And the Imperials. I'm quite curious to know what deters certain parties to avoid stories centered around these factions. Is it their mentality, their methods, or just the way they're written?

My goal for this moment is to turn some who run from Imperial and YV stories to convert and embrace this genre. If you want an example of both factions, the link in my sig leads to a fic that will deal with both.

For YV stories, I've found that [link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=619927]Spike2002[/link] does a good job.

For a good fic concerning an Imperial, try the General Veers story by [link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=243335]CmdrMitthrawnuruodo[/link]

And dare I add this fic, [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11862555&replies=6]An Imperial State of Mind[/link] by my good friend Protege-of-Thrawn.

 

I think it's hard to crawl into their minds. I can't think like Palpatine or like the Vong. And if I can't think like them, I can't imagine what they would do in any given situation. I must admit I'm strangely fascinated by reading about the Vong in the NJO books, but I'm not sure if it's just because I feel that so many of those authors just assassinated the characters of Leia, Luke, Han and even Mara and turned the Solo children into whining, sniveling, annoying people (Anakin excepted) who really need a good smackdown.

 

I know this might sound strange, but I find them kind of dull. I don't even like them in the NJO novels. I tend to skim over the YV parts, because the scenes always happen exactly the same way, or so it seems to me.

Evil Ugly Yuzhaan Vong yells at some Inferior Subordinates, Cackles and Plots against the New Republic, and is Shocked and Appalled when the Infidels defeat him/her. They then Resolve to Get Them Next Time.

Sound familiar? I know that's not always true, but Nom Anor is the only Yuzhaan Vong I find even remotely interesting. The rest don't seem to have any depth, and just blend into one big Evil Vong for me. I actually wrote one Nom Anor scene for my fic Shades of Gray, but it was really difficult because he had to interact with other Vong, and I just don't get them.

I do have a difficult time with their mannerisms, cutoms, language, etc. I'm always afraid I'll write them innaccurately, so that's another reason I avoid writing them altogether.

Good question, AC.

 

Yuzzhan Vong remind me of cardboard. In fact, I think cardboard is more exciting...

 

Thanks for the praise Amphistaff_Chuck.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong being cardboard...are you mad??? They're some of the most diverse villains ever to grace the Star Wars universe. Just because they refer to everyone else as infidels doesn't make them boring.

You should read my story and then tell me if you think they're boring.

Lady Mairead: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11631334&replies=33]Villain Writing Support[/link] will help you with any problems you are having.

 

Actually, I loved the stuff about the shapers. The one with Nem Yim and Vua Rapuung...Conquest? That was one of my favorite NJO books. The problem, again, is that since I can't think like a Vong, I can't write about them.

 

*cough*

Villain Writing Support my dear Lady Padme.

 

I don't think the Vong are that hard to write. If there is no known YV procedure for a given situation, just try to make it up based on how they handle other situations.

When I think about getting inside there heads, I compare their mentality to that of the Axis Powers in WWII: They have the We're-superior-to-everyone-else attitude of Nazi Germany and the Fight-to-the-death mentality and religious fanatacism (sp?) of Japan in WWII

 

*resists urge to quote SW Gangsta Rap*

















































































*gives in to the urge*

You can't front on the Empire... To all you Vader-Haters out there... We'll blow your planet up!







As for the Vong, well, NO.

 

The thing that turned me away from the Vong was the end of Vector Prime. I didn't start reading VP until after a lot of other NJO books were released, so I knew the Vong were supposed to be this great, nearly-invincible force. But then there's this:

[blockquote]"Too bad we couldn't just shut the volcanoes off and freeze the [yammosk]," Jacen added...

"We can," [Anakin] said... "We can shut the volcanoes off. Or at least freeze the water around them."

"How are you going to do that?" Han asked...

"Evaporation," Anakin replied...

"Nothing steals energy faster," Jacen agreed, remembering the science lessons Anakin was recalling, lessons that he and Jaina, too, had been taught at the Jedi Academy.[/blockquote]

They then proceed to use Lando's old Umbrella-ships to reflect the yammosk's un-Force energy back at it (never did understand that part), and what do you know, Anakin's plan worked, all to well. The planet froze so much it blew up. And the Vong, scourges of the universe that they are, were defeated by a high school science project.

 

I find the Vong tedious with just a few exceptions. I think it has to do with the fact that we've had to deal with several years of the same ol, same ol baddie. Plus, after all this time, we still have learned little about their reason for leaving their original homes, or what their life is like outside of those that are fighting the war. Sure you have the shamed one's, but what about the rest? On top of that they worship pain and enjoy torture. Blech. At least the Imperials you could relate to in some way.

 

Thats what fanfic is for. I've given a reason for them leaving their galaxy, and I'm sure that someone else has their own reason for them leaving too.

 

i used to write a lot about imperials but a dream i had made me stop. i was onboard the death star 1 and imperials chased me down the corridor and i had absolutely no way to fight back. so i stopped.

i'd written a little bit about the vong as jaina's journal started to wrap up but not too much. after i finally finished vector prime, i was so happy to be finished. the vong were talked about so much in vp, there were so many chapters on them, eventually after 5 chapters of them, about how they were going to invade the galaxy, blah, blah, i just got tired of them.

same thing happens to me in fanfiction, too.

~aeryn

 

With my second story, I've leaned towards a lot more Imperial characters, I find them easy and fun to write - at times I think they have more depth then the 'good' characters.

 

The Vong to me are the ULTIMATE Mary Sues.

The Empire is full of bad guys trying to take over the galaxy for various reasons. There is variety. There is weakness along with strength. There is action. Most importantly, there is a good plot device.

The Vong were specifically designed to fight Luke Skywalker...

Don't believe me? Let me re-iterate somethings I've said to some of my friends. First there was the Vong who said, "We hate humans and all machines".

I thought, "Luke is a human and he has a machine hand and a machine friend. OK, I can live with that."

Then there was, "We hate Jedi."

I'm thinking, "Luke is 'King of the Jedi'. Well, I guess it would work...but now it's starting to sound personal."

Then came, "We hate twins."

Now I'm thinking, "Luke's a twin. What's next? 'We hate people with blue eyes?'"

It all sounds ridiculous to me.

inez

 

Spike2002, yes fan fic is a place to conjecture about these things, but the original question asked what turned me away from the Vong. The way they've been developed in the books hasn't impressed me and for the most part, killed most of my interest in them. At this point it would take good word of mouth about a story or a recommendation from someone who's tastes I trust.

inez, I don't quite see them as being develped to foil Luke. The Jedi in general, yes. But they hardly seem to care at all that Luke exists. They spend their time wringing their hands over Jacen and Jaina.

 

The simple fact that I just plain hate the complete NJO. I took a few books and read one or two paragraphs - but that was all I could bear to read. The whole story and especially the YV are just awfully constructed. To say the background idea is uninspired and artificial would be an understatement.

 

All of your points are good, inez_the_swampgirl.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong being cardboard...are you mad???

Am I mad? Quite mad. Deliriously so, in fact, and I enjoy it. The voices tell me so all the time.

They're some of the most diverse villains ever to grace the Star Wars universe.

This is simply your opinion. You're entitled to it, but that doesn't mean others have to agree. I've always found the Vong dull, because their motivations elude me. What makes them tick? Sure, we know they're loyal to their gods and they think everyone of everyone else in the galaxy as infidels, and they hate machines. But why are they taking over the galaxy? Why do they hate machines? Where did that develop? How did the belief in their gods develop? Was the galactic takeover an order from the gods? Are they doing it because their own homeworld is dying? Are they doing it for some other reason? Why do they hate Jedi? Why, why, why? They might have had potential once, but the authors of the EU have trasnformed the Yuzzhan Vong into an enemy as thin and flimsy as cardboard. There are no details, no motivation.

Why was most of the world drawn to Darth Vader? He had a vision

Come with me, and we will rule the galaxy as father and son

a purpose

Reset the chamber for Skywalker.

and a tragic past.

It is too late for me, son.

Audiences were drawn to Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker because he had common ground, he had human faults that all of us can identify with. The Vong are another race, another species entirely, with different thought patterns, different ways of being. In my own opinion, it was unwise for the creators of the EU to come up with such an antagonistic force--one so alien to the human mind that getting it right would be like tossing a needle from a balcony on the highest levels of Coruscant and then trying to find it at the bottom. Getting the Vong right isn't something that the Villian Help Thread can simply tell you how to do. Some people just can't--it's a matter of how they think. Others simply aren't interested. I fall into both categories.

 

I never liked the Vong mainly because they were made to be too invincible, too mean, too cold, and too powerful. The EU writers took them overboard and they killed any admiration I might have had for them.

The Empire is another story. While I loved that faction, I don't like reading fan fiction about them because they've kind of been written to death. The majority of the EU books were centered on them as the main baddie and I think it's time to move onto another good villain.

In my opinion a great bad guy is made when you can see their side of things. There were members of the Empire I could really understand. The Vong however, remain a mystery and that was their downfall.

 

We learn more and more about them with every book. Del Rey are just keeping everyone in suspense.

 

While the Empire looks interesting to me - after having played the game TIE Fighter - the Vong are a species I don't like.

I don't like them, but not because they are the way they are, but because they destroyed so many things.

For my own part, I've made up my mind not to follow the EU novels into that "Vong Crisis", because in the novels almost everything is violated what I loved of the Star Wars Universe. So many things are destroyed - it's like destroying huge underlying parts of the movie, for me.

The most interesting things of the Empire are - imho - to be found in the Past/Future novels by Zahn (apart from the other novels by Zahn) , in the TIE Fighter game and in some other bits.

 

IMHO, Del Rey, like Bantam, have no idea what they are doing and they are killing Star Wars. The first thing that put me off was the deaths of Chewbacca and Anakin Solo. The second thing that put me off was the Yuzzhan Vong.

What we learn about them doesn't explain their motivations. Why in the sweet name of the Force are they trying to take over the galaxy? That hasn't been explained yet. I'll use Vader again as good example--which, (again, only my opinion) the Vong are not.

In ANH, we learn that Darth Vader was the apprentice of Obi-wan "Ben" Kenobi. We also learn that he killed Luke's father. Story ends with the bad guys taking a major hit. But not a death blow.

In ESB, we're hit with this major revelation-BAM!-Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father? That must've been why he was hunting Luke so relentlessly, why he wanted him in the carbon freeze chamber! (See? We get the motivation here! WHOA! How refreshing.)

THAT is good character buildup. If Del Rey is going for the whole suspense thing as you say, then they're making a HUGE mistake dragging it out so long. Either way, some mistakes have been made. Bad ones. A lot of people think so, and it's not likely that so many would be wrong.

The Vong are not Star Wars villians. Vader, C'boath, Xizor...they all have certain qualities that make you love to hate them. I don't even like reading the Vong. They're boring. They drag things out way too far. I won't devote my energy to hating them, though.


I think the NJO in general was a mistake. Authors are focusing too much on realism (death, tragedy, pain, and the dark side) and not on capturing the essence of a Star Wars movie. Han and Leia fight all the time; Luke and Mara (my favorites-don't get me started on this) are just done WRONG, not to mention the fact that Jacen and Jaina have turned into complete brats. And to top it all off, the cardboard men come sweeping in to destroy them all. ECK.

But whatever suits your fancy. Maybe you see some merits in the Vong I don't. But I'm straining hard, and I still can't find anything worth liking.

 

^Very unfortunate. The truth, I mean.

 

why do i not want to write the Vong?

Well there are many reasons, first of being when ever and author talks about a 'Villip' all i can see is some one talking into a head of cabbage. secondly, i agree with a few people that have written here, i think that they were drawn up to be to powerful and undefeatable over the first few books, (the only ones where they really won were Rebel Dream and Rebel Stand) and i really didn't like that.

Personally when i get around to it i'm going to enjoy handing the Vong their **** on a platter. I have just grown a strong dislike for them as a whole.

 

author talks about a 'Villip' all i can see is some one talking into a head of cabbage.

coral skippers i understand but villips, i always imagined the same thing too, angel.

and no matter how strong the vong are, you can't say they don't have a weakness. bad guys and good guys have weaknesses. and i just can't believe, throughout this whole series, not one weakness has been found.

~aeryn