What Turns So Many of You Away From the Yuuzhan Vong?

Except for the whole "you-can-kill-them-by-running-a-saber-through-the-armpit" thing.

But I'll agree. I never see any psychological or tactical weaknesses. Or strengths, for that matter. There is no ground for understanding, there is no compassion nor hate, just a grinding, overwhelming sense of duty.

Cardboard is still the best word I can think of.

 

Aeryn. You obviously haven't read the NJO books. If they had "no weaknesses" then why have one third of their warrior caste been killed, including thousands at the Battle of Ebaq. And why have dozens of Vong been killed by Jedi Knights and YVH Hunter droids?

And don't get me started on the amount of YV ships destroyed.

 

And look how much of the Galaxy the Vong have still conquered. They may have taken some loses, but considering that they're probably outnumbered by the native forces of the galaxy, it doesn't really compensate. Loosing a third of your warrior-caste in the process of taking over the majority of the known galaxy isn't a weakness, its colatteral damage.

 

Aeryn. You obviously haven't read the NJO books. If they had "no weaknesses" then why have one third of their warrior caste been killed, including thousands at the Battle of Ebaq. And why have dozens of Vong been killed by Jedi Knights and YVH Hunter droids?

And don't get me started on the amount of YV ships destroyed.

Don't be so judgemental, Spike. I distinctly got the impression that Aeryn might not have been talking about physical weaknesses. Even if she was talking about purely physical weaknesses, that still doesn't warrant a comment like that. Maybe her interpretation of what happened is different than yours.

The reason I believe so many of the Vong have been killed is Jedi strength, not Vong weakness. The Jedi are strong, but they can never quite seem to be as strong as their new enemies. I see no mental, no tactical flaws in their thinking as a whole. Sure, individual thoughts are going to be flawed, but as a whole they seem to be operating too efficiently. They don't seem to be caught off guard by too much. And I don't see emotion driving them, just a sick worship of pain and disfigurement.

What makes them tick? Who are they? Why do they move so slowly? The pace in the NJO books is BAD. Collectively bad. Even Kathy Tyers, in Balance Point (the only NJO book I really and totally like) had pace problems with the Vong. They are not an interesting enemy to read.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't possible for fan fiction authors to make them interesting. I definetly love the Anakin Skywalker in the Episode II novel better than I loved Hayden Christienson's portrayal of Anakin. There are always differences between authors, actors, and artists. Things always look different through the eyes of others. It's called perspective.

 

<<< Then there was, "We hate Jedi." >>>

and

<<< Why do they hate Jedi? >>>

They didn't come into the galaxy hating Jedi, they didn't even know what a Jedi was. They came to hate Jedi as the invasion went along because the Jedi are the only only ones who have been consistently and effectively fighting them. They also admire the Jedi for that if you paid attention to what you were reading. They think the Jedi are the most admirable of the infidels, though they don't admire any infidels that much.

<<< Then came, "We hate twins." >>>

Actually, they all but worship twins. Thats why they're so intent on sacrificing Jacen and Jaina; they think their gods would see the sacrifice of twins as a major sacrifice.

<<< took a few books and read one or two paragraphs - but that was all I could bear to read. The whole story and especially the YV are just awfully constructed. To say the background idea is uninspired and artificial would be an understatement. >>>

How can you say the story was poorly constructed an uninspired when you haven't read it yet? A few paragraphs isn't enough to judge any book, much less a whole series.

<<< when ever and author talks about a 'Villip' all i can see is some one talking into a head of cabbage. >>>

I picture it kinda like a head of cabbage too...until it is "inverted," the villip equivilent of turning on a holo. Then I picture the cabbage opening up to reveal a 3-dimensional representation of the head of the person on the other villip.

I have more comments too make too in defense of the YV and the NJO, but I don't have time now; I have to get to my next class.

 

I think Sitara_min got it right about the perspective thing

It is a matter of perspective. What I might find great characterisation others may think is horrible and so forth.

So while its okay to have opinions and express those opinions, please respect that other people might have differing ones from yours. This a healthy debate at the moment, (which I consider fantastic) but I don't want to see it go down hill with personal attacks or disagreements.

Anyway, that was your friendly mod announcement, back to the discussion.

Kithera

 

Thank you, Kit. We all appreciate the hard work you guys do keeping things nice around here.

 

I distinctly got the impression that Aeryn might not have been talking about physical weaknesses.

thank you, sitara. i was referring to physical weaknesses.

~aeryn

 

*hits the air*

Spike 1, Assumptions 0

 

I didn't assume anything. I merely got an impression. It's the perspective thing again. Let's not get personal.

Continuing with the debate...

 

I for one avoid writing YV because I really don't think I know their culture well enough to write it yet. I think that the YV is the most complex 'villian' the SW universe has had so far, and a lot harder to write than the Imperials.

I avoid Imperials simply for the reason that I think they're somewhat boring. *coughjagcough* (Sorry, had to add that in. I couldn't resist!) Anyway, I think that people also tend to get bored with Imperials since they were done a lot in the published books and in the movies. I think people like to bring in unique ideas to their stories, which would probably mean creating a new villian.

 

THe Imperials might be boring, but a good example is ihmo Mr. Ossilege from the Corellian Trilogy.

 

Is everyone ignoring the second part of my post? I see no evidence of any of you that have posted in this thread having gone and read any of the fics I mentioned.

As stated, I hope to get a larger fanbase established for the Yuuzhan Vong and the Imperials.

 

I saw it. I'm already a big fan of the Imps, but there's not much you can do to get me to read Vong. I'm pretty much anti-NJO. I'm sure there are others, though.

 

*sniff* Sitara. I'm insulted...

 

Imperial stories:

I'm afraid the EU rather put me off Imperial stories in general. While I can see the New Republic fighting pieces of the Empire for years after the Battle of Endor, I don't see it surviving as a single entity. I have trouble seeing it remain a coherent, viable enemy for the NR as long as it does in the books. I can easily see admirals and Grand Moffs taking big chunks and turning them into their own warring factions, but to make the Empire still a huge threat after the Emperor dies is just silly, in my opinion. Everything didn't just fall apart at the end of the Battle of Endor, but it also didn't remain wholly intact.

I feel like the Empire in the post-RotJ era has been done to death. It would take a story by an author I know well for me to read an Imperial story in that era, especially if it follows the EU. However, seeing the Empire in the intertrilogy era could be fascinating. And I love a good Palpatine story - now there's a fascinating villain.

Vong stories:

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why I'm still reading the NJO books. I only find them moderately interesting, and I seem to read them only to complain about them. The first novel failed to capture my interest in the Vong, and it hasn't seemed to improve much. These days, I tend to just skim the Vong parts. They reiterate everything in them later.

Oddly, the only NJO book I've really and truly enjoyed was Traitor. I'm not sure why - maybe it was because we saw how someone can take down the Vong from within. Plus I like Jacen.

As for the rest of it, it's either been completely non-sequitur or so completely obvious that I could have written it at twelve. Ruin, for example - "Ooh, they're allergic to tree pollen!" "That's no trouble, we'll just grow different armor in the space of two weeks! And it'll make us even better! Oh, and while we're at it, we'll destroy Ithor! Ha!"



Most of the time I haven't seen the logic for what the Vong are doing, and when I can't see logic, I lose interest. I think the authors missed huge opportunities with Elegos and Jacen for really learning about the Vong and showing us their logic through the eyes of someone we can really understand. I don't particularly care that the Jedi and company don't understand them - but we as readers need to understand their motives if they're to be sympathetic characters at all.

I also think that the authors have, for the most part, had a lot of pacing problems with the Vong. Those sections of the books move much slower than the parts with the good guys. I don't mind slow books - I mind it when the pace jerks around so much that I get mental whiplash.

More later, but I must be off.

Mel

 

I have no pacing problems with writing Yuuzhan Vong. Have I? Someone read and comment.

 

probably because it's hard to conjure up a Yuuzhan Vong love story. 90% of fanfiction are love stories of some sort, or become that eventually. Can't have a story without love (blech) Anyway, that's what I thing.

Personally, I think it's harder to crawl into their minds. And lets me honoust, the Yuuzhan Vong aren't that appealing.

Imperials? I dunno. Maybe it's past that time for imperials.

 

Insulted? Then I've done my job.





















































Just kidding! *sends roses and chocolate*


I don't know about you, Spike, but most of the EU writers in general have had pacing probelms with the Vong. It doesn't make for a very good foundation for fanfic authors to bounce off of.

 

Spike, I guess I wasn't clear enough there - I was talking about the professional authors. I feel like I'm going from a kung fu scene to The Scarlet Letter and back again in terms of pacing when I read the NJO novels. It just feels like there's a bad editing job going on. I can't speak for fan fic.

Amphistaff-Chuck, I understand your devotion to this genre, but not every genre appeals to every person. I don't particularly enjoy action stories because action doesn't appeal to me. I'll read action from authors I like or if I get a recommendation from someone whose taste I trust, but I'm not going to sit down at my computer and consciously seek out an action story to read. Is this being closed-minded? Probably, yeah. But fan fiction is something I do for enjoyment. I read what I enjoy - for one thing, I don't have time to do more than that. Right now, stories about the Vong aren't something I enjoy.

Mel

 

A suggestion, Chuck, Spike, and anyone else who is listening who likes the Vong and the Imps: Instead of trying to convince those who don't agree with you, why don't you gather together those who do? Form a club, hold writing contests, etc. Strengthen your genre from the inside, and then maybe people will come of their own will.

I might even be intersted in joining to write the Imperials.

 

Personally, I believe not many people are in the imperials, because there aren't strong, interesting personalities out there.
I mean - everything in the imperial structure looks like uniformity, it's hard to imagine an interesting personality within blank white stormtrooper uniforms.

 

There ARE a couple of intersting imperial fics out there... Darth Lothi's "Long time gone" is an amazing fic that got scooped up by the archives...

As for the "Vong", aside the fact that I can't seem to take the name serioulsy (rhymes with a childish term for male anatomy, and from what I hear it seems appropriate as many folks think they're ****s) It just never appealed to me...

I read Zahn's Heir series and was board silly.. the NJO and what not jsut isn't my thing...

 

I read Zahn's Heir series and was board silly.. the NJO and what not jsut isn't my thing...

*eyes widen* Really? I loved the Thrawn Trilogy. See my icon.

Of course, I am the most loyal of Timothy Zahn's fans. *grins*

Let me also point out that TTT is VERY different from the NJO. I like HttE, DFR, and TLC. I HATE the NJO. One has a cool Mara. The other has an annoying Mara. (*politely requests no snide comments from Mara haters* I respect your opinion, please respect mine. Thank you! )

As for Imperials...I avoid writing stormtroopers, because from what I've read they're just brainwashed drones (some theories also suggest that all stormtroopers are clones of some sort) but officers and pilots are pretty interesting. You can't brainwash people like that, because, as Mara pointed out in Vision of the Future, brainwashing would take away the fighting edge that would make such a person valuable to the cause in the first place. So the officers and pilots have to have some reason for being where they are and in the positions they're in. You have to wonder at their motivations, and think about what might happen if they were thrust into the truth of the war. They can be very interesting people, if you'll let them be.

I remember reading a story once, in the archives I think, about an Imperial officer. I don't recall the name of the author, but the story was very well written. It was about an officer on Endor who had a young son he'd left at home. I remember a certain part of the story where he saw Luke Skywalker, and recognized the same look in Luke's eyes as in that of his toddler son. When he looked at Luke, the officer recalled something his son had said... Miss you, Daddy....and thought Luke looked like he was thinking the same thing. It was such a moving story.

EDIT: Said story was the aforementioned Long Time Gone by Darth Lothi

 

I must admit, I've only written the Vong in anti-hero rather than outright villain perspectives, which is probably why so many people are drawn to my story. They like the "Conquest" style writing of a Yuuzhan Vong allying with the Jedi to combat something else, be it other Vong or something even worse.