CT What Sort of Villain is Lord Vader?

@Samuel Vimes Thanks for the definitions.

 

Looks like someone voted for true neutral. Hm...well...I can imagine him being more partial in terms of how he's willing to take orders from Sidious and Tarkin. He's quite calm compared to his past self as Anakin. But I wouldn't call him a true neutral. A true neutral would be...Goto the droid in the EU. Goto was the truest of true neutrals. He used both legal and illegal means to benefit the galaxy as a whole. He didn't care if the Jedi or Sith took over. He just improved the galactic economy for everyone. He was both an apathetic pragmatist who advanced himself and someone who preserved balance in the elements. Heh. Other examples of true neutrals would be Treebeard in Tolkien's legends, Varys in the early Game of Thrones seasons, etc.

So, I don't think Vader is a true neutral. If he was a neutral of any kind, it would be a chaotic neutral. But that would only be Vader stranded on his own on a planet. He would shift allegiances just to benefit himself in that scenario. As it is, I think that Vader possesses traits of both a lawful evil and a chaotic evil.

 

Indeed. That makes sense. He reminds me of some of the villains of my novel insofar as they tend to be between categorizations. Ultimately, your definition makes the most sense. LE/NE grey area with a bit of chaotic methodology here and there.

The good thing about Vader is he is a well-written masked character. The mask actually helps people interpret him as they will. He's like a gothic black knight. Sidious is pretty easy to understand. A few folks think that he's complex, but he is anything but.

 

Lawful Good

The Empire did nothing wrong.

 

Lawful Evil would be the popular choice though i get Chaotic Neutral vibes at times with him too.

He's still merciless with precision only for a total failure in tasks handled by the Empire that borders on being 'Just' but also cruel.

 

Neutral evil pre-suit, Recently turned Vader definitely believes in law and order, but his political beliefs are second to his personal aims, and he doesnt care what's legal in regard to saving Padme (or really, power for the sake of it). He doubles down on political aspects of his motivations for turning, which were a distant second to his desire to save Padme and become more powerful, once he realizes that he was bait-and-switched and uses the Jedi's supposed betrayal as justification.

Lawful evil post-suit- he believes in the use of the Empire to keep order, and he is fully convinced that the Rebels are in the wrong and that the Empire and Sith have the right ideas.

His extreme discipline would be considered lawful, under the framework of the Empire as psychotic as it is.

 

I believe there are quite a few antagonists we could classify as a combination of lawful and chaotic.

But either way one sees it, Vader was a scary man. We may analyze him a great deal, but he's definitely not the kind of person we would want to meet in real life.

 

I agree with others that say he doesn't fit into any category if you look at his character across all movies. He mostly fits into each category in each movie:

In ROTS he was arrogant and reckless. Selfishly doing what he thought was right at the expense of everything else. Probably more Chaotic evil as he even slaughters younglings for his own ambitions.

In ANH he was more of a henchman. An attack dog at Tarkin's disposal. Clearly he is following Tarkin's orders. So I'd say he's lawful evil in ANH.

In ESB he's in charge and an unstoppable force. He follows orders from Palpatine but he's ready to turn on Palpatine to achieve his own goals (his offer to Luke to overthrow the emperor). I'd say he's more neutral evil in ESB.

In ROTJ I'd say he's back to being lawful evil. Once again subservient to Palpatine.

Breaking down the traits and highlighting important ones:

ROTS - Chaotic Evil:

The chaotic evil code:
1. You shall lie whenever convenient.
2. You shall harm the innocent whenever convenient. - Younglings anyone?
3. You shall kill for pleasure. - Mustafar slaughter?
4. You shall not aid the weak.
5. You shall not honor any other before yourself. - Offers Padme to overthrow Palpatine
6. You shall break the law whenever convenient.
7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation whenever convenient. - Obi-Wan
8. You shall harm those who protect the weak or honor laws.
9. You shall pursue all forms of pleasure.
10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited freedom for yourself.

ANH and ROTJ - Lawful Evil (of course once he decides to take out Palpatine he changes):

The lawful evil code:
1. You shall not lie.
2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order.
3. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order. Killing rebel pilots, etc...
4. You shall not aid the weak.
5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades. Tarkin and Palpatine.
6. You shall follow the law.
7. You shall not betray others. Tarkin and Palpatine. I "must" obey my master.
8. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak.
9. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades.
10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society.

ESB - Neutral Evil:

The neutral evil code:
1. You shall lie to advance yourself.
2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself. - Han Solo
3. You shall kill to advance yourself. - Captain Needa, etc...
4. You shall not aid the weak.
5. You shall honor those who are stronger. - Palpatine - what is thy bidding my master?
6. You shall follow the law only to advance yourself.
7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation to advance yourself. - Cutting off Luke's hand then offering to overthrow Palpatine
8. You shall not aid those who protect the weak.
9. You shall not show mercy to enemies.
10. You shall seek unlimited power over others.

 

Vader is a version of physiology. The literal violence against his body through sociological deconstruction is physics being self-envelope

 

Has anyone had any nightmares about Darth Vader? I did as a kid after I watched TESB for the first time. I dreamt that he was standing in my old house in the garden room. I was freaked out.

 

Yeah, many many years ago, but I still remember it. I was lying flat on the floor and he was standing right next to me. I didn't know if he saw me or not and I didn't dare move in case he noticed.

 

Even as a former D&D player/fan, I never really got into all that alignment stuff. Somehow it took the fun out of pure role-playing. And AD&D made things even more complicated, IMO unnecessarily so. Well, I was just a kid back then, and haven't played AD&D in over 3 decades.
But as for the topic: simple! Vader is the kind of villain that enjoys dressing in black, wearing a cape as any self-respecting villain should, making dramatic entrances, has breathing problems and randomly kills his own crew members for making the slightest mistake while going on about how the Force is so much superior to any technology.

 

I'm not much of a D&D person (had to read those definitions-thanks @Samuel Vimes).

I went with Vader being Neutral Evil. Based on that definition it seems to describe Darth Vader better, based on what we have seen of his actions and motivations. Honestly I would say Neutral Evil most accurately defines the Sith mentality in general, so it makes sense for Vader.

 

I don't think he really fits any of these categories. He's complicated. I daresay perhaps even more complicated than MCU Loki. And that boy is pretty dang complicated.

 

Absolutely.

 

This has been a fun thread. I really like the discussion here!

 

I'm honestly surprised that I've never had any nightmares about Darth Vader. The only Sith Lord to show up in my dreams has been...Ludo Kressh. His picture was on the wall in a restaurant. It took me 28 years to have a dream about a Sith Lord. Lol.

 

Vader is an Imperialist Villian, determined to keep The Empire “motivated” and running at optimal efficiency.

 

He is unstable, though. Killing one’s own commanders could be detrimental to his cause. Thrawn did not agree with that sort of thing.

 

Ha, sorry that was me. I didn’t know what the options meant, and I actually misread True Neutral as being True Natural. So I thought, yeah Vader is a true natural when it comes to villainy.

Nice detailed rebuff though. I feel like I’ve learnt something.

 

Ah, I see. Well, he is a true natural in terms of villainy. You're not wrong about that. Natural talent with the Force and a lightsaber, as well.

 

At the time of the Obi-Wan Kenobi show, i think he's pure chaotic evil, considering his deeds and his obsession with Ben.