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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by uperduper, May 9, 2015.

  1. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    This has nothing to do with "want". One injury is healed, while one is not. Therefore, there is a lack of consistency in what gets healed. That is a fact.
    No. Whoever "they" refers to simply prefer the original ghost and think it works better for the story. Your argument is that the older ghost "never existed". The point that you seem to have trouble understanding is that the younger ghost never existed either since we've never seen young Anakin looking like that.

    Now, for some reason, whenever someone points out this problem in your logic, you seem to think that they "want" or "should want" the older ghost to have scars or whatever; that is not true. Please stop trying to make that claim. Whenever anybody brings up the "healed ghost" points, it is simply to illustrate why your argument falls apart; it does not mean that they "want" the ghost to have certain scars.
    Obviously Lucas has done it his way. That's not some kind of shocking revelation. What we're discussing here, is what works better for the story. I know Lucas did it his way and likes the young ghost better, but I disagree and think the older ghost worked better. That's what this entire discussion is about. Simply saying that "these are Lucas movies and he has it his way" is not an argument at all about which works better. Remember, this is not a thread discussing the history of what Lucas did or didn't do. This is an opininated thread about what we individually think works better and why.
    Again.....no. The "we've never seen him like that" is your argument. It is not my argument. And by using that argument, you are arguing against both ghosts since neither existed as we see them in their ghost forms.

    My argument is that the older ghost works better for thematic reasons, feels more consistent with the age at which he died, and visually fits with the older ghosts next to him.
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    As has been pointed out to you several times but you seem unable to grasp, it is a matter of which ghost works better for story, character and thematic reasons.
    And I and others have explained those reasons.
    It works better for the Anakin character and it shows the full journey that the character has been on.
    Progression instead of regression.
    Consistency with the age he died and with the other ghosts.
    As a close to Luke's goal to save his father so having the image of the father he just saw and talked with instead of the image of Anakin before he was Luke's father.

    Also, keep saying "Lucas made it this way or wanted it this way." is redundant and adds nothing.
    We KNOW that Lucas changed it to this so obviously he wants it this way. That has never been in question.
    What is being discussed is what people think works best for story, character, setting and consistency reasons.
    So falling back on "Lucas wanted it this way" is not an argument as that has never been in doubt.

    Obi-Wan's ghost is not cut in half or has a big gash in his side.
    So that ghosts are healed of their wounds is established in the films.

    And what you also fail to grasp is that YOUR argument against the Shaw ghost is "Anakin never looked like that.". Which also invalidates the current Hayden ghost since he should be missing an arm.
    If you say that the arm grew back so now it works. Then people point out that he still has scars, so SOME wounds are healed but not others. This is very inconsistent.
    And if you don't have problem with ghost being healed, then the Shaw ghost works fine.
    His wounds are healed but he looks the age when he died. Simple.

    Wrong, Obi-Wan left his cloak and lightsabre but took the rest of his clothes with him.

    [/QUOTE]

    First, Anakin was far from innocent in AotC or RotS.
    After Tatooine he is now a murderer with the blood of children on his hands.
    You can argue that he hasn't fully turned yet but he is NOT innocent.
    Even before that, he still has issues with fear and being able to let go and isn't really learning what the Jedi try to teach him.
    In the first part of RotS he murders a captured Dooku.

    In both instances he does not really take responsibility for those actions and tell the other Jedi about them.

    Second, about Anakin becoming the person he could and should have been at Luke's age.
    Not only does this contradict your argument about innocence it also makes the Hayden ghost even more wrong.

    Anakin was NOT like that when he was that age.
    So now we get an image that is physically wrong, two arms and yet long hair, Anakin never looked like that.
    And it is also spiritually wrong as young Anakin was not the person he was at the end of his life. Young Anakin had not been able to let go of his fear of death, his hate and anger, his fear of change and overall inability to let go of things.

    His young self was very flawed, filled with fear and anger, had not really been able to learn the lessons the Jedi had tried to teach him.
    Old Anakin manged to do that, he did what his young self could not.
    His old self was the Jedi he never was when he was younger and thus it is a far better image at the end and standing with the other two Jedi.
    And it works better as the image of Luke's father, the Jedi.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  3. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    To be fair to both sides of the debate, I do recall - back when ROTJ was originally released in theaters - some making the argument that Anakin shouldn't have become a Force ghost at all. Admittedly, the argument was made more from a moral/ethical standpoint than from a 'logical' or 'how things work in the SW Universe' way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  4. Christus Regnet

    Christus Regnet Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2016
    I like that solution very much. Just take Anakin out of the scene. He returned from his wretched existence as Vader, died, and was given a jedi funeral with honor. He doesn't need to be a gghost.

    Or what if, instead of Hayden's Anakin, is was Jake Lloyd's Anakin with Yoda on this shoulders? Now that would be cool.

    If Luke returns as a spirit in the next film, what will he look like? Will he have two hands? Will he have blonde hair(ANH-RotJ), black hair(TLJ), or gray hair(TLJ)?
     
  5. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Luke's spirit will look exactly like the person Rey saw at the end of The Force Awakens, only with 2 human hands. It'll be the same as how Luke saw Obi-wan's spirit as the old man known as Ben Kenobi.
     
  6. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2010
    I think my headcanon way of including both is to think that it depends on who's looking at them. The Sebastian Anakin is the one Luke sees, and the Hayden Anakin is the one Obi-Wan and Yoda see.
     
  7. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2014
    Perhaps not exactly. Obi-Wan had a shimmering hue around his figure. Luke meanwhile in SoH could look like his illusion in TLJ - as to say, an improved force-appearance. In the "Book of the Sith" Luke wrote as a side note, that force ghosts should not intervene into the matters of the living beings. In The Trawn Trilogy the force ghost of Obi-Wan is telling him that he will wane soon to become one with the force forever. Maybe force ghosts are not that long-living like that of Vodo-Siosk Baas in "Dark Empire" to help Luke and Leia against Palpatine's clone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  8. Bring_My_Shuttle

    Bring_My_Shuttle Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2006
    The original film versions being eradicated does.
     
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  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I own multiple copies of the original versions. If they've been eradicated it's news to me.
     
  10. Darth Voldemort

    Darth Voldemort Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2014
    I don't have a problem with it so long as Evan McGregor replaced Alec Guinness. I mean the spirit is supposed to be eternal youth. The dark lord was defeated and Obi-Wan can be young again.

    And I also don't appreciate the inclusion of Jar Jar Binks at the end of ROTJ.

    I did state I am indifferent towards him in the prequels, but having him and Naboo in ROTJ is just a big no no for me. Not to mention the coloring of the 2004 editions and onwards are a flop.

    I'd prefer to find DVD copies of the 1997 special editions. I'd be happy with those.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  11. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    74 pages over Anakin's Force Ghost [face_party]

    I have no issue with Anakin being his younger self after his redemption. I think it's fitting, like most of the extra additions that Lucas added. My real question is..... how and when did Anakin learn how to transcend into the next life?

    Apparently that's a technique that was only re-discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn, most probably a millenium after it was last seen (aka in the Darth Bane novels). And then Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda were able to learn this technique, but it still remains a question of how Anakin was able to do that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  12. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2015
    You can find official VCDs of the 1997 special editions that will play in a DVD player. It is very unlikely that the 1997 versions will see anymore re-releases. Disney hasn't announced any such plans.
     
  13. xx_Anakin_xx

    xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Hayden IS Anakin Skywalker and for me, putting him at the end of ROTJ was perfect. It is the version I have retained to re-watch over and over. It made more sense that Anakin died and was reborn as a Jedi at the age he was at the time. The older Sith lord had no place in the Force.

    That said, I love James Earl Jones' voice as Vader - he is amazing.

    Obi-Wan showed him how according to the commentary and I like to think that it was simple for Anakin to learn so quickly and easier for him to achieve (unlike Yoda, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) because he was made of the Force (no Dad) and was just rejoining it. So it just came to him fast and easy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
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  14. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I'm an old school fan and for me it was a nice way to bridge the two trilogies. It was touching as well.
     
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  15. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    That's all well and good.....but he's Anakin when he dies, not a Sith Lord. Fact is, both versions of the ghost show idealized versions of Anakin at different ages: young Anakin's ghost displays a regenerated arm, while older Anakin's ghost regenerates multiple limbs and hair. To me, it's always made the most sense to have the ghost be the same guy who just died, just like it was with Obi-Wan and Yoda. Plus, the older ghost symbolizes progression and growth while the younger ghost symbolizes regression back to a person who was very unstable. That's one of the reasons why I never watch any versions of the movie from 2004 and onwards.
     
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Spot on and I would add that at the end, Anakin is a better jedi than he has ever been before.
    Only now does he finally learn to let go, only now is he enlightened.
    So having the older Anakin be the final image is a much better representation of the full character arc of Anakin Skywalker.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  17. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Seconded.

    I am a massive fan of ROTS, but when Anakin finds redemption he clearly reaches a level of enlightenment that he never reached in the PT.
     
  18. Master Jedi Fixxxer

    Master Jedi Fixxxer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 20, 2018
    When?

    At the end of ROTS Yoda sends Obi-Wan into exile on Tattooine to look over the boy, and also tells him that he has a mission for him. He also tells him that an old friend has learnt how to achieve immortality, and Obi-Wan realizes this is Qui-Gon. So Anakin could NOT have mastered this technique from any Jedi Master before turning into Darth Vader.

    ""An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force... Your old master.""

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_ghost

    This source says that Vader learned the technique from Darth Sidious... not sure how accurate it is, and where it comes from.
     
  19. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Only a Jedi can become a force-ghost.
    The Sith strive to achieve immortality in the physical world, yet ironically can't retain their identity on death like some Jedi do.

    According to supplemental material Obi-Wan taught Anakin from within the netherworld as Anakin was dying. As a reward for finally choosing the right path I believe.
     
  20. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    When many an audience have grown up with the Original ending with the Original actor i can understand why for many changing it to hayden may be abit annoying. it was a very late change to make from 1983 to 2005.

    In terms of what makes more sense... i think they are about the same personally.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  21. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think people are over analyzing this, as Lucas put it in as a way of making the two trilogies more cohesive. I saw ROTJ in 83 and had no problem with it.
     
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  22. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Well my great grandpappy Freddy Bob watched it and went "Wha, who's this here long haired twerp?" and then he died immediately afterwards of natural causes. We still haven't found his body.
     
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  23. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    You shouldn't have to make changes to existing films that were around a quarter of a century old to make a new set of prequel films fit those originals. Theres something wrong in the story telling of those prequels if you have to do that.
     
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  24. Sudooku

    Sudooku Jedi Master star 4

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    May 31, 2014
    Something wrong with the story telling? They can't just cast a younger clone of Sebastian Shaw to play Anakin during the PT. And GL wrote down that story long ago, so if you don't want to change that story at all, I don't see your point, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  25. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    I think you're missing the point totally about changing elements in the OT (not just this scene) to fit what they did with the PT if you think it just comes down to having a young Sebastian clone in the PT.

    What is depicted in the OT is the blueprint, the core of the story, the reference point, the Holy Grail that all else should match to. There is no excuse whatsoever for the films before and after not to marry up with the OT, without the need to change things.

    ROTJ was originally written with Anakin looking like he did at the end for a reason and they couldn't articulate why that was in the PT so they changed it. Revising film history. Thats just wrong.
     
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