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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by uperduper, May 9, 2015.

  1. Tito-Wan Kenobi

    Tito-Wan Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 14, 2015
    I disagree with that logic. If so, Obi-Wan would have had a great gash on his side (I'm exaggerating of course). It seems difficult to believe that in order for my theory to be correct the Force Ghost would be of a scarred and burnt Anakin. It's a spirit!! There are obvious religious connotations here, including how we are mended after death, etc (Yoda doesn't keep on coughing; Does Qui-Gon have a hole in his stomach? Again, I'm just exaggerating).

    But I must reject the notion that Anakin lay dormant for 23 years as in he did not age. It's the same body! So when Luke removed his helmet at the end of ROTJ we are seeing a 20ish year old Anakin? Can't be. Again, it's a spirit! But something must account for the fact that it was Anakin at the end of ROTJ. I would have settled for a older-looking Christiansen figure. I don't mind the continuity thing, I mind the age issue which leaves the door opened for the idea that Anakin did not come back at the end of ROTJ and before dying.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The Sixth Sense follows the "ghosts bear the injuries that killed them" paradigm, at least.
     
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  3. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Obi-Wan and Yoda both reverted to the way Luke remembered them when they were alive. Luke chose to remember Anakin as the good man he once was, and so that was how Anakin chose to appear to him as a ghost. It's about what the imagery means to Luke, and how Anakin saw himself in his last moments. Again, the final scene is about things coming full circle. Luke is now where Anakin was in Episode III, only Luke made the right choice this time around.


    It's a metaphor. Of course his body aged.
     
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  4. Tito-Wan Kenobi

    Tito-Wan Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 14, 2015
    Honest question: on what do we base the proposition that Force Ghosts appear as we imagine them to? (I guess some would point out that Leia seems not to see the Ghosts, yet that does not require the conclusion that Force Ghosts take the shape the onlooker chooses). From what Yoda says about Qui-Gon at the end of ROTS, it would seem that manifestation is an ability of the spirit itself, not the living person to which it appears.

    The point remains: by using a younger Anakin, older Anakin is taken out of the equation, as if Anakin's life ended in ROTS. It did not, it ended facing his son on the Death Star. And no, Sixth Sense rule don't seem to apply to Star Wars haha.
     
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  5. Chrisf001

    Chrisf001 Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    There aren't explicit rules on what form a person takes when joining the force, at least per the movies. It also gets a little muddy since the exact method Obi-wan and Yoda use (consciously join the force) is different from Anakin (unclear exactly how he does so). Who knows if the same rules apply to both?

    I think Anakin has some say in what form he takes when joining the force. And he chooses his younger Jedi self.

    Redemption implies atoning for the wrongs you've committed. For me, there's no redemption of Anakin Skywalker. His one 'right' of stopping the Emperor (in order to save a family member) does not erase the wrongs of the last twenty years.
     
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  6. ThisHurricane

    ThisHurricane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Hayden ghost is better. Shaw was never anakin in a movie centred around the character. A older anakin would look like Hayden. Hayden doesent look any older fhan he does in rots but its not a big problem. Becauss it also represents thier old friend is back and he still looks like the Anakin Obi and Yoda remember not Vadar. If they wanted they could get Hayden back and do it again because hes older now.
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Physically that was Vader laying there. Internally is a whole different story. It's like Jacob Marley from "A Christmas Carol". He didn't die with chains wrapped around him, but his soul was heavy with the chains due to his greed and selfishness that upon death, his soul became trapped by his chains which were now visible. In this regard, Anakin as a younger man is freed from the greed and selfishness of Vader.

    Anakin is redeemed not because he rights the wrongs, but because he became a good man again. Redemption doesn't always mean the righting of wrongs, but it also means that you restore something or someone to a state that was once desired. To bring back to good fortune. Luke believed that his father was a good man still and Anakin finally proved him right.
     
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  8. Tito-Wan Kenobi

    Tito-Wan Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 14, 2015
    That's the key issue: who was lying there. I for one, don't think it was Vader. At that point, Vader was gone, Anakin was back. He is the one who smiles to Luke before dying. Vader's physical death did not liberate Anakin. His redemption by saving his son by destroying the Emperor killed Vader. From that moment one, Anakin was inside the suit. That's the whole point of the evident redemption story in the Star Wars saga.

    If, therefore, you believe it was Vader who died in the end, then the change makes sense. If not, like me, then the change really fails.
     
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  9. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Acting as though Vader and Anakin are different people seems to be at the heart of this and that stems from denial. They are one and the same. Anakin died after gazing upon his son.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It's not a case of denial. It is the spiritual aspect of the story. Read the follow passage again.

    "In addition to the Zen-like Force that "surrounds us and penetrates us...(and) binds the galaxy together," as Obi-wan tells Luke, another Eastern religious element can be found in Vader's resemblance to demons that, in the Buddhist tradition, were at one time human and, through the actions of Buddha or his followers, are freed from their demonic state.

    They usually wind up dying and through death are released from their demonic state. Again, that's a parallel to Vader, who is only freed at the point of his death."

    --Shanti Fader, USA Today article and "Star Wars And Philosophy."


    See the comparison? Anakin is taken over by the dark side and becomes Vader. He is in many ways, a demon. He's not a snarl toothed creature, but he is not the good man that he was. The closest to the demon is the yellow eyes. That part of him is trapped, buried deep down. When his physical body dies and is destroyed, his true self emerges and it is that of the younger man who is whole and hale.

    [​IMG]

    The shell.

    [​IMG]

    The true self.
     
  11. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    The spiritual aspect of the story was there in 1983. The true self was also there in 1983. Unless we're missing something, Shanti's quote isn't addressing the change from Hayden to Shaw.

    What makes Hayden more true than Shaw? So far, the reasoning I'm seeing is very superficial. At least with Shaw, it was the Anakin who'd saved Luke just seen a few scenes earlier and one who fits better with an old Obi-Wan based on what we learned about Force Ghost-ing (which wasn't much).
     
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  12. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    I have no problem with Hayden Christensen at the end of ROTJ. To be honest, I prefer him than Sebastian Shaw. But, I must say that I was surprised to see him when I saw ROTJ for the first time on DVD (2004 edition), since I was expecting someone else because the movie was made in 1983, before the prequels. But that change didn't bother me.

    The only change that really bothers me in this movie is in the 2011 Blu-Ray edition when they've added the Darth Vader's "No" at the end. I've said earlier on another thread that I didn't want to buy the Blu-Rays mainly because of that change. But recently, after re watching for the first time in years my old DVDs and finding out that the quality of the picture seemed crappy on a 1080p screen, I had no choice but to buy the Blu-Rays of the complete saga and deal with that change! [face_phbbbbt] But the more I think about it, the less that change bothers me, but still...

    Now, going back on the topic, on this video Dave Filoni, the director of The Clone Wars series and Rebels, gives an explanation of how young Anakin (played by Hayden), came back as a ghost spirit at the end of ROTJ after asking George Lucas and why, for him since he likes that change, it does make sense:

     
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  13. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    I don't really see how the Shaw ghost is less the 'true self' than the Christensen one. He's happy, demon free and able bodied. He's just older.
     
  14. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    To say that an old looking ghost doesn't make sense is to take it a bit too far, IMO. Both ghosts make sense to me.

    SS ghost: Anakin's soul has been healed.

    HC ghost: Anakin has regained his soul.

    I can see why some of us prefer the former and I personally don't have a problem with that version, but I really like the feeling I get from seeing Hayden in that scene. Seeing that familiar face makes his return to the light more emotional for me as a viewer. It feels like reuniting with a long lost friend. Even if it's a brief reunion, it feels good to know that he's back; to know that he's Anakin again.
    And yes, I realize that that's true even if he looks older, but again, it feels emotionally correct to have him look like Hayden.
     
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  15. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    You only feel rewarded about Hayden if you liked the prequel Anakin. If you didn't and found him annoying or even despicable, you are well ****ed. He's not the most popular character in cinematic history, there are many who dislike him.
     
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  16. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    ...and many who adore him. The same can be said about virtually any fictional character, to varying degrees. There is not one single aspect of any work of fiction that everyone likes. At the end of the day, it comes down to taste.
    If you loathe the young Anakin, well, that's a shame. No matter what his ghost looks like, though, he has that history. His younger self is part of his being. That is Anakin, like it or not.
     
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  17. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    "Like it or not"

    The point many are making is that before Hayden was retroactively inserted into the scene (without Hayden Christensen even knowing about it!!!), there was no controversy over the ghost scene. Pretty much everyone (a few exceptions nonwithstanding) was happy. The change caused a needless divide in the viewership, which is pretty much universally bad.

    It will also confuse everyone who watches Star Wars for the first time in release order. Now you're almost forced to begin with the prequels, which of course ruins the big reveal in TESB.
     
  18. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    ...but preserves the huge shocker that is ROTS.

    I honestly doubt that it would be that confusing. If anything, it would make them all the more curious about Episodes I-III.

    It is, of course, unfortunate that this has caused further grievances, but if it's what GL really wants, then I say go for it.

    Another point that I wanted to make: The presence of Hayden strengthens the feeling that the person who became Darth Vader in ROTS is the person who finally learned his lesson and overcame the dark side. That's another positive effect of having his face there.
     
  19. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    What? How does this work? It would only make them more curious if they start googling for it and that should never be necessary for enjoying a movie. Never ever.

    Just as he is entitled to edit his films (even though I critizise that he was restricting access to the OOT), I am entitled to not give a **** about his opinion.

    Make a thread titled "what is right about Hayden in ROTJ", because this hasn't anything to do with the question asked by the OP.
     
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  20. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    It is very closely related to the topic. If you feel differently, I suggest you report my posts - or just stop responding, as I'm not prone to spamming.
    Either way, we have different opinions and that's fine. No need to get worked up over it.
     
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    I'm not sure how fine this is, since apologists could have an adverse effect on the chance to get an OOT release, but okay, agree to disagree.
     
  22. Super_Mace

    Super_Mace Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2003
    The change was stupid. Keep SS.
     
  23. RC-2473

    RC-2473 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2015
    SS makes more sense 'cause there's old Obi-Wan and old(er) Yoda and then WTF young Anakin? it feels out of place in every way. not just because of the age gap, but we get two people who appear differently from their younger selves and then we get this ghost of someone who appears exactly as he did 23 years earlier. you'd expect him to look different, older and wiser compared to the young version of himself. plus aesthetically it just feels like a copy and paste of PT era stuff into the film (which it is) and it's just kind of awkward.

    George should do a special edition of TPM which is exactly the same except every reference to midichlorians is removeed HMU.
     
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  24. Super_Mace

    Super_Mace Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2003
    ^ Yup.

    Not to mention Hayden's weird, creepy molester stare.
     
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  25. ThisHurricane

    ThisHurricane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Its not that hard to tell that its lukes dad whether its hayden or shaw at the end of rotj. Also im in highschool and the only thing anybody here knows about SW is the prequels. So if there are people who havent seen them yet and dont read sw forums there probably gonna start with phantom menace anyway since its titled episode 1. So they get to see the Anakin they know (Hayden) get redeemed and watch the saga the way creator intended for it to be watched.