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CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by uperduper, May 9, 2015.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    We're obviously not talking about physical bodies not aging. You know that.

    Anakin did not change or develop as Vader. That's the whole point. Arrested development of the soul.

    Moving on.

    Ben's ghost represents the person he was before he sustained mortal injuries. Anakin's ghost represents the person he was before he was fully consumed by Vader. The very obvious distinction here is that Ben did not spend decades inhabiting an alternate persona. Very simple. I think this must have been explained a hundred times by now.

    Wrong. Anakin is described as "elderly" when Luke takes his helmet off in the shooting script, not when he appears as a ghost. I am not aware of any publicly available version of the script that says what you claim.

    That's not my problem. The metaphorical explanation is the one the movie intends us to accept. Your problem is simply with the OT now.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  2. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2020
    Probably it's also a generational thing.

    Back when ROTJ was shot, people looked up to the elderly because they had more life experience, maturity and wisdom.
    Nowadays people are obsessed with eternal youth, so I can understand the preference for Hayden.
     
  3. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You said,
    Age is quite often used when talking about physical age. Don't blame me if you are not being clear.
    If Anakin's body aged the same decades as Obi-Wan, why would his ghost not show this?
    Why would someone not developing as a person have a young looking ghost/spirit?
    Do ghosts work on mental age?

    Except this is provably wrong.
    Compare Anakin in RotS, both before and after his turn with how Vader is in the OT.
    Young Anakin could be impatient, given to quick mood swings and could be quite argumentative.
    He placed value on rank and honors and was susceptible to flattery.
    He could also be a bit paranoid and irrational.

    Vader is much calmer, colder. Rank seems to hold less value to him, he does not care about empty pleasantries.
    Vader even changes over the course of the OT. In ESB he had plans for Luke and him to take over and rule as father and son. That seemed gone in RotJ. In ESB he killed Ozzel and Needa for failing him but he did not kill Piett at the end, who looked to be expecting it. In ANH and most of ESB, he is sure, determined, focused, less so in RotJ. He is conflicted, torn.

    In short, Anakin did change and evolve even after his turn and after getting put in the suit, the films show this.
    And if Anakin did not change or grow at all during the time as Vader then he has learned nothing, he still has all the same flaws he did when he was a young man, he still can not let go, he is still not at peace.
    I say that he did learn this, that when he died he was at peace, he was a better person, a better Jedi than he had been in his adult life. He saw the misstakes he made and regretted them.

    That Ben's ghost is supposed to be before him getting killed is not established, it could instead be his existence continuing in ghost form but with his wounds healed.
    Yoda died and then his body faded away so the same would apply to Obi-Wan. Vader's blade cut him, he died and then vanished.

    And Anakin's ghost as is, does not fit. If it is supposed to be how he looked just before he turned then he should be missing an arm but he does not. But he has the facial scar.
    So we have an Anakin that is a weird amalgamation of different times in his life. When last he had two arms, he had short hair and no facial scar. When he had long hair and the facial scar he was missing an arm.
    So the image makes no sense and you also have only some wounds being healed for unexplained reasons.

    Nope, the early draft, where Lukes father comes back in the flesh has this.
    "Old man", clearly not the age when he turned.

    So ORIGINALLY, Lucas first had Lukes father come back in the flesh as an old man, obviously after the turn and turn back.
    Then when the "come back to life" thing was removed you had only Yoda and Obi-Wan as ghosts, no Anakin.
    Then, after suggestion by the producer, the ghost of Anakin was added, looking old. Fairly late from what I know. The pyre scene was apparently a late addition as well.
    So there is nothing in what Lucas originally wanted that suggest that he wanted Anakin to appear pre-turn.
    He either appeared after his turn back or redemption or not at all. And when he did appear, his wounds were healed.

    Nope, the OT works mostly fine, slightly less so when Lucas started making random changes.
    But RotJ makes it super clear that Vader is Anakin, Anakin never went away, he never "died", he was always there, there was no Vader "persona". It was all him.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  4. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2020
    I think Shaw never represented a pre-Vader Anakin.
    He also doesn't look that much younger in RotJ compared to other roles he played in the 80s.
     
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  5. Hayden Anakin dont fit well the vibre of OT
     
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  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    You thought I was literally saying his body didn't age? No you didn't.

    Really? We've definitely been over this, you and me, multiple times over the course of years. I'm not saying it again.

    In this case, yes.

    Vader is just as impulsive and prone to outbursts of anger as Anakin. He has gained knowledge but not wisdom. He has developed neither spiritually nor emotionally. He has not grown as a person, as this would be antithetical to the message that is meant to be expressed by his condition. He has stagnated as a human being. He has let the machine take over.

    It is just as Joseph Campbell and George Lucas say. You, on the other hand, are mistaken.

    No, this is all wrong.

    LUKE
    I know, father.

    VADER
    So, you have accepted the truth.

    LURE
    I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

    Even Luke has accepted the truth of what Ben told him. Vader was once Anakin Skywalker. He is not anymore. The only difference Luke has with Ben is that he does not believe Anakin Skywalker is truly dead, but locked away somewhere deep inside Vader, just as Han Solo was locked away in the carbonite. Luke wants Vader to return to being Anakin Skywalker.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
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  7. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Don't tell me what I think.
    You said that Anakin did not age the same decades as Obi-Wan, That sounded like you meant the body, as in Anakin's body. You have argued before that the Dark Side keeps your spirit from aging and now it sounded like you added the body to that list as well.

    You have not presented a reason that makes any sense in-universe and the new ghost causes contradictions.
    That Anakin stops developing mentally is not IN any of the films. And does not fit as Vader does change and evolve.
    Nor do the films give any explanation as to why Anakin's ghost is suddenly younger than he was when he died, in direct contradiction to the other two ghosts.

    And Lucas did originally want Luke's father to come back as an old man, after the turn.
    So Lucas looked at the OT as it was and thought that Luke's father should be an old man when he came back in the flesh. Not a young man, an old man.

    First appeal to authority fallacy and second I am not mistaken as the films prove me correct.
    Vader changes over the course of the OT films and he is different from how Anakin is in RotS.
    Vader kills Ozzel and Needa but not Piett. In ESB he wanted to get rid of the Emperor and rule with Luke, that desire is seemingly gone.
    Anakin in RotS could be paranoid and could rant at the drop of a hat. Vader does not.
    Anakin could do stuff just for the thrill of it, Vader does what he needs to accomplish his goals.

    Also, you keep talking about the machine, if Anakin had not been sliced up and never got put in the suit, would all of your arguments not apply any more?
    Did Dooku stop developing mentally once he turned? He never got put in a suit but he did turn to the dark side. Did Maul not develop mentally? Did Palpatine not develop mentally?

    Which is it, does the dark side stop your mental development or is it the suit?
    If Anakin stayed good but got burned and put in a similar suit, would he also stagnate mentally?

    Does Anakin, once he turns back, actually remember what he did as Vader? Or was it just nothingness once he cut off Mace's hand and then he comes back just as Palpatine is killing Luke and everything between that is just a blank?

    Droids in SW can grow and develop. C3PO in ANH said he was no good at telling stories but in RotJ he does it quite well. R2 was quite skilled in manipulating people.
    Did C3PO consider R2 his friend? He could be rude to him but also showed concern.

    I and others have already told you that the parallell to Han being frozen is weak as Han changed a lot before being frozen and when thawed out, he kept going along those lines. Vader however changes a lot after turning back and he also changes during his time in the Dark Side.
    Han and Vader also have considerable differences in where they started and how their arcs developed.

    Anakin is still there and always was there. Luke sensed it in ESB and when Luke refused to turn, it caused a change in Vader. He does not kill Piett afterwards and is silent as the MF escapes. Then in RotJ the conflict has grown inside him, Luke comments on it and even Palpatine senses something odd.

    Also there are more lines from Endor that I think are relevant.
    Luke addresses Vader as "Father", he pleads with him to leave , that he feels the conflict, that he can not do this but Vader is resigned to his fate. He thinks he has no choice. He knows he is a slave. In ESB he showed no sign that handing Luke over to the Emperor would bother him but here it does.

    Vader is Anakin same as Dooku is Tyrannus and Ben Solo is Kylo Ren. Yes there is the venom of the dark Side twisting them but they are still there, acting differently and doing bad things but they are responsible for their actions.

    If Vader/Anakin learned nothing during the years between RotS and RotJ, that he never had any thoughts of regret, that he never saw how the Dark Side was just a prison, that what he thought he wanted was empty once when he got it. Then to me it weakens the story quite a lot and makes the character far less interesting. Vader is just a static, unchanging bad guy that just vanishes at the drop of a hat and now we have an Anakin that has not changed at all from when we last saw him, about to cut of Mace's hand, not being able to let go, being very selfish.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    A lot of people see the dark side as space heroin or like being hit with Loki's scepter from THE AVENGERS. I don't think the movies support that notion, but it is what it is.
     
  9. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2020
    Btw I think he isn't that far off from Shaw now (surprisingly).

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Perhaps Lucas or Disney should have waited another 15-20 years before replacing Shaw's force ghost.
    Let's see if Hayden can pull off playing (unmasked?) Vader in the new Kenobi series.
     
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  10. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Come on. Nope. Don't buy it. There's no way you thought I was completely changing my argument that I've been engaging with you about for years, and was suddenly claiming that Anakin didn't physically age, despite the fact that we literally see him unmasked. Not unless you thought I was stupid.

    Please just engage with the things I'm actually saying. I extend you the same courtesy and respect.



    Real character growth there. He doesn't always throw temper tantrums after strangling people to death for crossing him. Sometimes he does it calmly, like a serial killer. Yeah, he's really become a better man. Got his anger under control. Guess those weekly therapy sessions really paid off. I can't believe George Lucas and Joseph Campbell didn't consider this. You really do understand Darth Vader better than them.

    Or maybe--and I know this might sound a little crazy--the fact that Vader becomes less outwardly expressive as he's brutally murdering people is evidence of the fact that he's stagnating as a human being, and even his evil acts have ceased to have much genuine emotion motivating them, instead become purely mechanical acts in service to the imperial machine. You know, just like you said--he's growing spiritually.

    Oh, you've already told me, have you? Well I guess you failed to miss that Han's entire arc in TESB is about how him grappling with his newfound responsibilities vs. his personal obligations and being unable to resolve them--hence the symbolic device of being frozen in suspended animation. After he's unthawed, he is reborn and no longer feels conflicted. He is at home in the Rebel Alliance and with his friends, willing to sacrifice his life for the cause with no reservations.

    If you think Han's arc in the OT is weak, that's fine. But if you're saying it's not there at all, you're wrong.

    Yes, Luke is trying to speak to Anakin, who he believes is still somewhere inside Vader. He still conceptualizes the personas as separate, as shown in the dialogue I already posted from this exchange:

    LUKE
    I know, father.

    VADER
    So, you have accepted the truth.

    LUKE
    I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.


    Luke refers to Vader as "father." Vader responds that that must mean Luke has accepted the truth that he is his father. Luke then clarifies and says, well, no, I've accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker, who is my father. There is literally no other reason for this exchange to exist other than what I've stated. It's not hard to understand.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
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  11. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2020
    If you really want to be that specific, then you could also state that Anakin started "stagnating as a human being" as a 9-year-old child when he was separated from his mother. So Jake Lloyd should be his force ghost, I guess?

    One thing is certain: 19-year-old Anakin in AOTC was already a "human wreck" and VERY close to his Vader personality (not to mention his 22-year-old self in ROTS).

    IMHO he never really understood what it meant to be a Jedi when he was a young man.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except you don't give me that courtesy or respect. You either ignore what I write or try to twist what I said.
    Plus your tone is often rather condescending.

    Ex.
    I said;
    You twisted this into;
    I said that the parallell to Han being frozen is weak, not that Han's arc is weak or does not exist.

    Really, this to you is treating me with respect and courtesy?
    A big heaping bowl of condescension.

    Also, the ex you gave is not what I would call a rant, that was just giving orders in a forceful tone.
    A rant is for ex after the Sand People massacre and Anakin rants about Obi-Wan holding him back.
    Or when being denied the rank of master in RotS or when he accuses Padme of bringing Obi-Wan there to kill him.

    Deny it all you want but Vader in the OT is different from how Anakin is in RotS, both before and after his turn. And Vader also changes over the course of the OT films and no, not just when he turns back.

    I did say that Vader is COLDER than Anakin, did you not see that?

    Your argument is that Vader is totally static, does not change in any way what so ever.
    That Anakin was "frozen" right when he turned and how he was then is exactly how he has been for over 20 years. Nothing has happened to him, no growth, no change.
    All this is provably wrong as Vader is different from RotS Anakin and Vader even changes over the course of the OT films. In ESB he warns Piett to not fail him again and yet when the MF gets away, a ship that Piett was told to sabotage, Vader does NOT kill him, and Piett looked like he was expecting it.

    From the ESB script;
    Note the underlined word, Vader is contemplating what just happed, he has things to think about.

    In RotJ Vader never chokes anyone. It did happen in earlier scripts and some of it was filmed but cut.
    Why? To show that Vader has changed. He is conflicted, he is different from how he was in ESB.

    Yes I and others explained some of the problems we have with this analogy earlier in this thread.
    "Failed to miss"? So I hit?
    In ANH Han was self-serving and cared mostly about money. He changed over the course of that film, first he dismissed Luke as a "wet behind the ears farm-boy" but later offered to let Luke come with him, that Luke was pretty good in a fight. And later he came back and saved Luke and the rebellion.
    He became much less selfish.
    In ESB he is worried about the prize on his head and wants to deal with it.
    Not entirely selfish mind you, if some bounty hunter find him they will also find the rebels and could then inform the empire. So Han is an asset but also an added security risk. Plus, Han can leave, pay back Jabba and then come back. Nothing is stopping him.
    In RotJ, the prize on Han's head is gone by virtue of Jabba being dead. So his situation has changed but that was not his doing.
    I would say that Han's arc in ESB is more about his feelings for Leia and Leia has a similar arc. Leia has to admit that she does love Han and Han has to learn to express his love better. That arc is completed in ESB, Leia says she loves him and Han calmly responds "I know."

    I would say that Han was willing to risk his life for others even as far back as ANH. He came to save Luke, despite him calling an attack on the DS suicide. He had been paid, he got what he wanted and yet he came back.

    So Han grows and changes over the course of all three OT films, him being frozen was a minor part in that. And did not alter his trajectory as a character all that much. And even after that, Han did feel a twinge of jealousy when Leia had talked to Luke.

    But after that bit, Luke still keeps calling Vader "father".
    And this exchange is also there to show the conflict in Vader.
    That is why Vader says such things as "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." and "It is too late for me, son."
    Showing regret, that Vader realizes he is trapped, that he has no choice anymore, or so he thinks.
    That he has considered his past actions and what they have led to. And when Luke leaves with saying "Then my father is truly dead." Vader looks downbeat and that those words stung.

    RotJ makes a clear attempt to show that Vader isn't this 100% evil character, Luke several times says that there is still good in him, that there is a conflict. And Vader acts differently, less confident, less commanding, more unsure and regretful. All this so that his turn back is NOT a sudden flip of a switch.
    Lucas did the same with Anakin in the PT, the turn to evil was gradual, Anakin did more and more dark things until he finally turned. Again not a flip of a switch.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    That's not when he started stagnating as a human being, though.

    Incorrect.

    The implication of what you're saying, whether you realize it or not, is that Han's arc is either weak or nonexistent. Otherwise, the parallels to Darth Vader's arc should be clear and obvious to you. They're both selfish people who become conflicted before finally learning to be completely selfless. This is high school English class stuff.

    Saying you don't understand Darth Vader better than George Lucas or Joseph Campbell is being condescending? Seems like I have a pretty high bar to clear to not offend you.

    Yes, that's after his encounter with Luke. Because the point is that Luke begins to awaken the conflict within him. This is the entire story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Here you claim that I don't know what I am talking about and arguing something I am not.
    Han has an arc, I have said that more than once. It is Different from Vader's. That does not mean it is weak or does not exist. It is simply different. Luke has an arc too but his is also different from Han's.
    You think they are very similar, I and others disagree and we have given examples from the films to support our arguments.

    Han starts out in a different place than Vader, changes in ways different from Vader and his changes are more spread out over the three films.
    Those are just a few reasons why the parallell between Han and Vader is weak. Other reasons have been presented to you in this thread. Just go back a few pages and you can read them.
    Summary, Han does have an arc, a very good one at that, his is just too different from Vaders to make any parallel very meaningful.

    Your entire passage was filled to the brim with belittling and condescension.
    You could simply say you disagree and give your reasons. You choose to be dismissive instead.

    Wrong, the conflict existed BEFORE that scene, that is made very clear in the film.
    Luke says there is good in Vader BEFORE that scene. Palpatine probes Vader's feelings BEFORE that scene.
    The conflict begins at the end of ESB. We both see it when Vader does not kill Piett and Luke says that he sensed good in Vader then.

    You can answer this if you feel like, I won't respond because your behavior here and in other threads have made it clear that it is no longer fun or meaningful to engage with you.

    Bye!
     
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  15. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I'll just quote myself:

    They're both selfish people who become conflicted before finally learning to be completely selfless.

    Not sure I follow.

    The fact that there is good in Vader the whole time (this is not in dispute) is not the same thing as there being conflict the whole time. The good within him has been totally suppressed, and the first evidence of it rising to the surface and causing conflict is when he fails to murder Piett as he did his other underlings. Lucas explains this on the commentary.

    You'll be back. Bye for now.
    The Phantom Calamari
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
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  16. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    The way Lucas chose to write him... yep. Couldn't agree more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2021
  17. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 18, 2020
    Didn't 45-year-olds in 1983 look a little bit older than they do now?
    Shaw certainly couldn't pass as 45 even back then, but nowadays a lot of 45-year-olds still look like people in their twenties.

    I've always imagined Vader to be a guy in his 50s, to be honest.
    Old enough to look like Shaw but still young enough to be "a young Jedi" when he became evil (and fathered Luke + Leia).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  18. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    A lot of movies will cast elderly actors in parental rolls so that the 20 something actors (playing teenagers) will look younger in comparison.
     
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  19. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015
    LOL - "Noooooooo" is WAY, WAY worse. I still can't believe he put that in.
     
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  20. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2015
    I just came back after taking a 1-2 year hiatus from the boards. It's nice to see the same people are still having the exact same arguments.

    It's like poetry, mirroring, rhyming or something :)

    (Just poking fun - you guys are great for a bunch of weirdo SW nerds :))
     
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  21. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I don't think Shaw was meant to pass as a 45 year old when ROTJ was made. I believe the time line was a bit different then, with Anakin being quite a bit older when he fathered Luke and Leia, such that he was in his late fifties by the time of his death. Obi-Wan was somewhat older than Anakin, but they were closer in age then they ultimatley were in the prequels.
     
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  22. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    I would say this is another reason why Shaw didn't need replaced. He looked like Luke's father, whereas Hayden looks like Luke's younger, punk rock brother, in the footage used.

    The original chronology before the prequels had Kenobi 60 in ANH and Anakin 55, which means Anakin was 59 when he became a force ghost and Kenobi was 60 when he did.

    This chronology also had the Clone Wars taking place 35 years before ANH with the fall of the republic taking place between 29 and 18 years before ANH, with Palpatine becoming Emperor, Anakin becoming Vader, and the twins born 18 years before ANH
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  23. Nate787

    Nate787 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2016

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. Tom Skywalker

    Tom Skywalker Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 18, 2020
    I think you are right. Sebastian Shaw looks more like he could be the father of Leia rather than Luke (except for the blue eyes).

    Regarding Hayden and also Jake Lloyd, it's actually the opposite.
    For TPM, they actively searched for blond boys who looked a lot like Mark Hamill.

    Natalie Portman had to be a brunette because - well.... - Carrie Fisher was a brunette, too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  25. Django Fett

    Django Fett Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Anyone new to the films or born since the revamped SE were released shouldn't see a problem, it's not like they'll see the original version unless they buy an old video version other than Youtube or photos. Most BTS photos feature SS in the Vader costume, preparing to film Anakin's death scene, probably due to SAG and SS filming the Force ghosts scene on separate days.

    It's to us kids of the 70's and 80's that the change really affected and seemed the most pointless to.