PT What were Palpatine's backup plans?

I thought it was offically six months between ep5 & 6.

 

In Legends it was 8 months (Tatooine months being a bit longer than galactic months, so 6 Tatooine months equalling 8 galactic months).

It's not clear how long it was in the newcanon.

From the novel Moving Target, we know Luke and Leia haven't gone straight to Tatooine right after Lando has - but have remained with the fleet, waiting for word from Lando. Leia even goes on a mission, to decoy the Empire's attention away from Sullust.

 

About space travel, the SW films makes it quite clear that travel is VERY fast.
The MF goes from Tatooine to Alderaan in what, half an hour?
We see them jump and then a cut to Luke practicing.
Han walks in and says he lost the ISD's and then the scene goes on and and it ends with Han saying that they are approaching Alderaan.
So for Bobba to get to Tatooine, we are talking hours, a day at most.
Same with Lando and Chewie.

As you said, none of the SotE stuff is even hinted at IN the films.
And given the total lack of events that might have delayed them and how ESB ended, I think the idea was to have RotJ take place very soon after ESB.
Not as soon as TLJ after TFA but still quite close.

If Luke feels he needs more training then simple, GO BACK TO YODA!
There he can get more training and also get the answer to a very big question, is Vader his father?
For Luke to not do this and spend many months training himself makes no sense.
Esp the Vader bit would be a very big question that he would be wrestling with.
If it is true, what can he do now? Can he really fight and kill his father?
And given the short travel times, Luke can get to Yoda in matter of hours.
And how much time did he spend there in ESB, days or weeks, a month?

[/QUOTE]

Again, Vader's suit would likely be totally messed up with Palpatine's lightning and would kill him in fairly short order. And this is what happens.

How much Palpatine sees is up for debate.
Did he see the destruction of the first DS?
Could be see the hidden rebel base?
Did he foresee Padme escaping in TPM?
Did he foresee Maul's death?

We know he did NOT foresee Luke coming to Endor and was a bit surprised that he was there and he didn't sense it.
Likewise he did not foresee Vader turning back.

I am sticking to the films here and not books etc.
And I do not really want to make Palpatine into this Force-God that foresee EVERYTHING and can sense any trap and knows what happens everywhere.
To me, this is a no-limits fallacy.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Makes sense! Well, about Luke, I imagine that he not being mature enough to go back to the teacher that said to him "don´t leave" and that he openly ignored (causing all his later problems) could have something to do with it. Luke doesn´t even know if Yoda will take him back and finish his training. He didn´t even have a lightsaber to train with (he will probably wants that, seeing that his last duel cost him a hand). And above all, Han is still in danger, and his friends in motion to rescue him. Does he really want this possibly hindering his training a second time around? There are reasons for him not to go to Dagobah, literally, the next day, I reckon...

Of course, but it´s not like Palpatine was watching the movie with us, haha. In an attempt to show his foreseeing ability in a somewhat "realistic" way, I imagine he didn´t get every bit of information from every corner of the galaxy, just like we ourselves don´t get to see everything happening in the whole galaxy to every single being during the movie. Now, if it´s something like "my apprentice has been planning to kill me for several months now, I aware of this for that long, and now he is about to make his move", this could be something high in the Emperor´s priorities. After all, if a Jedi gets a heads up every time he/she is being shot at, surely Palpatine gets at the very least the same, and can focus further on that situation.

Him not sensing Luke, it´s very interesting indeed. Makes clear, even for the Emperor I think, that Vader didn´t felt him through the dark side...

 

Palpatine clearly can't foresee everything. He didn't foresee Maul returning. But when he does have a vision of something occurring, I get the impression it always comes true, or at least mostly comes true. Until the throne room.

e: I also don't think his visions involve every specific detail. In AOTC, he knows that if he sends Jango Fett after Padme and assigns Obi-Wan to investigate, it will lead Obi-Wan to Kamino to discover the clones and then to Geonosis to discover the Separatist Droid Army, which will kick-start the war. But he doesn't necessarily know exactly how it's going to happen. He doesn't know Jango will use a Kamino saberdart for a guaranteed instant kill from long range, he doesn't know Obi-Wan will have a contact who will be able to identify that saberdart, etc. But he knows that if he sets Obi-Wan Kenobi on the trail of Jango Fett, Obi-Wan will be resourceful enough to successfully follow that trail to both its sources.

Those are just my feelings, though.

 

Precisely and because of that it matters who the master deal-maker is.

Because as The Dark Lord of the Sith it's up to Sidious to say what absolute is what. That's the deal.

So when he says there is a Rule of Two it's whatever two he wants (himself and whoever else) when he wants it.

So he tells Dooku that he wants to bring Anakin in on there side but doesn't tell him "Oh by the way he isn't just going to join us as an associate but he's going to be my new apprentice taking your place after he kills you."

I mean what is Dooku going to do about any of this? Nothing. He has no power to defeat Sidious.

 

And it's important to keep in mind that pretty much every Sith Lord who's ever lived thought they were the biggest, baddest thing around and couldn't be outsmarted or beaten. You can't become a Sith in the first place without that sort of arrogance and lack of self-awareness. Dooku was no different.

So he's not thinking, "Oh God, my master's bringing another apprentice into the group, I'd better start worrying." He's thinking, "Well, obviously my master can't get rid of me any time soon, and if Skywalker ever challenges me in the future, I'll certainly be able to overcome him. In the meantime, Skywalker will be a great help to us."

 

And those Sith Lords would have centuries of history, where other sith lords thought like that and all of them realized too late that they were wrong.
So they can look back see 50 sith lords who all thought they could not be beaten and yet all of them were.
Talk about not learning from history.

Backstabbing is the way of the sith, Palpatine killed his master while his master was asleep.
There is no loyalty, no trust, there is only power.

As for Dooku, his role was to lead the seps, once they are defeated and Palpatine has secured his power, then his role is played out. His usefulness is at an end.

But how does this work?
Does he get his plans through visions?
That he just sits and suddenly a vision comes to him and tells him what to do?
"Send Jango to kill Padme and assign Obi-Wan to the case and then this, this and this will happen."
Or does he make a plan and then looks into the future to see if it would work?
"Hmm I will do this." Looks into the future..."No that won't work, scratch that."

To me, either alternative makes him less clever and just having a massive advantage.

The plan he had in TPM makes sense if he did NOT plan for Padme to escape.
That he orchestrated the blockade and later the invasion and the signed treaty, all in an attempt to make Valorum look weak and get sympathy for himself and so he could take Valorum's place.
But when Padme escaped, Palpatine had to improvise and make the best of the situation.

But is he planned for Obi-Wan to find Kamino and then Geonosis, then that plan is so full of ways that could go wrong that either he thinks out all the details and is sure that all will happen as he wants it.
Or he has gotten a detailed vision and he acts accordingly.
Neither alternative makes much sense to me.

I think that he did NOT have this insanely detailed plan, instead he wanted the bill to pass and when Padme got in the way, he wanted her dead. And that would suit the TF as well.
The rest is him thinking on his feet and adapting his plans.

I do think he gets some info through visions but they tend to be either more general or smaller bits.
Like that he can see that the Jedi will not be able to see or sense the creation of the clone army.
Or that the Jedi will order Anakin to spy on him and so he uses that.

As I said before, when Palpatine is brought up from Coruscant, Dooku could blow up his ship.
Palpatine dead and Dooku is now the Master.
Not ideal but a better option than foolishly trusting Palpatine.

And with the rule of two, Dooku would know that if another is brought along and could become a sith, then three sith is one too many and one must die.
So either him, Anakin or Palpatine.
Dooku has no relationship with Anakin so little hope of getting him on his side.
And if he thinks he can't beat Palpatine, then he knows it would come down to him or Anakin.

And if he is told to fight Anakin then for him NOT to be concerned makes him very stupid.
And if he believes Palpatine when he says that he will stop Anakin from killing him if Dooku looses, that is even more stupid.

Lastly, Vader in RotJ has lived through this exact thing so he would know very well how this will play out.
It will be between him and Luke and one will die.

@Ithorians

But Luke did go back to Yoda, to complete his training.
And also to get answers.
Just getting the answer to the question would take Luke less than a day.

And if he is worried that he won't be able to help Han without more training, then go to Yoda.
I don't see Luke as being so full of pride that he won't humble himself and go back for help.
Same with the lightsaber, if he feels he needs a new one and doesn't know how, talk to Yoda.

And if he thinks Han is in danger, then how does it makes sense to sit and wait for months and not do anything?

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Luke could have been on that hospital ship for a month. After that, he may not have been ready to go back to see Yoda yet. Other things may have come up. It probably took some time for Lando to get all his intel gathered and sent back to Luke and the rest.

 

@Samuel Vimes Well, going just by the movies, we can gather that: Luke ends up TESB with a mission (going back for Han) and a huge question about Vader being his father. Since he doesn´t go to Yoda until his mission has been accomplished, one can imagine that the mission was not as straight forward as just going to Jabba´s Palace, aaand that it took long enough and required enough from his abilities to hone them to the point where he can contend with a Sith Lord as powerful as Vader and not nearly look like a neophyte.

Since he made his own lightsaber without really having a way of knowing how to do it, it probably implied a considerable amount of research and testing too (for Vader, it´s proof of his skills being complete, so it´s no easy task).

Could Luke just go to dagobah to get all these answers, and in a matter of days get to the level (not only of power or abilities, but maturity) we see him in ROTJ? I think there is such a big change with Luke between Ep. V and VI, that there´s a need to explain what happened in that time period. Legends did it with SOTE; I imagine, at one point, Canon will do it too...

 

First, how long did Luke train with Yoda in ESB?
A few weeks, 1-2 months at most and he advanced quite a lot in that short time.

Second, that Luke went to save Han first and NOT to complete his training and get answers to a very vital question implies that the Han rescue would happen pretty soon and would not take long.
IF he thought that they have to wait 3 months then why would not use that time to go to Yoda?

Third, the plan is not that hard. Have Lando infiltrate the place, this need to not take long. Simply have him ask to work there as a guard. Jabba did not look like he had extensive security.
Then make a plan and execute it, droids first, then Leia and finally Luke.
In all, I could see this taking maybe a month.
And after that, Luke goes to Yoda.

Would Leia be content with sitting on her behind for six months while Luke is getting ready?
Would Chewie?

Why would this take so long?
Luke got pretty mauled by that wampa and nearly froze to death.
And he was up and about after what, 2-3 days?

The hand had been placed there and he could feel it and move the fingers.
More time to fully master it sure, but a whole month?

Also, Luke said he would meet them on the rendezvous spot on Tatooine, nothing about him waiting for Lando's signal.
The implication was that he would join them there as soon as he was fully recovered and it sounded like he knew about how long that would be.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The thing is, this is a not quite defined territory, so I´m not directly disagreeing. Could Lando get into Jabba´s Palace the next day, and Luke put together a half constructed lightsaber from Obi Wan´s hut while Leia got her Boussh disguise, and be literally saving Han 3 days after Bespin? sure, it´s not impossible, and nothing in the movie goes directly against that...

Except Luke´s abilities. That´s what doesn´t work for me. And my point is, since we are talking entirely in what ifs, a "maybe Luke had to do everything that he had to do in SOTE (or something else), and that´s why he didn´t go directly to Yoda (or Jabba)" also works. That´s why they wrote that story, anyway. The difference is, this way, Luke has room to grow the way he did between the two movies...

 

It's entirely possible Luke didn't intend the rescue mission to take long but then it did. If "go time" could be anytime over six months or a year, then Luke's not so much wasting time as waiting for the optimal time to strike. There is even the possibility that Luke and company had to wait out an Imperial presence on Tatooine that's waiting for them.

Basically waiting isn't the same thing as

It's being content to strike when opportunity presents itself.

My guess is Lando still would need a few weeks to learn the ins and outs of Jabba's Palace after getting the job for them to put together a plan. As the inside man Lando would need time to see the Rancor in action and go out to the Sarlacc for at least one execution - more is even better. Even if those things are public knowledge, hearing about it is different from being there. And if Lando could go out for more than Sarlacc execution, then he can get an idea what the repeated procedures are. I could see that taking a few months. Lando might even go on practice runs at the Sarlac with other gaurds.

Good question about how extensive a background check is needed in Jabba's palace. My guess is you'd need to do something that proves you can manage the job and trust worth enough to have it. R2 and 3PO get around that because it seems no one ever expects droids to have ulterior motives in Star Wars.

The truth is we simply don't get enough info on screen to know how much time passes between Empire and Jedi. We can see that all the characters are noticeably older in Return of the Jedi. Because of that it seems six months to a year is considered the minimum passage of time. Is that even official anymore?

The passage of time in Star Wars is very open to interpretation.

 

Yeah, I can´t make it work in my head with such a small period of time. In canon politics, if a Legends content isn´t directly contradicted by a canon one, it´s status is pretty much open, right? Maybe Shadows of the Empire is still working as a reference for this time period.

 

First, they have no idea what Jabba will do to Han once he gets him
Thaw him out and execute him, slowly torture him to death etc.
So in that regard, there is a bit of urgency.

Second, what "optimal time"?
As soon as Lando is in place and the droids are too, they can go.

Third, if Lando needs time to scout the place and go out the the pit a few times, I'll get back to this later.
Then good, have him do that and Luke could go to Yoda.
If Lando needs 2-3 months to scout the place then use that time and train with Yoda.
Not making use of Yoda and given the big question Luke has, makes little sense.

Third, did Luke plan to kill the Rancor?
I did not get that impression from the film.
He looked a bit scared when it came out and he didn't seem to have any kind of plan to kill it.
The button he used seemed something he just saw and took advantage of.
And once he killed it, he looked quite relieved.
So this did not seemed planned.

Practice runs at the Sarlac pit, where do you get that idea?
Jabba tends to use the Rancor it seems and only did not as it was now dead.
He had used the Sarlac pit before one would assume, but how often does he do that?
Once in a blue moon, fairly often? We have no idea.

Did Luke plan for Leia to get caught?
Seems risky, Jabba could feed her to the Rancor and Han as well.

Did Luke "plan" for Jabba to not make a bargain?
He sent the droids to send a message and to get them inside.
But say Jabba had listened and made some deal, what then?

I think, that Luke made the offer, probably suspecting that Jabba would not listen but if he did, then he would pursue that.
Leia?
As I said, I doubt the plan was for her to get caught.
If she had managed to get Solo out, then Lando might be able to slip away but the droids and Chewie are a bit more tricky.

Did Luke plan to kill the Rancor and then be sent to the sarlac pit?
Again this seems odd, I have already mentioned the rancor and how that did not seem planned.
Maybe the plan was just to piss Jabba off so that he would use the pit.
And did Luke KNOW that R2 would get put on the barge?
How?

In closing, ESB ends with Lando and Chewie going to Tatooine and Luke saying he would join them there.
And in the next film, they are there. Nothing much implies a long passage of time.
1-2 months at most.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

In Legends Lando had to earn Jabba's trust by competing in his vehicle demolition death matches, which is pretty hardcore.

 

Regarding this thread, the only problem Palpatine could have had in achieving his goal of galactic domination would have been Anakin dying on the Invisible Hand in ROTS. He planned TPM and AOTC perfectly.

 

But he was still very lacking as he came to realize by the time the fight was over.

Because he was not ready to go back to Yoda and believed that he just needed to practice, practice, practice. He doesn't need Yoda for that.

Luke still has to train in order to rescue him. He still has to build a Lightsaber which takes time. And he has to wait for reports from Lando, which may have been few and far between. Threepio even believes that Lando hasn't made contact with Luke in a long time. Security was pretty tight based on that.

They were since that's what happened.

Last time Luke made a plan in haste, he almost got them killed. Better to wait and plan carefully.

Luke's afraid of the answer. That's why he doesn't go, because he wants to know, but he doesn't. He's avoiding Yoda.

Lucas indicated that Luke planned on everything except for the Rancor. So he knew that Jabba would not go for his attempts at peaceful negotiations and had always planned on aggressive negotiations. Leia just took an opportunity to try and rescue Han on her own, and got caught. She might have almost blown Luke's plan by doing this.

Remember, the Sith took a thousand years to plan their revenge. Luke can take six months to a year to plan a rescue mission.

 

No, as I posted before Palpatine could have been thwarted at any of several points throughout the films if people had simply stuck to their principles and resisted the temptations he provided them. It's a classic morality tale.

Unfortunately, for some reason, many people seem to have an attachment to an idea of an Invincible Palpatine whose rise was inevitable, even though this is completely at odds with the series' core themes about choice in destiny.

 

How do we explain that fact Leia getting captured perfectly puts her in position to kill Jabba the Hutt?

The fact R2-D2 is carrying a lightsaber seems to indicate - yes. My guess is Luke would KNOW because Lando scouted out the Sarlacc and how things run there.

It's not to far fetched to think the guards at Jabba's palace have protocol and procedure for executions. Modern prison executions do pre-work and practice runs before actual executions. Seems plausible that they would do the same thing at Jabba's Palace.

'


Lando can be reporting back to Luke while this is going on. Then Luke can instruct Lando to find out other things. It's not Lando all on his own. What are the big questions Luke has for Yoda? "Is Darth Vader my dad?" At the end of Empire it's pretty clear Luke knows Darth Vader is telling him the truth.

It's not to far fetched to think the guards at Jabba's palace have protocol and procedure for executions. Modern prison executions do pre-work and practice runs before actual executions. Seems plausible that they would do the same thing at Jabba's Palace.

The urgency means Luke needs to stick around while they plan. Once Lando gets into the Palace and they know Han is a wall decoration, then they know they have time. But if the situation changes, Luke is close enough that he can spring into action if need be.

Sam I think it makes a lot of sense if Luke doesn't want to see Yoda after he lied to him.

That is a fantastic point darth-sinsister!!!

Planning to kill a Rancor with no weapons and then actually being the moment and having to kill a Rancor with no weapons two different things. Who wouldn't looked relieved after that?

Luke's plan at Jabba's Palace is quite convoluted. In that regard it has a lot in common with the plans and machinations of Palpatine.

 

I find it's somehow tied into this idea that nothing really happens in the PT because we know how it's all going to turn out.

That attitude is very particular with many people to the prequels for some reason yet they don't seem to hold it against the OT (which they've seen many times) or LOTR or Harry Potter (from books) or any number of movie series or adapted works.

It's like since they know the outcome the details don't matter.

The Mustafar duel is completely thrilling to me regardless that I know each time how it's going to end which is no different than the end of ANH. Luke is going to make the shot yet the same person will thrill to the latter but no be invested in the former.

 

More luck than anything. Yes, I know about luck and the GFFA. Anyway, Luke could have easily fought his way into Jabba's lounge or whatever the room was called, and either demanded Jabba to surrender or kill him if the Hutt tried to attack Luke. As it so happens, Leia decides to take advantage of the confusion and extract some payback for Jabba's earlier actions.

Well, Luke knows, but he wants confirmation. He doesn't trust his feelings and he wants to know why he was lied to. But as I've noted, if it was really pressing for Luke, he would have gone back instead of rescuing Han. In fact, he avoids asking Yoda right off the bat and states that he is ready to finish his training. He only asks when he realizes that Yoda's about to shove off this mortal coil and decides that it is now or never.

Do note that it is only Threepio who is surprised that Han is still frozen. It is unclear if Luke knew or not. Just as we know that Threepio was in the dark about Luke's Lightsaber being in Artoo and that the message he was carrying was different from what he himself was lead to think it was.

 

It does work out perfectly that Luke is such an imminent threat he draws out all of Jabba's guards which leaves Jabba completely unprotected. Then Leia is able to not only kill Jabba but also disable the Sail Barge, throwing everyone inside into complete disarray. Not only do they kill Jabba, they take out some all the villains in his company without a single casualty for the good guys.

 

Either, Luke has read the script.
Or he planned for the first slave to please and then displease Jabba and thus he would toss her to the Rancor. And he planned that Leia would be captured and then take her place, and then be able to strangle Jabba without any of his people trying to stop her.

Or he did not plan for this but he was able to work with what he had.

Jabba's palace is hardly a modern prison with protocols and such.
Take Jabba, he threw his slave down to the Rancor because she displeased him.
When a translator droid said something he did not like, he destroyed it.
Jabba is clearly shown as quite impulsive and can decide to kill people just like that.

Given the short travels times in SW, Luke could go from Dagobah to Tatooine in less than an hour, or there about.

Except it makes no sense at all for Luke to PLAN to kill the Rancor and then not have any kind of plan of how to do that.
He could have brought a weapon along, not the lightsaber, some other weapon.
He was not searched as he walked in, neither was Leia.

So either Luke is making a moronic plan or he did not intend to fall in with the rancor and he had to deal with it when it happened.

[/QUOTE]

If you mean that Luke planned for each and every thing that happened. That the first slave would displease Jabba, that Leia would get caught, not killed or thrown in jail, that he could somehow kill the Rancor without any weapon or plan to do so.
Then yes it does have a lot in common with Palpatine's plans in the PT.
Chief among them is that they only make sense if you assume that Luke, like Palpatine, has read the script.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Basically Palpatine is like Satan, he can't steal your soul but he can certainly convince you to sell it. It doesn't take much to lay out a temptation and do the two path calculation on acceptance or not. What made Palpatine powerful beyond his peerless abilities in the Dark Side of the Force, was his understanding of human nature, and human emotions.He knew where the levers of power were in the mundane world and where there weren't he put in new ones. He knew that the lynch pin in the fall of the Jedi was the Jedi complacency and arrogance, and he manipulated everything based on the fact that the Jedi would walk straight into the hang mans noose because they were not only behind in the game, but the Jedi hadn't lost in so long that they had victory fever.

Palpatine wasn't invincible what felled him was the same thing that fell the Jedi, arrogance. But what made him impossible to beat was that he commanded all aspects of his world, understood human nature and could peer into the future.