PT What were Palpatine's backup plans?

I think we already discussed this. I think that's just one of those instances where George is speaking imprecisely. He's telling Dooku he wants to bring Anakin into the Sith fold the same way they did Ventress.

 

That might make more sense - especially given how Palpatine used "You might be training Ventress as a Sith apprentice so you can overthrow me - violating the Rule of Two" as an excuse to order Dooku to kill her.

 

I think the best way to view this is that there are a few destinations that need to sought, and various avenues to reach those destinations. Let's look at this from an overall story arc. Palpatine needs these to happen:

1. Become Supreme Chancellor of the Republic
2. Make the Republic more powerful
3. Obtain more personal power over the Republic
4. Get rid of the Jedi
5. Convert the Republic rule to Imperial rule

So let's start with the first task:

1. Become Supreme Chancellor of the Republic:

As of TPM Palpatine is just a senator on some planet (Naboo). He is not even the ruler of that planet which falls onto the queen (Amidala). He needs find a way to get the current Chancellor removed and create some sympathy towards his planet and himself that would allow him to be the favorite to take the old Chancellor's place. A Chancellor is expected to keep peace and order among the Republic and his/her inability to maintain that sense of order would weaken his/her position. In this case, failing to protect the ruler of a planet as well as his/her people from another faction/federation would create a fear that any faction could easily attack another planet. Trade blockade is one thing, but assassination is another thing. An example is that World War I started with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. So Palpatine's goal is to have Queen Amidala assassinated, make Valorum look completely inept to act properly (which he will because he likely really is on the payroll of the Federation), get Valorum removed and become sympathetic because his planet ruler was killed. In that sense, he creates this trade blockade to capture Queen Amidala. It's not clear whether the Trade Federation knew the purpose was to kill Queen Amidala, but that would have somehow been carried out, potentially by Maul.

If the Trade Federation accept a settlement, then the game's over. Valorum succeeds in his plan to have the Jedi make peace, doesn't look inept, and stays in power.

Darth Sidious likely wouldn't let this happen. He wants Queen Amidala dead.

Qui-Gon recognizes something doesn't make sense. In no way does Sidious intend for Amidala to sign the treaty. If that happens then that's the same if the Trade Federation accepts a settlement. Queen Amidala is meant to be killed once she is captured. Sidious may tell the Trade Federation that he wants that treaty signed, but he won't go through with it. So let's get this next part clear. The Jedi effectively ruin Sidious's original plan to kill Amidala by having her escape Naboo. Unfortunately for them, they are forced to land on Tatooine since their hyperdrive is damaged. Now Palpatine needs to go to his next plan which is to have Maul go after them and either kill her directly or bring her back to Naboo to be killed. Once again, this doesn't happen as the Jedi thwart Sidious and Maul once more. So now to Palpatine's chagrin, she is now on Coruscant with him.

Uh huh. Uh huh. Sure. Well time for more improvisation. Well she's alive, so maybe she her being here in person can create that sympathy and have her plead about the death of her people. It's still expected that despite her pleas Valorum won't act and she will call for a vote of no confidence. Success! Well now to wait for the vote for a new Chancellor. Now him winning wasn't any guarantee though it wouldn't be surprising if he had many allies behind the scenes or was able to bribe people. But once again, success is had and he becomes Supreme Chancellor.

Who knows? Maybe he still is an important part of the plan and he ultimately becomes the Separatist leader. Maybe Dooku is groomed to kill Maul. In the end, it might not matter who it is. Someone has to do it which gets into the next part of the plan.

2. Make the Republic more powerful:

In many ways the Republic appears to be somewhat decentralized. It reminds of the United Nations where there is a collection of differing nations who join together for a common cause. However the United Nations isn't necessarily more powerful than an individual nation. For example the Secretary General of the United Nations is not more powerful than, say, the President of the United States. Why? The United States has more military might than the United Nations. Therefore in order for the Republic to become more powerful than any individual planet or faction, it needs to have a large army of its own. Now the Supreme Chancellor can't just say, "I want to make a giant army of the Republic," and have everyone agree to that. Imagine if the Secretary General of the United Nations said the same thing. There's no reason to create a new army in times of peace, and therefore there has to be some kind of war. In this case Palpatine wants to create a civil war within the Republic. Now his alter ego Sidious, with the help of one of his apprentices or at least a supporter (Dooku, Maul, anyone), he can provider leadership to factions that are not happy with the Republic and want to leave. Maybe Palpatine has already created policy that would make them more upset (higher taxes, sanctions, etc). In the end however, these factions are upset and want to leave. Now they may be too cowardly to do this on their own and therefore a charismatic leader would be helpful to lead the charge. Maybe if Maul were alive, Dooku would still be groomed for this job, or maybe even Maul himself would be the person. However I don't see Maul as being very political and likely wouldn't be the best fit here. In any case, Maul is dead so Dooku can be both the Sith apprentice and the leader of the Separatists. Now with the great leadership, the Separatists gain strength. The Republic can do three things now, either let the Separatist be successful and leave the Republic, convince the Separatist to peacefully rejoin the Republic or start a Civil War.

So Palpatine now needs to do a few things to proceed with his next plan:

1. Create the Separatist movement and provide it with a leader.
2. Create an independent army of the Republic.
3. Start the Civil War.

With the first part in the works, he now needs for the Republic to vote to create an army of the Republic with its Military Creation Act. Now this of course will gain opposition, and probably to his little surprise, former Queen Amidala is now Senator Amidala ready to oppose its creation. And once again, she is wanted dead. If she gets axed, then anyone sympathetic to the opposition may also find a similar fate. Perhaps her one vote won't make a difference, but the fear of her death may sway people to vote in favor of the Military Creation Act. So now the simple plan is to kill her, create fear within the opposition, and pass the Military Creation Act. Once the Act is approved, he can then quickly raise an army legally. Of course the fastest way would be to recruit the armies of individual factions and planets within the Republic to ban together. However, those armies will still be technically under the control of their respective planets and therefore not necessarily strengthening his grasp on the Republic. It would be better for him to quickly create his own independent army. Well he doesn't have long and therefore he can either have new droids built, or perhaps clones would work. If he is to do a clone army this will have to be done well in advance of the Civil War and in secret. He would need one of the Jedi to order the army from the Kaminoans secretly. Enter Sifo-Dyas.

Okay, so now let's kill that annoying lady Padme. Now the bounty hunter making the clones could potentially do it. Maybe having him directly involved with her death would lead clues back to Kamino. Therefore another bounty hunter could be hired. Hey, how about that changeling Zam Wesell? Alright so Zam will kill Padme. Easy. Whoops. Foiled by handmaidens and Jedi once again. But hey, at least people know she's a target for assassination, plus she gets scared back to her home planet and therefore can't be part of the vote. So despite the setback, Palpatine is still ready to roll, particularly with the help with our favorite gungan.

Uh huh. Uh huh. Sure. So now it is time to reveal the clone army to the Republic and start the Civil War. I believe that the assassination of Padme would have led her death back to Nute Gunray. As stated before, sometimes assassinations can prompt war and the killing of a prominent Republic senator may provoke outrage enough to start the Civil War. However, those meddling Jedi kept thwarting that plan, however the execution of Padme and two prominent Jedi was enough to prompt the Jedi Order to act against the Separatist army and ultimately start the war anyways. The presentation of the clone army just needed any Jedi to find the clone facility. I honestly believe that Obi Wan was not meant to find the clone facility in Kamino, though things worked out anyways. There may have been plans for some Jedi, any Jedi to be led back to the cloning facility but at the time of AOTC it was meant to stay hidden. I believe that Palpatine would have prefered the reveal after the passage of the Military Creation Act as asking for an army and suddenly having any army show up before the vote would have drawn too many questions. It was meant to stay hidden, as evidence by Kamino's deletion from the archives, but that meddling Obi Wan once again put wrench into that. However, it all worked out anyways as his capture forced the Jedi to act against the Separatists.

As stated above, it would have helped stop the opposition against the Military Creation Act and also propel the Republic into Civil War.

It might still pass, but her presence put the Act in danger of being rejected.

That will depend on what the Jedi Order will do, whether they believe there is a Sith running the Republic and side with Obi Wan and Dooku, or if they fear Obi Wan has become a traitor and part of the Separatist. If the Jedi side with Obi Wan and Dooku, then this would definitely start the Civil War with the Jedi being traitors to the Republic and also allow the Republic to try to kill and eliminate the Jedi Order. In fact it is possible that Palpatine would want Dooku to do this because it would be the most convenient way of having both the Civil War and elimination of the Jedi to occur at the same time. If the Jedi side against Dooku and Obi Wan, then Palpatine would likely try to have those two eliminated, officially ending the Clone Wars. By then he would already have had the clone army and emergency powers so the elimination of those two would be preferable. In fact the betrayal of Obi Wan against the Republic may have Anakin side against his master and further groom him to be more under the influence of Palpatineo become the next apprentice.

3. Obtain more personal power over the Republic

See above with Palpatine gaining emergency powers.

4. Get rid of the Jedi

Since Obi Wan turns down Dooku and the Jedi remain sympathetic to the Republic, he needs the Jedi become traitors in a different way. The easiest way is for them to want to assassinate him, thus making themselves traitors. He does this by revealing himself as the Sith Lord to Anakin and forcing Windu to come kill him.

Anakin wants Palpatine alive to help save Padme. Had Windu just arrested Palpatine, I would imagine that Anakin would have made a deal with Palpatine for him to escape in order to help Padme.

It would smooth Anakin's relationship with the Jedi, but in the end, doesn't eliminate Anakin's need for Palpatine to save Padme.

As can be seen, many times his original plan was likely thwarted and yet he managed to rely on his contingencies. Palpatine is extremely cunning and improvisation was the key to his success.

 

No, I absolutely agree! Vader is very conflicted at this point, and he no doubt feels his options narrowing. I do think he still has hope to manipulate Luke to his side, hence the contacts and the continued search for him. He seems pretty sure that, with the Emperor´s help, they will manage to turn him...

Exactly. After being rejected by Luke, I think his bet is for the Emperor and him to manage to turn Luke together, and then Luke, already turned, to choose to side with him and betray Palpatine. It´s a risky move, but he has not many options and the relationship with Palpatine is already tense enough, with the Emperor no doubt aware of his betrayal at this point.

It would have been amazing to get him more room for development. Great actor and interesting character indeed, it would have been fantastic to get a deeper view of his logic and perspective...

 

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

The thing is Lucas would change his mind all the time with what he says behind the scenes. Are you sure the Clone Wars doesn't overwrite this? If it's not on screen then "YES" there is leeway. And that quotes is not information we see on screen.

That's like the story meeting where Lucas tells Lawrance Kasdan Padme lived and Yoda wouldn't be any good in the lightsaber fight (Which Kasdan is on record as hating and wants to see Yoda fight.)

How does it make sense for Sidious to order Dooku to kill Ventress and then get Dooku to except Anakin into a Ventress role later?

 

Agreed on both counts.
There is leeway to interpret what is shown on screen. Esp since much of what is mentioned here is NOT onscreen.

And as for things not making sense.
The plan is apparently that Dooku fight and kill Obi-Wan and then fight Anakin.
If Dooku wins however, he is NOT to kill him.
So Dooku kills Obi-Wan but even when he has Anakin at his mercy, he does not do the same to him.
Why, fair play?
That it would be unsporting to rob the Republic of two prominent Jedi?
This would lead to questions.

Also, if Dooku wins, then we have Obi-Wan dead and Anakin beaten.
So how is Palpatine supposed to get back to Coruscant?
Is Dooku meant to surrender after he has won?
"Ha ha, I've kidnapped your chancellor and beaten the two jedi sent to rescue him. So now I must surrender."
And if not and he takes Palpatine away, what then?

But consider this: at the start of RotJ, Vader has been sent to make sure the DS2 is ready in time.
This was not by choice as far as I can gather, but orders.
And when the emperor arrives and Vader has made sure the schedule is kept, one of the first things Palpatine says is "And now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker."
So Vader wanted to leave and find Luke.
And after that. it is Palpatine who says "Only TOGETHER can we turn him to the dark side."
So it is not Vader that says this, but Palpatine.
Now once he has been told this, it is possible that Vader starts to believe it but that is not certain.
Also, Vader is then told that his work here is done but he is not given permission to leave and instead told to go to the SSD and wait for further orders.

From all this, I think Vader MIGHT have had some hope that if he could get Luke alone and far away from Palptine, then maybe he could do what he failed to do on Bespin.
But Palpatine crushes that option and keeps Vader close by and orders him to bring Luke to him.
So now Vader knows he is screwed.

As I said above, it is possible that Vader had some hope to get Luke on his side early on in RotJ.
If he could get to Luke alone and no Palpatine nearby.
But that is not an option as Palpatine keeps Vader on a very short leash.
Possibly to prevent this very thing and he is the one who says that both of them are needed to turn Luke.
Vader apparently didn't think so at the start of RotJ and it is not clear if he really thinks this later or he is just following orders.

Plus, as I've said before, if we include the PT in this, then Vader has seen pretty much this once before, then he was in the Luke role.
So he has no reason to think that Palpatine would hesitate an instant before letting/ordering Luke to kill him. Or that Palpatine would allow a turned Luke and Vader to both remain alive.
So he knows how this will play out and his best outcome is to kill Luke. Either because Luke refuses to turn or in the fight.

Lastly, if Vader wants Palpatine dead, simply don't block Luke's strike.
If it hits then Palpatine dead. And since Luke killed in hate, he would turn and Vader is now the Master.

[/QUOTE]

Very much agreed!

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I've wondered about this. How vulnerable do we ever really see Palpatine in the movies and TV shows? He's a master of deception and misrepresenting the truth. The embodiment of the world insidious.

If Vader doesn't block Luke's lightsaber is that really it for the Emperor? And what happens if Anakin doesn't cut off Mace Windu's arm? Is Darth Sidious killed in the Chancellor's Office? Is Sidious ready for this and in no danger at all? Does he ignite his own lightsaber in an impossible split instant and at speeds beyond perception block the strike. Can Darth Sidious stop a lightsaber with his hands or call upon some other ability that renders it as harmless as the beam of a flashlight when it comes in contact with his body? There is no way to know, Vader always stepped in.

Is Darth Sidious's reputation on it's own enough that Darth Vader dare not block the strike because if Darth Sidious can stop it, Darth Sidious will kill Vader for failing to defend him?

Never thought of this. Does Darth Sidious have another entirely different plan for the end of the Clone Wars if Anakin is killed? Does Dooku escape and hold the Chancellor hostage. With Palpatine captured does a leadership issue or other huge destabilizing problem happen in the Republic? Do more systems decide to leave? Is there an issue with money? The military? Problems in the Senate? Could it result in the Jedi Knights having to temporarily take control of the Republic or be forced to take some other very unpopular action that Palpatine can spin later as treason and motivation for Order 66?

 

I got the feeling that this was already in Vader´s mind, and Palpatine, in his great manipulative self, was playing on those insecurities. After all, Vader already tried and failed to turn Luke on his own, and yet he keeps looking obsessively for him. I don´t think he was doing that so eagerly just to provide Palpatine with a replacement for him; I think Luke opened a door for Vader that he didn´t even considered before, and that´s simply to rule the galaxy himself, with his son by his side.

Excellent point. Vader really has no way to know, but I guess is that he is pretty sure that the Emperor has some ace up his sleeve and he won´t just stand there and let himself be killed because he trusted his (already treacherous) apprentice. Besides, what happens if Luke does kills the Emperor, and then reverts to his "join me, leave the Dark Side, leave the Empire" speech? what can Vader do then? He must be turned 100%, without hesitations, for Vader´s plan to come to realization...

 

Without risk: No reward. Palpatine's an adrenaline junky.

 

It's faincaitng how the Sith Lords are always trying to replace one another but never openly. In Return of the Jedi they are both aware a reckoning is fast approaching, and they are having conversations on the Second Death Star where they are basically saying it but never in those explicit words, but both Sith Lords know the other's meaning. The entire relationship is a series of check mates and collaboration caused by mutual ambition where they both know the final success of working together will be one of them killing the other one, and they are both actively helping the other get to that point with confidence they won't be the one who gets killed.

I think Palpatine keeps Vader at the Death Star after it is complete because he know what Vader is trying to do in getting Luke to join him, because Palpatine is doing the same thing. Vader needs room away from Palpatine if he's going to have any chance of trying to win Luke over to his side a second time. So Palpatine is keeping Vader on a short leash.

But there is more too it than that. Why let Vader even get near Luke? It's still a risk for Palpatine, and the Emperor even sends Vader alone to Endor.

First and most of all Palpatine is supremely confident in his abilities. Beyond that, I think it's because Palpatine knows Vader is the best bait he's got for luring Luke in and turning him to his side. Vader is the key to turning Luke. Palpatine might be able to kill Luke, but he doesn't want that. He want's Luke for a Sith Lord and he needs Vader to do that.

But is Palpatine holding Vader at Endor for that reason? If we believe his dialogue, Palpatine is not aware Luke has come to Endor. It's Vader who scenes this. Or did Palpatine foresee Luke being there, but some how Luke's actual arrival was hidden in the Force from the Emperor?

**** This is totally off topic, and there is nothing to back this up in the movies..... or discount it. So this is a questions to get people's opinion. Is it possible Palpatine is not able to see Luke through the Force when he comes to Endor because Yoda as a spirit is able to conceal a few key small details about the future from the Emperor? Small details that being unaware of leave holes in Palpatine's plans? Not saying they unravel his plans, but enough that they take Palpatine's usual advantage away and give Luke and Vader more of a fair chance?

 

I think it was more that in Palpatine's hubris he could not see what was right in front of him.
He has become arrogant and a little complacent. It parallels ROTS where inversely it is the Jedi that, in their place of power, have become blinded to what seems to be an obvious truth.

Palpatine not sensing Luke's presence backs up his not sensing that Vader could actually turn back. He sees no merit in familial or compassionate love, and therefore cannot fathom it's true power. He partly sees Vader is conflicted, and sees Luke feels compassion for his father, but does not truly comprehend the implications. Only Luke sees Vader's true internal struggle with any clarity, Palpatine is clouded and focused on his end goal, but is missing the big picture.

It makes sense that only Vader senses Luke - he has a connection to him - Palpatine only sees Luke as another tool.

 

Good points. We know that Dooku and Yoda had special connection Palpatine could exploit on The Clone Wars because of their close relationship as Master and Apprentice.

What's interesting about this is it was Palpatine who manipulated the force to aide in the Jedi becoming blind to what was around them. In a way the ability to use the Force is like one of the five senses. The Force informs the Jedi what is going on around them the same way as eyes, ears, touch, etc. Once the Shroud of the Darkside fell over things Palpatine was able to hide huge galactic events from the Jedi. Things like the entire Clone Army and the very fact he was a Sith Lord.

So it wasn't just the Jedi loosing touch or becoming corrupted by power. Palpatine stripped them of their strongest sense and he did it in a way that they were totally oblivious too. So the Jedi weren't even aware of what they were missing. They were missing information without knowing they were missing it. And huge things like the Clones.

They say if a person looses one sense the other sense become more acute and stronger. If we compare the Jedi's use of the Force to sight. Palpatine didn't make them blind. If he took away their sight, then their other senses would compensate.

No, what Palpatine did was make the Jedi selectively blind to specific things. So they think they are seeing everything, but then an elephant walks down the street and even when they look right at it, they can't see it. It's like the elephant is invisible. But the Jedi aren't alarmed because they don't even know they're not seeing it. They see everything else that's going on, or so they think.

And by the time the Jedi understand they can no longer trust their ablities with the Force to give them the full picture, it's too late. It's too late to try old fashioned police work. It's too late to get outside help.

I think what sometimes gets confused as arrogance on the part of the Jedi is their certainly about the Force. They're operating on a different level than me and you and the regular characters in the Star Wars movies. They are seeing behind things and have information we can't get. It's like someone telling you something isn't true when you see and hear it. Who are you going to believe me or your own eyes?

It's interesting that Luke Skywalker has cut himself off from the Force in The Last Jedi. This means his non-force senses are compensating after Luke was tricked by Snoke and Ben Solo. Maybe there is logic to what Luke did?

And maybe Yoda did to Palpatine what Palpatine did to the Jedi, hiding things in the Force.

 

My thoughts

Become the Supreme Chanceller of the Republic

So lets look at the steps

The Senate passes taxation of the trade routes, while Palpatine convinces the Trade Federation as Sidious that direct action is needed to protest this move. They pick Naboo which is weak militarily. At this point with the blockade, Palpatine is generating sympathy.

Valorium has also been accused of courruption

As stated in the opening craw, the Senate is paralyzed by infighting and Valorium can't break that stalemate so he secretly dispatches the Jedi without the approval of the Senate.

The Jedi arrive on Naboo to try to force a settlement, this triggers an invasion of the planet and the brutalization of the population

So lets say that they do force a settlement which wasn't going to happen. Palpatine can stand up and show the ineffectual leadership of Valorium to control the Senate. He can point to the corruption accusations, he can point to the policies of the government under the chancellor causing the blockade, he can point to the dispatching of the Jedi without the Senate's knowledge of consent as a breach of rules. At this point the Supreme Chanceller was likely to be impeached, or at the very least not be able to win another term in office, and Palpatine would have used the sympathy for the attack on the sovereignty of his world to sweep him into office.

But the invasion happened, I doubt that the death of Padme was at all neccessary to his plan. If she was dead she was a martyr, if she was alive and imprisoned she was a was an a living martyr, if she was forced to sign the trade federation treaty which the Senate could not accept because it was signed under force of invasion she was a martyr. I mean the death at the hands of the Trade Federation where they execute her would have its benefits, but it wasn't necessary, and the fact that she was there to ask for the vote of no confidence was powerful. However if she was imprisoned or executed I have no doubt that Palpatine would have called for the vote of no confidence and likely would have won it.

You point to the events of the assassination of Ferdinand as the start of WW1, and you are correct, but the alliance system of the turn of the century earth would have lead to WW1, Ferdinand's death was just one of a thousand match sticks laying around that would have started that war.

As mentioned before if the Treaty gets signed to make the invasion "Legal" the Supreme Chanceller loses because he allowed a treaty to be signed under gun point, and you can bet that the Senate would effectively split with Palpatine leading the "This isn't right side". The whole treaty that the Trade Federation wanted signed on behalf of Sidious was irrelevant in terms of Palpatine ascending to power, that treaty was more about selling the Trade Federation on the blockade and invasion, they were manipulated into believing that an invasion of a peaceful planet over a tax law would ever be accepted by the citizens of the Galaxy or the Senate.

When Palpatine said that he was glad to see the Queen alive, I believe that the only thing that he was honest about in the trilogy because it worked out even better then he had planned by her escaping. Instead of her being dead, or imprisoned and pleading on TV for help, she would replace him in the senate in pleading for her people and her vote on non confidence.

Even when Maul tries to grab her to take her back to sign the treaty, her signature would have been irrelevant, if she refuses to sign and is imprisoned, forced tosign or killed she's a strong sympathy piece for Palpatines rise to power, if she signs the treaty Palpatine wins if its accepted by the Senate as he becomes the Senator for a planet that was viciously invaded and eventually Palpatine wins the vote for office, if the Senate doesn't accept the treaty, Palpatine leads the fight to free his people and becomes a hero.

Oh and the Jedi thing, again its timing, the Jedi arrived and Sidious triggered the invasion, so now Valorium has

Rumors of corruption
He couldn't break the Senate deadlock on the blockade
He dispatched the Jedi secretly like they were his own enforcers.
The dispatched Jedi made the situation worse as their arrival triggered the invasion

The Supreme Chanceller bumbled into a trap the minute that the taxation of the trade routes was enacted, he triggered the steel claws the minute that the Trade Federation ships arrived in orbit. Palapatine's ascension was more of a matter of when then if.

2) Make the Republic Stronger

I would argue the opposite, Palpatine wanted to make the Republic weaker, the timing of the arrival of the Grand Army was actually inconvienient, he wanted a strong bully of a enemy, and a weak Republic facing them. In fact he would have dictated when the Trade Federation would have been delayed. But if he could have held the GA in check. He wanted to Padme to have some strong sympathy in the Senate, again whether she died (Martyr the military creation bill gets voted down), she flees as she does (The military creation bill possibly gets voted down, but the assassination of her points to the CIS which means Palpatine gets emergency powers). She rallies support and votes down the Military (The CIS rolls through the Republic with no real opposition and the people and Senate panic and Palpatine gets emergency power, and then he finds a way to slip information into the Jedi's hands which leads them to the ready built army), the benefit of Padme leading the way to the CIS rolling through the Republic is that not only would Palpatine have gained emergency powers because if Jar Jar hadn't called for it, someone else would have (probably the banking clan), but Palpatine would have marginalized his biggest political opponents. Palpatine would have loved for the Republic to take a good boot in the face and it would have forced the Jedi to defend the Republic until an army was built or found which means less Jedi.

Obtain more personal power over the Republic

Emergency powers allowed Palpatine to begin to rewrite the constitution in favor of security. He would also gain the ability to do things without Senate oversight or vote requirement. By this point, Palpatine was pretty much the Emperor and the Republic was rapidly heading towards being an Empire in the name of security and the people would have accepted it, especially in the core worlds where the thought of a CIS victory would have been terrifying. He even used the Emergency Powers to bring the Jedi directly under his comnnand. Before the emergency powers you would ask the Jedi for help, now Palpatine and the Republic could order it. As had been mentioned in the book, Palpatine had started to enact things like sector governors to help speed up the war efforts.

Get Rid of the Jedi

That was the easiest part of his plan. By having over sight over the Jedi Council, combined with their willingness to defend the republic, he was able to spread the Jedi out and embeded them with his personal killing machines. Since the start of the war, Palpatine and Dooku were engineering crisis and traps that thinned out the order. In the end their deaths had been guaranteed as soon as they agreed to defend the republic and take on ranks in the FA.

Convert to Imperial Rule

By the end of the war, the Republic was the Empire without declaration, Pademe crying about Liberty dying, it had been dead and buried for years, the master stroke was the extermination of the Jedi and having the people accept it, and I would bet a lot of people cheering it. The Military was there to keep order, I would bet the Sector Governors were already in control over theses systems, personal liberties had probably been eroded to zero to support the war effort.

Palpatine's rise was inevitable it was going to happen as soon as he convinced the Trade Federation to park in orbit over his home world. It was just a matter of how long it was going to take.

WW1 was going to happen no matter what, without the death of a nobody Grand Duke, it still would have happened, whether it came from the threat to the Empires of those days, or a slight at a family reunion (since more European rulers were related or at least friends)

In terms of Padme, I'm sure she could have been more useful to Palpatine alive after the Empire rose as the political opponent or outright rebel that would have allowed him to crack down even more. Plus I'm sure he would take great pleasure in watching her suffer.

 

As I said earlier;
The senate was not getting anywhere and so the Chancellor acted on his own and showed some initiative.
If it had worked, that the TF gave up and the blockade was resolved. Yes Valorum might get some enemies in the senate, like those that are bought by the TF. But to others, he could be seen as quite the hero.
He cut through all the red-tape and BS of the Senate and acted and brought an end to a crisis.
I can see him getting fairly popular in some circles from that.
He acts instead of talks. He is a man of action and one that sides with the people against the corporations.

And sure, Palpatine might use him sending Jedi against him, not that he does in the film, and maybe get rid of him that way.
But how would that look?
The chancellor that acted and sided with the small planet Naboo against the bullies of the TF has been smeared and kicked out. And now the corporate lapdog Palpatine has been elected in his place.
I think this could make Palpatine look less than good.

Also, the TF blockaded Palpaine's planet and now Valorum has acted to set it free.
How would it look for Palpatine to pay that back by stabbing Valorum in the back and try to remove him from office?
Palpatine would likely look really ungrateful.

And early on Palpatine was keen to be seen as "the good guy".
So had Valorum managed to end the blockade and get the TF to back off, he might be seen as "The good guy" and thus Palpatine can't betray him and still look good.

I think that Palpatine might then opt for the direct approach, have Maul kill Valorum and pin it on the TF.

Not sure what you mean, it seemed to me that the senate would accept the treaty and it also seemed that the Republic has no laws against treaties signed under duress.
Now Palpatine could likely use and get public opinion on his side and show that Valorum was weak and corrupt, saying "What are you doing? This treaty was obviously signed at gun point, how can you treat it as legitimate?"

I think the TF would likely kill her after she had signed the treaty as they likely would not want her telling her side of the story to the galaxy.
What would likely happen is, she is forced to sign the treaty and makes some "televised" appearance where she welcomes her new TF "allies" and says that a new day has dawned for her people." And then she dies in a tragic "accident."

It seemed to me that the senate did not even believe the invasion even happened.
If they did, then the TF has now in effect declared war on the Republic and things are now really bad.
And the Jedi were never mentioned in the senate so they would not have any idea that they were there or that their presence had any effect.

As I said above, had the Jedi managed to get the TF to back down and the blockade removed, Valorum would look strong instead of weak.
Yes he might have used unorthodox methods but he got results.

Not sure about this.
I think Palpatine wanted the army bill to pass but Padme caused a problem.
Thus when Nute wanted Padme's head as a price to cooperate, he could kill two birds with one stone.
So the original plan was; army bill passes, the clone army is "found", Dooku makes some threat or attacks some republic world, the senate panics, war starts and he get extra powers.

I do not believe that he planned for the attacks on Padme to fail, that the dart would lead the Jedi anywhere, like finding Kamino or Geonosis and so on.

And his plans could have failed several times here.
If Jango is captured and decides to talk to save his own skin, then the Jedi would learn that Dooku hired him to be the template for the clone army and thus the army looks hugely suspicious. It still does, but this would be more so.
If the Jedi had used any brains on Geonosis, they might have been able to kill/capture Dooku and also destroy all TF ships and Nute would also be dead/captured.
With it's leader gone and one of the most powerful members eliminated, the rest of the seps might quickly surrender and the war is over before it starts.

[/QUOTE]

Again like I said before;
But to me, if the good guys are doomed to loose, that their defeat is totally inevitable and there is ZERO they can do about it.
That makes the story less interesting and less engaging.
If there is no hope for the good guys to pull of a win and they will loose no matter what.
Then it is just a curb-stomp and it makes it less engaging. I have no reason to care about the good guys because they will loose regardless. No matter how smart they are or how hard they try, they will loose.
So their struggle is pointless, they could just lay down and die.

And it also lessens the bad guy. If he has such a massive advantage that he will win no matter how clever his opponents are, then his victory is empty. He could never loose, the field was so stacked in his favor.

About Palpatine, he was faking weakness so he could possibly be able to use lighting to block Mace if Anakin does not stop him.
I do think he lost the duel against Mace fair and square.

As for Vader, Palpatine was sure that Vader would do anything he said so he counted on him to step in and block the strike. And then fight would start.

[/QUOTE]

If Anakin is killed or is beaten, Sidious has just wasted his time and now he has the problem of getting back to Coruscant and the senate.
To me, here is a difference in writing.
In RotJ, Palpatine has set a trap for the rebels but if they don't show, the DS2 gets completed and he wins anyway. It will just take longer.

In RotS, much of his plan hinges on events happening in one specific way and he has no way to know that they will.
Unless he has God-Level omniscience.

Did Vader look much for Luke after ESB?
Based on the films, RotJ seems to be about a month or so after ESB and now Vader has been ordered to oversee the DS2.
Once that was done, he wanted to look again.
It is possible that he did not have much hope of it working but it would be better than he and Palpatine works on Vader. Because then he knows it will be him or Luke.

[/QUOTE]

If Luke kills Palpatine and does not turn, Vader is now the Master and since Luke does not want to kill him, there is no need for a fight.
Vader can try to persuade Luke and if it fails, he can let Luke go and simply have him be captured or killed along the way.
Or offer to stop the slaughter of the rebels and letting them go in exchange for Luke's service.

In any way, this would likely be better than a fight that would only end with him dead or Luke dead.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Vader was going to take Luke to Palpatine via carbonite. They would then train him and convert him to the dark side. When Luke proves to be much further along in his training than first believed, that is what leads Vader to make his pitch. But even if Luke had agreed to his terms, Luke still needs to be trained enough to fight Palpatine. Remember, Palpatine says repeatedly that Luke needs to complete his training in order to serve him.

Or that Vader says that he must obey, not because he's afraid of Palpatine, but because he doesn't believe that he can turn back. That he thinks that he is unworthy and that he is too weak to make such a change. And he cannot bring himself to reject the dark power that he has.

That's why Palpatine has sold him a bill of goods that would allow Dooku to save face. He probably told him that the Separatist leaders would be eliminated, but that a peaceful agreement would be reached, allowing Dooku to be a hero and to reunite the two factions under one roof. And yes, Dooku believes that Anakin would listen to Palpatine since they're friends. We know that Anakin hesitates when he has Dooku beaten and only kills him because Patine tells him to do so.

Except that Palpatine can change the rules if he wishes. It's not an unbreakable rule.

Dooku is in many ways a reflection of Anakin. A Jedi who was a maverick, an outsider and an idealist who wanted to fix a broken system.

Indeed. Likewise, look at the Inquisitors. Outside of the Grand Inquisitor, none of them were powerful enough to be a threat. Vader could fight several of them at once despite his limitations. They only gave Kanan and Ezra trouble due to their limited training, whereas Ahsoka was fully trained and capable of taking them on with ease. And even after Kanan took out the Grand Inquisitor, Vader was able to smack him around without much effort. That's why I refer to Ventress and the Inquisitors, as they had potential, but were very limited. Luke being in the same category on the surface would be enough to buy Vader the time he needs to finish the boy's training and then figure out how to usurp Palpatine.

Dooku doesn't have to answer to anyone in that matter. Anakin would probably believe that he wasn't killed because Dooku wanted to hurt him knowing that he couldn't save Obi-wan. Nor would the people think too much about it.

The idea would be that Palpatine is kept as a hostage to ensure their escape and then "let go" when the Republic is lured into a conflict where they can rescue him. Then the war goes on. Or Dooku "chooses" to let him go on the pretext of possibly holding negotiations to end the war, but then the talks go nowhere and the war continues. This wasn't he first time such an endeavor was attempted, but only failed due to Obi-wan's interference. Dooku was able to escape then. A new plan was then forged to accomplish the same goal, but instead of luring them to Naboo where Palpatine would be taken, the Confederacy would attack the Republic and take Palpatine that way.

Palpatine's reflexes would have to be enough to stop Luke's attack. Either he still has his replacement Lightsaber, or uses the Force to fend off an attack.

Palpatine has two Lightsaber in TCW and ROTS. We've seen how he took on five Jedi Masters and how he took on Maul and Savage. He's strong enough hold his own and presumably, fast enough and resourceful enough to survive.

 

Good question! in Legends, there was a year, I think? and SOTE happened right in that time period, but in Canon, I´m not sure if there is a explicitly established time gap between Ep. V and VI. Still, seeing Luke´s progression in that time period, it could have been several months...

Right! In reality, I think that´s just my own reading, I just have a hard time imagining Vader wanting to rule without Luke at his side. He was the whole catalyst for Vader wanting to betray the Emperor... but with the Emperor gone, Vader´s options do increase exponentially, no doubt about it!

 

I have seen info about a year or thereabouts but to me, they don't fit the films.
At the end of ESB, Lando and Chewie are going to Tatooine and Luke said he would be joining them there.
Going there would take a day at most.
Then they have to scout Jabba's palace, if Han is there and make some sort of plan.

But that they would spend a year farting around while Han is there sounds very unlikely.
And if a year has passed, why hasn't Luke gone to Yoda to a) get answers and b) finish his training?

The only thing that implies a longer time span is that Luke is now further along his training.

In all, a few weeks, 1-2 months at most is what I get from the films.
A year or more, not seeing it.

[/QUOTE]

Well as far back as RotS, turned Anakin talked about getting rid off Palpatine and ruling the galaxy with Padme.
So I would think that Vader/Anakin has long had the desire to get rid off Palpatine and change himself from Mr Two to Mr One. And this is what all Sith would want, get rid of the Master and make themselves Master.

What I think he has lacked is opportunity.
He knows that with his suit, if he tried to attack Palpatine directly, Palpatine's lightning would screw him over quickly. Luke does not have that weakness.
He does have a desire to rule with someone, first it was Padme and then Luke.

This is speculation but say Anakin was never injured and got put in the suit but Padme still died.
So uninjured Vader, I think he would have tried to get rid off Palpatine sooner or later even with no Padme to rule with.

And as I said, if the choice is between a fight that would lead to either his death or Luke's at his hands as opposed to letting Luke try to kill Palpatine. Then the latter has more opportunity for Vader.
If Luke kills Palpatine and turns, great. If not, then Vader can try and convince Luke, by say offering to spare his friends. Or if that fails, since Luke does not want to fight his father, hold him prisoner.

Unless of course Vader had no choice and HAD to obey Palpatine, which is what he says in the film.
This would also fit with what Yoda said about "Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your fathers fate you will."
And explain why Luke would become Palpatine's servant after killing Vader, despite that he would hate and despise Palpatine and unlike his father, Palpatine has nothing Luke wants.

My theory, which is speculation, is that a Sith Master can to some extent "Command" someone that lets his hate and anger take over and use the Force to murder in hate. The Sith could tend use that to bend the other to his/her will. And the angrier the other gets and the more they try to fight using the Dark Side, the quicker they would get beaten.
The only way to beat this power is either if this person grows stronger in the Dark Side than the Master as then they could ignore such orders. Or that they et go of their hate and anger and turns back.
Which is what Vader did.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I think Palpatine stuck to his main plan for the most part. But he was not as smart as many think. After all, in Labyrinth of Evil, he told Grievous and Tyranus to invade Coruscant to prevent his discovery. Amusing.

 

Luke does need more training. If he feels that he isn't ready in a month, then he isn't ready. Only when he feels ready, does he execute his plan. He doesn't go back to Dagobah because he's not ready to face Yoda and the question of is Darth Vader his father or not. Once he has accomplished this task, does he feel that he is ready to know.

Except power. All Sith crave power and Luke would want the power of the dark side. Dooku wanted power and so did Anakin. So did Ben. And no, there is no power of control over Vader. Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep and Maul openly challenged him. Yoda's warning has to do with Luke underestimating how easily Palpatine can seduce a Jedi towards the dark side, which is what happened to Anakin. He underestimated his ability to manipulate him, even though Anakin says that he will not be Palpatine's paw, yet he becomes his pawn.

And they didn't discover him until he was ready for them to know, when he tells Anakin who he is and he then tells Mace. Mace only knows that Sidious had a base in the Works district and a passage that lead to 500 Republica. He knew nothing else.

 

That's pretty darn dumb. Palpatine The Senate would have a huge chance of being put into a position where he would be forced to defend himself and if someone saw that...uh oh lol.

 

Yes. It's amusing to see how clever Sidious is in other instances. But that? Lol.

Btw, I love the YouTube poop vids about Sidious calling himself the Senate. Good times.

 

I have to admit, the figure of 1 month between Ep. V and VI doesn´t quite add up for me. Not only that period of time implies the moment for Lando to infiltrate Jabba´s Palace and gain at least Bib Fortuna´s trust, but what I find really difficult to follow is Luke´s progression in that gap. He goes from being barely able to contend with Vader to overpower him. En TESB he shows great potential, but in ROTJ he is dealing with Jabba´s gang almost single handedly (with valuable help of course). Even 6 months would be too little time for such a progress, and sounds like it´s actually doable only because of Luke´s extraordinary abilities...

I do think Vader wanted to rule, but I get the feeling that he lost interest with Padme´s loss, and regain it with Luke. The Legends bit about him being afraid of Palpatine because of his lightning didn´t work all that well for me. After all, is he really that much more vulnerable to lightning? Yoda, Luke, Anakin were all completely incapacitated by less amount of lightning than Vader received in ROTJ (not to mention Mace Windu).

So I´ve always figured that perhaps it was the chance of actually ruling together with Luke, having him to support him and help him secure his rule (just like Palpatine had Vader) what got him in the whole betrayal frame of mind...

 

About the time between ESB and RotJ, yes Luke's progression is an issue but that Luke would just sit outside Jabba's palace and wait for a year and doing nothing, that don't work for me.
Also would it take long to get a position in Jabba's palace?
Leia as Boosk got in very quickly.
Given Jabba's tendency to kill those that displease him, I would figure that the staff turnaround is quite high.
And getting work as a guard, how hard would that be?
That Lando could get in after 2-3 weeks I don't see as impossible.

About Vader, his suit makes him much more vulnerable to lightning in that it will screw up the systems that keeps him alive. So he might be able to take some hits but if those cause his suit to malfunction, he will die.
So that is why he needs Luke, someone that can kill the Emperor directly.
I think, given Palpatine story about Plaug's apprentice killing him in his sleep, I would guess that Palpatine does not let Vader anywhere near him when he is asleep.

And he does want to rule, yes he would prefer it to be with someone that is close to him.
But again, no suit Anakin I very much see trying to off Palpatine sooner rather than later, even with no Padme or Luke. He wanted power and he was not a patient man.
And this is the Sith MO, the apprentice will always try to kill the Master and become the Master instead.
Why would Vader be any different?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No, absolutely, Luke just waiting makes no sense... but perhaps TESB Luke wasn´t ready to deal with all of Jabba´s guards? Patience is a big theme in Star Wars, after all. Without being a big SOTE fan, it did provide a reasonable explanation for all of this: there was a lot going on in that time, and not even Boba Fett managed to get directly to Jabba. Of course, since there is no movie evidence of this, one could also say "Boba went directly to Tatooine and was in Jabba´s palace the next day after Bespin", but it is something (possibly purposely) left ambiguous... by the way, my example is an exaggeration, obviously, but we don´t have much references in terms to time invested in space travel!

About Vader, he is vulnerable indeed to lightning, but for me the only difference is that the damage he gets is more lasting. I think to remember in Legends that Luke himself spending a few days in bacta after ROTJ (again, not in the movie, but makes perfect sense) because of the damage he got from Palpatine´s lightning. Thing is, the Emperor could basically disarm and overwhelm almost everyone with his lightning... and worse yet, they are dealing with a man that can literally see a trap, treason, etc, before it happens to him. That makes him a veeery complicated foe.

I imagine that only in his huge potential, Luke (after some training in the dark side) could match that power, and give Vader an opening...

 

He's not doing nothing. He's training. That takes time and realizing that he wasn't ready to face Vader would definitely instill a sense of patience. Han is not valuable enough to send a full strike team to rescue him. Luke needs to be able to do this with only three experienced soldiers and two droids. He needs to be sure of himself and his abilities. Think about "The Matrix" films again. Neo wasn't ready to hear the full truth of what he was until he was ready to know. Luke isn't ready to be staging a rescue if he goes in before he is ready. He has to not only strengthen himself, he has to build a Lightsaber and that also takes time. Not only to find the parts and a suitable kaibur crystal, but to be able to assemble it without it shortening out and blowing up his hand when he ignites it.

Depending on if he had to work his way up to being in the audience chamber and not being stuck in the hangar with the sail barge.

She was bringing Chewbacca to Jabba. Getting in that way was easy. We don't know how long it took to get the Boosch armor, especially since SOTE is out of continuity now.

It's not just that, but that it would take two people to take on Palpatine directly. Maul and Savage couldn't beat him in a straight up fight and the former had cybernetic legs. Both were powerful enough to challenge a Jedi, but not Palpatine. Hence why they lost to him. Vader needs Luke not because of his suit's systems, but because of his raw power. We know that Luke has the same potential as Anakin and we've seen what Luke could do at the end of his life. That's why he needs Luke. On his own, before his injuries, yes Anakin could take Palpatine. He had that potential. Now, he needs someone of equal potential which is why he had to wait for twenty years.