Lit What makes a Character that Character; Reboots, Reimagines and Recanonization

At most you can argue that his design isn't creative. Mockery tends to be reserved for truly ridiculous aliens. Do you think that people mocked the Pantorans in 2005?

Also just because something is old doesn't shield it from mockery. Superman looking like Clark Kent without glasses has been a trope since the 40's yet people still mock it.

Wait, so the design of Thrawn (1991) is apparently only accepted because he's an older character, but Vulcan's and Wookiees (60's and 70's) don't get the same criticism from you?

Anyway as much as it pains me to admit it, Thrawn is only 1 year year older than me. I was probably in my teens or early 20's when I first heard about him, and he was still popular then. 30 years is still a long time, but for a series that's been around since the 70's it's relatively recent. (Even more recent if you consider Rebels and recent novels to have helped his popularity). So the "he only gets a pass because he's an older character" argument doesn't hold water for me. Yeah pop culture tastes have certainly changed between the 90's and today. But you're making it sound like Thrawn is an artifact from the era where cigarettes where advertised on television and that a blue humanoid alien character would *never* be accepted in these modern times!

Look, I love reptillian aliens, but how the hell can you say "Chiss are just blue humans" and at the same time praise what are just some grey/black lizards as being "interesting"?

 

@AusStig

I mean if we consider Rebels (And soon Mandalorian) to be many peoples first introduction to Thrawn.....I don't think that is gonna be a very true statement then.

 

You can disagree with my opinion. You can say, “well I don’t agree because of X,Y,Z” and we can have a discussion on why some things appeal or don’t appeal to you or me as individuals.

What you’re doing is basically saying “No No No, you’re wrong, this opinion you hold is bad and you and everyone who shares your opinion should change how you feel because I’m right.”

I shouldn’t have to tell you this...but you’re not right. You hold an opinion. Now, that opinion can be shared by many people or very few people, but at the end of the day all it is is an opinion. What you’re doing isn’t so much a discussion as it is you more or less insulting me and my opinion as factually wrong. It’s no way to conduct yourself.

 

I don't get why characters like Xizor are "problematic" but maybe i'm just too much of an uneducated Buenos Aires resident that doesn't understand much of USA identity politic fights lol.

I don't agree with the notion that people like Thrawn's design because he's old, as he was instantly popular when he came out, but i think that if he was just a design without a memorable character, people wouldn't like him so much, though.

The Noghri also have the problem that comic book iterations of them varied a lot back then, look at the Comic version of the Thrawn Trilogy for an example, so they aren't as established as Thrawn was in an aesthetic sense.

 

Agin that was not my intention. If you like his design, well and good, but it is a bland design to me, since it is just white with a blue face. You can like it but still find it bland, people like white cars.

So do you think he design made him popular or his popularity made his design. Say if we switch the looks for him and Noghri, do you think that would affect things?

 

@AusStig

I Think it's both the design and the character and that without one or the other then the character would not be as iconic as he is today

You need both to make Thrawn iconic

 

So do you think that is why Kyle isn't around?

 

I think Yoda is a good example of this principle. Pretend that Yoda was still a wise Jedi Master, but was just an ordinary human. (Or some sort of gnome like in the original concept art). He'd still have mostly the same character traits. But he wouldn't be as memorable. (Also it's important to the story that he dosn't match Luke's expectations. "Judge me by my size, do you?").

Likewise Thrawn could still be a popular villain if he was a human. But the unique look helps. (And just like with Yoda, ties in with his character. Not only that he's so talented the xenophobic Empire will tolerate him, but it emphasizes he's different from the typical officer).

 

In some sense yes, he's just another Jedi dude at the end of the day and elements of his character have been taken up already by characters like Finn and Cassian already.

I like this analogy

 

I think what made him popular to begin with is his personality and the role he had in the books, combined with the design being simple but effective, basically what i'm saying is that if Thrawn was just a random guy with that same design, it wouldn't be nearly as popular, it's his character that made the Chiss design especially appealing due to the association with him, if the Chiss were to originate from someone else, they wouldn't be nearly as popular.

If he had a design like the Noghri or something way different than the Thrawn we know, i'm not sure if he would have been looked the same way, given the design complemented his personality really well, however, if he didin't have the personality he had, or was the same character, the design by itself wouldn't be memorable.

He was benefited from the design choice as a character, but it was the character who made the design popular as a whole, those are not mutually exclusive.

 

I mean some characters are just lucky to have all the right ingredients molded together to become iconic

Like Darth Vader and Yoda

 

@Jid123Sheeve Yeah, true, the Yoda analogy is pretty good, imagine if Yoda's soecies' design was known through Yaddle in Episode I and Yoda was a human in ESB.

It wouldn't be the same, but the design complemented the character really well in Episode V, thus why it became iconic.

Making a character is like cooking, sometimes it works, other times you make a mess, and in some rare occasions, you create something unique.

 

I was just thinking about Yoda v Mace.

Both are well known, but people know Yoda as Yoda, while not always so with Mace.

Also yes, though i did say swaping his look with the Noghri to keep him non-human it is an important (and under used in TT, could have explained why he only had 6 ISDs but anyway off topic).

So what elements of the desgin are key, @Irredeemable Fanboy mentioned Malaks Jaw and tats, what are some other characters with key looks, how about the Vong?

 

Vong are a bit tricky to judge.

On the one hand I think the Vong are remembered less for anything than either as "Oh yeah i heard of them...weren't they part of the big book series that once killed Chewie"

Honestly I'm not sure if they are super iconic outside of infamy (Espeically in more cynical EU circles) for that

In terms of design...IDK...I think they just look like Orcs.

Basically...I think there is one of many reasons why the Vong probably won't be coming back anytime soon.

@Irredeemable Fanboy @JediBatman

I think a good example of just a human Imperial would be Pellaeon then. I mean Pellaeon appeared in more books had a entire arc in his post Endor history...and yet Thrawn is still remembered even over Pellaeon.

Like yes I think Pellaeon associate him with Thrawn than being his own character or honestly don't remember him at all if they don't know the ins and outs of Thrawn.

 

I think they are well known and sometimes that is enough. I mean who would have predicted Dark Empire getting a movie adaptation.

How do you describe Orcs?

To me Vong are more like gray, bold pointy eared humans.

 

@AusStig

As you say gray pointed eared humans with ugly teeth

Fair enough but then you have to ask what ideas are just low hanging fruit that even if NO ONE knew that Dark Empire existed someone would still say "How about lets bring the Emperor back"

Like I HIGHlY DOUBT anyone knew about Jacen Solo when writing Episode 7 BUT the idea of a Solo/Skywalker Kid turning evil is a low hanging fruit idea that someone would have brought it up regardless if they knew any of that EU stuff (Which they probably didn't)

 

The elements i consider key to Thrawn's design are his refined posture and appereance and his unique combination of colors (glowing red eyes, blue skin, etc.) this ties to the character's personality really well (his refined appereance communicating his intelligence and sophistication, his glowing eyes potraying how hard to read, distant, and unpredictable he can be, his alien traits as his blue skin also contrasting to his Human companions).

Other characters i think have very defined visual characteristics that shouldn't be changed for a reboot are:

Durge, his armor and overpowering appereance.
Mara Jade, her "golden red" hair and agile-looking appereance.
The Yuuzhan Vong have to look grotesque, but still humanoid, signifying more of a cultural difference than anything else.
Darth Malgus has to be a Vader-like Juggernaut, or he loses part of his appeal.
Darth Maul (i know he's not EU but still, imagine a Darth Maul that doesn't look like the one we know).
Darth Nihilus, his "ghost-like" appereance sells his "wound in the Force" character really well, also the fact that he doesn't really talk.

It is mostly case-by-case, some characters aren't so defined by their visual characteristics more by what they did (like Darth Bane) or their personality (Kyp Durron, despite the writers not deciding what color his eyes are, and artist never agreeing about how to draw him, his personality and role is what defines him) or their background (Tahiri, Darth Krayt).

 

@Irredeemable Fanboy

You mentioned eyes and I thought of Ysanne Isard with her red admiral uniform and the blue and red eyes.

So space Orc

 

Ok, to me an Orc has to be green. Otherwise he ain't Orcy enough and he gets krumped. Or Short, a grey orc is short.

Well are these stories iconic in and of themselves?

@Irredeemable Fanboy Funny you mention Krayt I think he has a really good design and so do most of the one Sith, but I would it matter if you were adapting them?

Oh I would also be remiss if I didn't bring up Darth Talon who's design is so "Iconic" she almost made into a movie and a game, though not her character.

 

TROS contradicted Poe's backstory from Before the Awakening. So yeah, if they couldn't read a direct tie in book from only a few years prior, I find it really hard to believe anyone involved in the ST had read Dark Empire or Legacy of the Force. Sometimes multiple people just have similar ideas (The MaClunky thread mentioned a fan fiction that named "the new republic" before ROTJ came out.)

 

I mean I think Chris Terrio said he read Dark Empire but I think JJ Abrams probably was overriding things when it came to Poe's backstory...But whatever. A lot of the Dark Empire parallels probably came from Story Group.

(Although Ian Mcdirmid said that some Palpatine lines were cut saying Palpatine was a clone)

And to add to your point....there was a fan novel called REVENGE OF THE SITH in 1983 I believe....so even title names had been used.

Heck Episode 7 was originally gonna be called "Shadows of the Empire"

@AusStig
Don't care for Lord of the Rings movies then?

 

Oh I love lotRs movies, the orcs there are short. The tall ones are Urks.

But I was meaning Warhammer Orcs like this lad

 

Ah....Cuz the Vong remind me of Urks from LOTR stuff.

 

Oh, you are right Heart of Ice has a very unique look as well, she was a great antagonist with a lot of pressence.

In fact i like her more than i like Thrawn.

Spoilers for Legacy ahead in case someone here hasn't read it:

In fact Krayt is one of those characters whose look ties to his background a lot, from his first design in Republic, with his Tusken Mask put on showing his both Jedi and Tusken background plus using his Father's Lightsaber, to where he ditches the mask to be seen primarly as a Jedi, but retains the face tattoos being a memory of his Tusken past, then when he becomes a Sith his armor and Lightsabers complement his Vongformed state (in a way it looked like Krayt dressed like that to hide his sickness too) and to pay homage to the fact that he was re-made as a person due to the Embrace of Pain, where he got his vision, so his armor looking Vong-like is also a reference to that part of his past, plus, he's once again using a mask, showing his change of "self" and attempt to hide his identity and secrets from others.

Concluding with his final design, Krayt Reborn, where all of these design choices are mixed into one, you got both his new Sith Lightsaber with Vong-like design and his father's Jedi Lightsaber, his face is uncovered showing the Tusken Tattoos, and his armor has still some of the design of his Vong Armor despite being different, he no longer has to hide any sickness or weakness under a mask or a bulky armor, in many ways Krayt Reborn is a perfect mix of his background being shown in a character design, and also communicating how he is completely acknowledging and accepting his past, no longer hiding it, but still being completely secure about his current ideals and worldview (something we see when Wyyrlock tries to unbalance him with Force Visions and when Krayt himself shares his past life via Telepathy with all the Sith).

He's a really well designed character in all of his stages.

 

@Irredeemable Fanboy

It is interesting that Thrawn and Isard (I think) came to the EU around the same time yet Thrawn (Though retroactively) stuck around longer than Isard. Like yeah Isard's dad got a mention in Plagueis and stuff like that but Isard herself kinda disappeared after a while.

Plus also funny that (Well Isard dad got mentioned in Tarkin so HE's canon technically) but Isard herself hasn't made the transition over to NuCanon which it would be easy to.

Unless she appears in the Rogue Squadron movie ;p