ST What is the best opposing argument you’ve encountered on the ST that challenged your perspective?

@godisawesome made it quite clear with regards to talking about complainers and gushers etc. I will just leave it I made my point and there are plenty on the forum that have had similar experiences that I have had here.

When it comes to Rey being a deeply empathic and compassionate person that is essentially head canon. We see one act of compassion from Rey and that is with regards to BB-8 which makes sense as she has a connection to machinery being a scavenger and being alone on Jakku. She is not compasionate or empathetic to Finn until they go through a life and death experience together. Saying that she is deeply empathic and compassionate towards everyone is not something that TFA makes clear at all. She even considers selling BB-8 for food. Also if you want to talk about 'canon' everything that LFL released around TFA asserts that Rey is a hardened scavenger that had been betrayed by those she had connections with and doesn't have this deep sense of empathy and compassion your talking about. It's definitely something you can argue if you choose and are entitled to that interpretation but it is your 'head canon' LFL in the expanded materials has said otherwise

If we are discussing the films and what is and is not canon TROS made that interpretation of Reylo canon a whole tone of people took the romantic angle and LFL decided it was canon if RJ didn't mean for to have that type of connection well he failed utterly. So yes it's Canon you may not like it but Disney decided it was the correct interpretations.

With regards to any connection being established in TFA that was not clear at all in that film. Kylo invaded her mind and she was able to turn that probe around on him due to her strength in the force. There were so many ways they could have gone with it and in TLJ it was Snoke that made the connection so it was not something that was established in TFA. As per the canon of the ST yes they are connected because of the incredibly poorly explained deux ex machina the Dyad concept that was introduced. The compassionate and good hearted women trying to fix the broken man for paper thin reasons is a sexist trope period. Even if there is no romantic angle that's what we get is good women tries to save bad man even when she has no reason to......

Why would Abrams have said anything he was not under contract with Disney the time and presumably would like to be under contract with them again so he just supported the film and kept his mouth shut. His friends and people that worked with him did not and quoted him as not being happy with TLJ after seeing TROS you can tell he wasn't trying to build off of TLJ but what he had originally had outlined for the ST in some shape or form. KK is the only person that could have made Johnson say anything and from what we have heard TFA was not a smooth experience for either of them and JJ had turned down doing the entire trilogy so why is he going to complain. It would make no sense at all and just hurt his future employment opportunities in Hollywood as it was his choice not the be the 'guy'

Your the one that started discussing intent which is something that we only learn from behind the scenes interviews, etc. Also the line wasn't really delivered as a joke but hey if you took it as one that's your interpretation of it. Also the way you replied to me was very condescending on that question just like you say all of the 'haters' do.... yet people that love the ST never do it..... okay. In any case I said my part and it's time for me to bow out of this thread there really isn't any type of positive discussion going on in here.

 

Group hug everyone. At 6 feet with masks.

 

Okay one last thing I was very proud of my god daughter when she said that Rey was an idiot for believing in Kylo after everything he did to her and that she no longer considered her a role model. I was also very sad that the film had destroyed her favorite Star Wars character for her.

 

If you don't mind my asking, how old was your god daughter when she said that? I feel like my kid is too young to think about what she is seeing and instead will just accept it. I don't want TLJ resting somewhere in her subconscious and then re-emerging once she starts dating.

 

You might be suprised at how intelligent and capable of forming their own, well-informed opinions young children can be.

At any rate the chances of your daughter modeling her future dating life around Kylo Ren and Rey are probobly about as likely as peaple stealing cars and commiting murder becuase of playing GTA. Even my neice, who has a huge crush on Kylo and think's he's awsome, relizes that he's a bad person whose mean to Rey and accepts that if he were real she would'nt like him.

Well, your the parent so it's up to you what your child watches at this stage in their life. But personally I don't see anything wrong with letting my nine-year old neice watch the story of a heroic person whose capable of seeing the best in peaple even when their at their worst and does'nt let what they've been through becuase their a strong and determind person, and she really liked the part of the story were the horrible person accepted what they really where, owned up to it and resolved to do whatever was possible to set things right even though they knew they were beyond saving.

See? These movies mean different things to different peaple - and who knows, maybe someday your daughter will finally end up watching them and won't see them the same way you did; after all, my neice does'nt view the PT the same way me and her dad do.

Honest question, but do you at least accept and aknoweldge that not everyone shares you and your godaughters veiws? And that some children feel otherwise? For instance my goddaughter (my beforementioned neice) feels exactly the opposite about the ST as yours, and I'd like to think you don't think that my neice's view is less valid then your daughters (becuase I don't think the view of yours is any less valid then those of mine*).

*and likewise, even though I disagree with your belief that the ST designed with sexist traits in it, I don't think your view that it was is invalid or dispute that you saw them/feel they existed (and I would hope you don't dispute that I and others did not see the same thing you and others did).

Oh, don't be so hard on yourself. I should have reconized just my the title of the thread how things would go down

I mean, that's essentially the reason I had to quite the Finn thread (and the only reason I did'nt do it sooner was I did'nt want to ditch the other peaple who shared my opinion, as I felt I was abandoning them and just contributing to the creation of an echo-chamber)

Problem is I don't want to get a reputation as the "forum nark" and gain a reputation for targeting peaple and cuasing drama.

If your not getting paid, why do it?

It's the ability to post in big, colorful letters and the fact that they let you put a fancy frame around your name, is'nt it?

 

Can you explain in more detail how she feels so i can respond appropriately. To give you an example if someone tells me that Bella Sean and Edward had a healthy relationship in Twilight then no i will never accept that opinion as a good and healthy opinion as it teaches young girls terrible lessons that have been deconstructed by some fantastic feminist critics. I would need to know more to give an accurate response.

 

I explained it in my qoute to flight right above my qoute to you.

But personally I don't see anything wrong with letting my nine-year old neice watch the story of a heroic person whose capable of seeing the best in peaple even when their at their worst and does'nt let what they've been through becuase their a strong and determind person, and she really liked the part of the story were the horrible person accepted what they really where, owned up to it and resolved to do whatever was possible to set things right even though they knew they were beyond saving.

She thought Rey was a heroic person who tried to see the best in peaple when they were at their worst and found her to be a strong and determined character becuase of how she perservered in spite of all the bad things she went through, and she liked how in the end Kylo faced up and reconized what he was and resolved. Surely that's as valid a way to view the films as any others?

I've never watched (or read) Twilight*, and I'm inclined to agree with you regarding your view of it. However I had a girlfriend back in high school who loved the movies (I'm not really sure why, so don't ask, but I'd imagine that it had to bo with something stupid and base), and I would never have/never did tell her that she was wrong for veiwing it way she did (even though I definantly felt her interpretation of it was incorrect). Similerly I would never tell my cousin (whose pretty feminist) that she's wrong for enjoying Fifty Shades of Grey*.

**not that I think the ST or Rey and Kylo's relationship is equivilent to either one of those films or the characters in them, but that's really besides the point.

 

She was 13 when she rejected Rey as her hero and was 11 when she fell in love with the character. It was seeing her just believe in Kylo after all off the terrible things he did to her that just destroyed her image of the character.

Sorry I missed your explanation your nieces view of the ST (was helping my father in law when I replied). Her perspective on how Rey is dealing with Kylo is fine because of the innocence that she is looking at their relationship from and a good person trying to help someone see the error of their ways. So yes that's a valid opinion of the ST and not one that I would dispute. I would however ensure that if someone was being terrible to her as Kylo was to Rey in TFA that she not think it's a good place to start trying to help out said individual.

With regards to people liking Twilight and Fifty Shades if people want to love it hey that's cool everyone can like things even if it's just for entertainment value that doesn't necessarily support their beliefs in every day life. It gets problematic when they think that those things are actually positive healthy depictions of relationships etc.

I have a friend who is very feminist and in college she let me get away with saying things having an attitude that she would not let some of my other close friends get away with. She let me get away with it because she knew that I was joking and that when I said things that would be offensive from someone else that I would never disrespect or mistreat her and she could just fire back at me in a way that would antagonize other people. Where as if it was from one of my other friends she would stop it right there since because of the things they did she was 100% sure that they were not necessarily joking. I treated her like she was one of the 'guys' and always had her back so she didn't expect me to maintain a standard she had with a lot of other people I also think she liked being in a safe space to let her hair down and not have someone try to take advantage of her if she decided to just relax and act a little out of character for the fun of it. It's healthy for people to have the odd friendships, entertainments or spaces that don't always confirm to their norm we are human beings we are filled with contradictions. We just want to make sure that those things are still safe spaces and won't lead to serious problems down the road.

 

That's rough. At least she's old enough to process all of that. I think the real damage (as far as Rey's character) was done in TROS. Having Rey have to deal with falling for the wrong guy was a decent arc for her and her looking at Kylo through the force at the end of TLJ and then slamming the Falcon's door shut right in his face, was a nice touch. But then, thanks to ol' JJ, she's right back at it again for IX.

 

Don't mention it, life's more importent then this silly forum anyway.

I think the key here is how one viewed TFA (or rather, Rey and Kylo's characterization/dynamic in it), as I've noticed that the varying ways peaple seem to view the characters in the next two films seem to be tied to that*.

For instance you disputed Rey's compassion/empathy earlier, pointing out that she only trusted Finn after they had been through a life-or-death struggle and almost sold BB-8, but to somebody who watched TFA and saw her decided to shelter BB-8 within seconds of meeting him and apparently abandon all suspicion of Finn as soon as he told her (falsely) that he was a member of the Resistence (she did'nt even seem made later when she found out he had lied), could you see why it might not be so hard to see why think the Kylo/Rey dynamic makes sense in TLJ (especially since we don't view it as "instant, unconditional trust" but rather "conditional trust based not on a promise from Kylo, but rather desperation and a false belief in the intergity of Force visions").

*if you mean "her" as my neice, not Rey, then I don't have to do that. Not only is my neice well aware that Kylo is a horrible person and is able to seperate fiction from reality, but she's not the kind of person who would allow someone to treat them that way in real life; I once asked her what you do when a stranger asks you to come with them, and her response was'nt "go for help" or "run away" it was "pin them against the wall by the neck and beat the crap out of them."

I think if a person has reached the point were they can't seperate entertainment from reality and/or are letting fiction influance how they handle their own real-life relationships then their probobly well beyond the point were one can hold the fiction responsable for their actions.

If this is in reference to my cousin, I should point out she's not a "Feminist" in the sense of a person who is an activist and goes around saying she's a feminist and trying to change the world, but rather a "feminist" in the sense that she's a progressive woman who believes in equal rights and standerds for genders (technically, if we're defining feminist as simple "a person who believes in equal rights and standerds for genders" then so am I), so perhaps she's not inclinded to look for/see the same kind of issues in movies as other peaple might be (she's also in he forties, so grew up in a different generation as other woman who might be watching these movies, so I assume that might factor into it with some peaple).

I'm pretty sure she's not watching Fifty Shades for the message (or lack theiroff) anyway, but rather for reasons I'd really rather not think about, and honestly I'm sure that's the case for a lot of peaple who watch those movies and Twilight; are'nt those sort of movies essentially the modern day versions of the trashy romance novels with the Fabio-looking dudes that they sell in the magazine isle at CVS?

 

IMHO, as far as the ST goes, if you were willing to go along for the ride and not ask too many questions, then it was probably a fun trip. You got to see all your old friends again and meet a few new ones on the way.

 

It sounds like your family has everything quite well handled then. For example one of my friends daughters admires Rey and is often trying to fix people she watches fiction and has the problem of romanticising the trashy relationships. Needless to say she is always making poor choices with regards a lot of the relationships she pursues. Now it all comes from a good place but man does she make things hard on herself.

 

I never said peaple who dislike Rey and Kylo were having a hard time separating fantasy from reality, I said the kind of peaple who are going to watch the movie and then be influanced to go out and try and emulate that kind of relationship are.

But on the flip side, if one does'nt subscribe to the notion that Reylo is a thing, or think that Luke wanting to do the same thing with Vader is meaningfully different just becuase they were related, then there's really nothing to consider an issue.

For me, it comes down to two questions; did I read Rey and Kylo's interactions as romantic and do I see evidence of romance in canon? The answer to question 1 is "yes, but only in the form of the kiss" while the answer to 2 is "no, and the one thing I see as evidence of romance (the kiss) has been stated in a canon source to be explicitly non-romantic." So speaking for myself I don't have to worry about being disturbed about Reylo when watching the ST becuase I don't see any evidence of it save for one thing, and I know that one thing is'nt romantic becuase it's been clarified as such elsewhere in the canon; others milage may vary, though.

And beyond Reylo, well, let's just say that while I know you hold the opinion that Luke wanting to see the good in Vader is more valid becuase the pair are related, if I held the same opinion I'd be a hypocrite. Again, milage may vary.

That's a good way of looking at it, but speaking for myself I rarely go into any movie that looking to ask questions or not have fun (unless I know it's the kind of film were your supposed to do that), so I was never expecting anything out of the ST other then what I got (or less then what I got, in some cases).

I have to wonder what the correlation between those who enjoyed the ST and those had high expectations for the films/let their expectations take hold of them. I have a friend who rarely enjoys new video games anymore becuase he always allows himself to get super hyped and never tries to curb his enthusiasm but rather lets it (and his expectations) run wild, I'd imagine this might be something like that.

Hahaha, yeah well you would'nt say that if you knew them

I know peaple like that (to ones who try to fix peaple, not the ones who romanticise trashy relationships, though I do know peaple like that too). I don't think it's an inherintely bad thing, but I suppose everyone has different standards and expecations.

As for Rey specifically if she kept trying to change Kylo after he burned her I'd probobly think their was something wrong with her, but she does'nt do that and TROS makes it clear that she had given up on him until he showed up on Exegol to save her, so as far as I'm concerned she learned her lesson from the error in judgment she made in TLJ*.

*it's actually kinda like a flip Luke/Vader now that I think about it, becuase Luke did'nt think Vader could be saved in ESB and then tried to save him in ROTJ becuase he (correctly) believed he could be, while Rey thought Kylo could be saved in TLJ but then thought (incorrectly) that he was beyond saving in TROS. Kind of a nice symmetry, IMO (even if it clearly was'nt intentional).

 

I think it's one of the reasons why Lucasfilm has pulled back on its ST content. They can see the issues it's created and now realise they need to reset. My kids have absolutely no interest in the ST, even though I've always been enthustaistic about them having 'their' Star Wars... even if it was the ST. But for them, they just find that particular world dull and un-engaging (they did like Kylo in TFA and BB8 though). However, thankfully, they discovered The Mandalorian... which channels the essence/the soul of what Star Wars should be (the creative, the thematic and the world building) infinitely better than the ST (IMHO).

 

I've never liked this argument personally. The argument that the kiss "has been stated in a canon source to be explicitly non-romantic" is ... well, its just plain old not true. That's a narrative that's been promulgated by people based off of taking a snippet of a quote from the novelization ("a kiss of gratitude") and ignoring its copious, obviously romantic surrounding context. Everyone understands that women don't make a habit of eating a man's face for several seconds at a time in a non-romantic way to say thank you. It's an explicitly sexual act.

The author of the novelization herself rubbished this interpretation on twitter.

And frankly, only a fraction of the fandom, never mind the general audience ever even reads the novelization. Everyone knows what a kiss like that means in a movie.

(And its just fine, I should say. It's a fantasy story and a very vanilla enemies to lovers romance tease isn't going to hurt anyone. I was actually pleasantly surprised TROS had the balls to actually go there, if anything. One of the few bright points of actually sticking its neck out in that film IMO.)

 

That's one way to interpret it, but there's always more than one way to interpret a story. I've seen enough people with a positive view of the Reylo story to see that they interpret it in a very uplifting way that doesn't accept claims of 'toxicity' at all, and instead views it as a positive and empowering story for all parties.

There are plenty of people who will insist up and down that Darth Vader didn't 'deserve' to get redeemed because he only did it out of selfish love for his son and that killing the Emperor doesn't erase his crimes, and that this is a harmful message etc etc. It's a viewpoint I understand, but not one I agree with.

 

The thing is I never read anything else in Rey's relationship as being "obviously romantic." I'm hardly the only one, either. Really the kiss is the only explicitly romantic thing I saw in the films (hence a big reason of why it shocked me so much), and from were I'm sitting it just seems like Carson was doing damage control for Abram's troublesome optics.

"Of course I'm not confirming or denying anything."

IMO seems more likely Carson his just trolling the peaple who still want to ingore the fact that her book set the matter stright; if it was about love not only would I expect her to have said it was a kiss of that (why beat around the bush - gratitude is just one of several discriptors she used for the kiss, and it seems suspect to claim it was a kiss of love when love/romance ect was pointedly not one of them), but Kylo would have thought about Rey romanaticly in his final moments and Rey would have been way more torn up afterwards (instead of basically going "eh, that's to bad, but I barely knew the guy."). Remeber, we have acess to their POVs freqently thanks to the new-EU, and to my best recollection neither has ever thought of the other romantically (I could be wrong), which seems unlikely if they were in love.

It does'nt really matter if a billion peaple or nobody has read it, canon is canon.

But your right. Everyone knows what a kiss like that is supposed to mean, which is why I begrudingly had to accept Reylo for a while until Carson's book came out and did damage control. Now, is it stupid that Rey gave a full-on liplock of "gratitude?" Yes, it's dumb, but Carson was'nt able to change the film, only give a context behind what happened in it, and (IMO thankfully) that context was "kiss of gratitude."

I dunno, maybe it's best this way; the peaple who saw Reylo in the earlier films and don't think the book's qoute dispoves anything (or hav'nt read it and don't know about it) can still have their love story, while the peaple who dislike Reylo can be happy that it's never been explicitly stated to be a canon fact.

You think Rey's character existed soley to fix a bad man and cope with being mistreated? No offense, but if that's the case you must have fast-forwarded through huge chunks of the ST.

Also, at what point does a person wanting to help anouther person become sexist? Is it just becuase Rey is a girl and Kylo is a guy? If so then under such restictions it should be impossible for female characters to ever show compassion/want to help or see the good in bad male characters, no? I know more then a few woman who like to see the best in peaple and try and fix them (men or otherwise), are they sexist, becuase it seems to me their just compassionate?

But if your not going to enjoy a movie in the first place, especially if it has elemants that repulse you (fantasy or otherwise) why go see it? If you don't enjoy it to the point of repulsion, maybe the film just was'nt made for you?

You know there's a whole segment of the fandom who watch Star Wars and think that the Empire was preferable to the Republic/Rebellion/New Republic, right?

Heck, even I'm guilty of romanticising the Legends Remnant/Felpire to a degree (it's my inner Bonapartist).

How about this?

She was'nt trying to "fix" Kylo, she was desperate for an alternative means to fight the first order, thought him turning was a garenteed fact and believed (mistakenly) that she was acting strategicly, despite Luke's warnings otherwise. I mean, that's basically what TLJ says - nowhere in the movie does it say she's doing what she's doing based on their genders, would'nt do the same thing if their genders were flipped or the same or becuase she wants to fix him (heck, the fact that she thinks he's already turned on his own indicates she thinks he's fixed himself).

Furthermore Rey never compramised her personal values; when it became clear that Kylo was'nt going to turn as her vision had led her to believe and was going to keep being evil and hurting peaple she went right back to opposing him, to the point were she tried to attack him to protect her friends, and abandoned all belief that he could be saved, remaining comitted all throughout the following film until he showed up to save her at the end (and even at that point she admitted, following his death, that she would never forgive him for what he had done).

 

Structure wise, it existing only in TLJ and never coming up again I think would not strong writing, to me. TLJ is the movie that, for no real reason that I can tell, had it happen first, like that, to me.

 

If you felt gaslighted then I'm really, geniunly sorry, becuase I was'nt trying to. I think you may have misunderstood my argument in that case, becuase I'm not arguing that "good girl fixes bad boy through love/romance" is sexist, I'm arguing that "person shows compassion to other person" is not sexist. As I explain a few posts below our perspecive of the dynamic seem to be based on different starting points/views of the film.

I don't expect you - or desire - to change your mind, but this is a thread about trying to change each others perspective through arguments and you pointed out that you had yet to see an argument to do that, so I offered one. If your not willing to try to be open-minded, challange your views and see the other side then what's the point of being on this thread?

Firstly, Rey's not trying to do it soley for compassion (arguably, given the way the film presents things, she would'nt have helped him at all if her compassion was the only factor at play) and secondly, would you also find it sexist if the only difference was the genders were flipped or the same?

Also, peaple do that all the time in real life. It's not a trope; being a compassionate person (not woman, not man, person), even to the point of your own detriment, is not sexist, it's Human.

Yes, those are sexist tropes.

But her's the thing; when are they brought up in TLJ? That's the problem I'm having understanding your logic - not only are none of those points brought up, but we are given no reason to think things would change if Rey and Kylo's respective genders were flipped or the same or that Rey's actions are based on her gender in any way.

See, I think a big problem is that you view the dynamic in TLJ as being "woman tries to fix man becuase she think's its her purpose in life and is in love with him" and I view it as "person tries to help other person becuase they see them turning on their own in a vision." Your focused on the genders and the assumption they are in love - two things that the movie never once brings up, while I'm not. You see it as being based around man/woman/fixing/love while I see it as being based on person/person/compassion/strategy.

And I should point out that a lot of peaple think the storyline in TLJ worked just fine, and that includes those who felt it was construed as romantic and those who did'nt. I get it did'nt work for you and that you find it sexist, and I appreciate that (I really do), but you only get to decide what works for you personally, not what works for everyone else and what the rest of the world considers sexist; my roommate is a woman and not only did she like TLJ just fine, but she did'nt see anything sexist in Rey's actions, so unless your suggesting you know better then her (and I don't think you are, based on what I understand about you from our previous interactions) then clearly your standerds on what consitutes "making a story work/sexist tropes" are not universal.

Most heroes reach points of desperation at one point or anouther.

Luke was desperate to save Han and Leia, and so he ran blindly to Bespin even though he knew it was a trap, and Anakin fell to the dark side becuase he was desperate to save Padme and his unborn children, while the cast of Rogue One went to Scarif becuase they were desperate to get the Death Star plans. Frodo trusted Gollum becuase he was desperate, and the rest of the fellowship went to the Black Gate even though they knew they would probobly die becuase they were desperate to buy Frodo and Sam time to get to Mount Doom, Catelyn Stark was desperate to save her daughters, so went behind her sons back to release a valuable hostage in the hope of enacting a prisoner exchange, ect, ect...

Being driven to the point of desperation at one point or anouther is a pretty common thing for heroes to go through, and is'nt mutally exclusive with them being independent or self-sufficient.

Well, we all have different standerds, but speaking for just myself I find...

Self-sufficancy.
Ingenuity.
Honor.
A deep sense of empathy/compassion.
A strong sense of determination.
Strength, both actual, spiritual and moral.

...to be personal values/traits I can accept.

I was refering more to the hypothtical you seemed to be broching; that you know you find a movie in question distasteful to the point of finding it repulsive, why would you go watch it?

Obviusly you would'nt know if you found a movie distasteful if you had'nt seen it/heard anything to turn you off, but I though you were saying you were going to watch a movie that you knew you found distasteful.

Sure, it's an example of "not strong" writing, I'm pretty sure that's what @FightoftheForgotten was saying (and, suprisingly, I actually agree with his opinion for once). But it's an example of it being the case with TROS, not TLJ.

To her credit (I should say "to Abram's credit," but I don't want to), she spends the entire movie viserally hating Kylo up until he shows up at the end to sacrafice himself to help defeat Palpatine, and only does'nt kill him becuase of Leia, so as much as they did their best to ingore TLJ they did'nt totally abandon that particuler setup.

Shame they had to ruin it (IMO) with the kiss, though.