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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit What makes a Character that Character; Reboots, Reimagines and Recanonization

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AusStig, Apr 18, 2021.

  1. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Agreed. It also doesn't hurt that we got multiple takes on the character already.

    To be fair, I think @Darth Invictus was responding to why it would be significant to change Plagueis' species, not responding to my comment.

    The bolded is a thread unto itself - I'll refrain from going there. I agree with your analysis of Revan's story, but I think it's okay if a new character plays the Bastila role.

    ETA:
    Maybe it's just because Revan is not a CHARACTER in a meaningful sense in KOTOR, that I'm more accepting - but I think I could live with a Revan that stays Sith. But maybe if they go that route they shouldn't hang the story so tightly to the character, and leave Revan more on the periphery.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I like what @SyndicThrass suggested of just making Revan a legend within Star Wars

     
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  3. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    I think if Plagueis were to remain a Muun, and his personality remained broadly the same, a lot of the criticism wouldn't arise. Luceno's books are so lore-heavy, it's impossible to bring the Legends ones over wholesale without clashes.

    Hopefully canon-Plagueis actually has "ones he cared about", and his tragedy is more - well, tragic.

    Revan could present an opportunity to show redemption without death. Atonement. I loved seeing that in Alphabet Squadron and would really like to see a former Sith go through that.
     
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  4. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Yes for Revans story Bastila doesn't need to be a battlemeditation expert, fun fact she was going to be Nomi Sunriders daughter, she just needs to be a guide. So in that respect Revan doesn't need her, just someone to fulfil that role.

    Have you read Tales of the Jedi Redemption?
     
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  5. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    I knew this would come up.

    I have, and would have liked it a lot more were it not for the abomination of a character that is Hoggon. He's an incredibly annoying and mean-spirited caricature who you could almost ignore were it not for the ending.

    A Redemption version 2 would be awesome.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  6. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I like Female Revan Carth romance myself.
     
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  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Problem is, "Sith Lord who seeks immortality" can mean any number of different characters. Not to mention immortality is the raison d'etre of the Sith as a whole anyway.
     
  8. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 27, 2020
    Well, the Legion of Darth Revan being a thing doesn't exclude a possible redemption for the actual Revan in a story, after all it's just nomenclature decided by a bunch of Sith Fanatics.
     
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  9. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    If canon Revan were to receive a "real name", then there could be a separation between his two natures à la Anakin/Vader ("Anakin Skywalker is dead")
     
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  10. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    For Plagueis, i agree with @Jid123Sheeve in that making him completely different than in Legends is perfectly reasonable, since in the movies we're just given a name and a context that may or may not have been 100% accurate (remember that Sidious is a pathological liar) in fact that's where all the Snoke theories of him being Plagueis came from lol, in fact there's still people saying that he was a clone of Plagueis.

    But they could also base the potrayal of Plagueis on the fact that Lucas was the one that established his species as a Muun, thus making him a Muun in Canon as well.

    Regardless, i think the most important thing to get right with Plagueis is that he has an interesting dynamic with Sidious, something we did have in the novel.
     
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  11. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    They can do the same with Darth Bane as well, his story doesn't have to be the same as it was in Legends outside of "Created the Rule of Two" aspect....Heck his armor is already different.
     
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  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    On a related note, I'm reminded of the plans to canonize the Vong(or bring them into TCW anyway), but make them substantially different-still connected to the force, dark side using, from elsewhere.

    As opposed to the very specific characteristics the Vong have in the NJO.

    What makes a species, government, or faction that species or faction?

    Like, recanonizing Hapes but making it a patriarchal society-would be the opposite of what Hapes is established to be.

    I would argue that governments, planets, factions, organizations, and species-to be recanonized need to have essential elements carried over else they just share the same name but ought not.

    The Vong to use my first example have very specific characteristics that are important to the themes of the story they are in. Change that, and its not the Yuuzhan Vong just another species that shares the same name.

    Hapes is rich, isolationist(for most of its history anyway), and importantly matriarchal.

    Zonama Sekot is alive, and Varl is a ruined waste. Planets have essential characteristics that make them "that" planet as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  13. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    For me there is much less play in bringing a species, planet, culture, etc. into Canon than a character. I think they should be pretty much "as is" or not at all. Except drop the "every member of this species (or every person from this planet of origin) acts very similar to the first character of this species (or from this planet) that we encounter" trope (especially egregious when they did it to the Fosh/most notable when they did it to Correllians). If they want to borrow existing designs but use them for different species in Canon, I say change it up a little bit and call it something else - I don't mind the "borrow from".
     
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  14. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I mean there is a reason why a lot of planets are back in canon even if we never see them...Like Ziost for instance or Tython.
     
  15. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? A lot of planets are back because they wanted to import as much pre-existing world-building whole cloth to help set their stories in. Essentially filling the role of WEG in the early 90s EU. Why not use a lot of existing species and planets when they can be brought in without meaningfully limiting storytelling?
     
  16. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    yes he is. But I am not bothered by him.

    That is what I wanted from Jacen after Legacy of the Force, but alas.

    @Riv_Shiel that is planet of the hats and it is used all too often in sci-fi/fantasy.

    I also don't see an issue of bring in a lot of the old world building stuff, since it was soo deep you could do a lot with it, or only minor changes (like the Zygerians) .


    Speaking of this, Ryloth. I was disapointed when in TCW it was just treated like a normal planet, while in legends it was a tidally locked planet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  17. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 12, 2014
    I was thinking more about Planet of Copyhats - which bothers me much more than the vanilla version.
     
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  18. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    Many planets seem to have a bit more flexibility regarding their history than their physical appearance. Onderon is still Onderon if it has jungles, flying beasts, and the walled city of Iziz. But does it still need to have a history of Sith rulers? (I hope that aspect will stay). Others like Tython or Mandalore seem to be the opposite case, their history is crucial, while different stories might visually depict them very differently.

    Regarding characters, I'm curious if anyone else would be curious to see Kreia in canon. People sing her praises quite a lot, but I expect if she were to show up in a story post-TRoS, for example, she'd be quite controversial among a more general audience.

    Also, Kir Kanos would be a fun character to throw into a live-action series, why not? He'd probably slot in no problem.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  19. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I don't like either honestly. At least not when taken to the Zahn extent.

    I hope so too.

    Interestingly Mandalore and the changes to it got Traviss to quit Star Wars.


    If I never see Kreia agin it will be too soon. Crazy old fool hates people who use their skills fully. (if you have a hand cut off you can't hold things in two hands, do you feel stronger now Kreia?)

    What story would you tell with him?
     
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  20. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 27, 2020
    At that point they wouldn't be the Yuuzhan Vong anymore, just some Dark Jedi with Biotech, i won't be happy if that becomes a thing, for that they can create a new species that uses both biotech and the Dark Side, having it's own mythos based around that, they could even grab some of Lord Cronal's ideas of "The Dark" in Legends and give it to a larger antagonist like a species from the Unknown Regions, you know, play around with the concepts and make something original, not just grab the Yuuzhan Vong in name only and change everything else about them, that would be a disservice to the species as it was built in the old EU.

    I'm really glad they didin't appear in TCW.

    If they're to appear in the current Canon, they have to be the same as they were in the EU, maybe not the same characters or leadership, but the same culture and characteristics.

    Still, i would prefer if they made their own concepts to play around with and also have the Canon be it's own thing from Legends.

    I don't think Kreia would work post-TROS, where would she even come from? a surviving Order 66 Jedi? If that were the case she would have to have been a Sith as well post-Episode III which is kinda muddy, if she comes from a post-Palpatine era and wasn't a part of the original Jedi, then her character wouldn't have the same weight because the point of Kreia was a character that was shaped by the wars and destruction she saw caused by both sides of the Jedi/Sith conflict, since she was part of both, without some big war and Jedi Schism like in the Mandalorian Wars, her character would feel kind of like it came out of nowhere, suddenly there's this old lady acting like the universe is doomed and there's several layers of gray to the Jedi and Sith when we just got out of the most Black and White conflict in history (vs Palpatine).

    I just feel the message sent by that character isn't fit for post-TROS, if anything if there is going to be a "grey path" message, it has to be something rather positive, something like Rey's Jedi Order being different from the Old and learning from prior mistakes, being overall better than the Old Order which fell into dogmatism and fear, basically a Force-based message for the New Jedi era shouldn't be as dry and pessmistic as what Kreia offers, her ideals are perfect for the time of the KOTOR era given the endless conflicts between Jedi and Sith, and how corrupt the Jedi and Republic were growing in that time, which led to what we see in the Prequels, along with some of the moral grayness of the Sith we see by learning their ideology and what they stand for as a culture (and not being caricature bad guys), but would feel out of place in post-TROS where the paradigm is very different.

    Wait, did they do it to the Fosh?? I thought Vergere was unique among their people in her attitude and approach to life, she didin't think the way she did because her species was all like that (though some of her physical mannerisms do look a bit like "weird alien quirks" to me) the most that is attributed to her species regarding her character is the ability to produce tears that can heal (a female only ability) which she was able to modify to have her tears serve whatever function she wanted due to her Force Sensitivity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  21. VexedAtVohai

    VexedAtVohai Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2020
    He's the sort of character who could appear in a single episode of The Mandalorian or Rangers of the New Republic as someone who teams up with our heroes to eliminate Imperials he deems 'disloyal', having conversations throughout that elaborates on his past.

    Perhaps he was not one of the chosen few to receive Palpatine's contingency orders, and mistakenly believed Operation Cinder to be the work of traitors. Eventually finding out that the Emperor ordered it himself could be a pivotal moment for him.

    I hadn't thought about it that much, but he seems like he'd fit perfectly with Jon Favreau's "leftover action figures" approach to Season 1 of Mando - an anti-hero who could serve as a dark reflection of Din Djarin.

    I think Kreia would absolutely have to be more clearly presented as wrong than she was (or wasn't) in KotOR II. Her pessimism and desire to end the destructive conflict between the light and dark sides would be an interesting motive for a villain after the Skywalker saga. I think it would be an opportunity to define what Balance in the Force means, with Kreia denying that such a thing is achievable or worth pursuing - before ultimately being disproven.

    That said, I honestly do think Kreia herself is better left in KotOR II.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
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  22. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 27, 2020
    Maybe that way it would work better for post-TROS thematically, but i think that would take away a lot of her message, and the fact that it was up to us to determine if she was right or wrong, as the story doesn't make a particular judgement (i think she was wrong, but i'm talking about how the story presented the issues) one could make a case for either side and it was mostly because it was the player character, The Exile, who validated or proved wrong her ideals by their actions, i think that is why her character worked so well for many people, because she wasn't treated as outright wrong by the story itself, but it left it open to interpretation, if you just treat it as she was wrong all the time with absolute certainity, then she's no different than any other villain.

    But then again, her ideology itself would have flimsy bases at best if her story was set post-TROS like i said before, so she would be obviously wrong from the beginning.

    I think the moral ambiguity is what makes her story work, if you put clear lines between right and wrong, then it loses it's effect.

    Yeah, i completely agree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  23. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Joke is this 'in name only' adapting of chracter already happened before the Disney buyout. Like with Darth Caedus aka. "Jacen in name only" and arguably the Revan we saw in TOR.
     
  24. Irredeemable Fanboy

    Irredeemable Fanboy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2020
    RINO?
     
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I have to ask.