PT What would have happened had Anakin let Mace kill Palpatine?

Anakin would go somewhere were the Jedi or anyone else can't find them, I don't see that happening on Naboo. Even if Anakin had allowed Mace to kill Palpatine, the Jedi Council had burned its bridges with Anakin, the trust had been destroyed and I couldn't see it ever coming back.

It's a situation that would affect Obi-Wan and his place within the Jedi order, we never really see his opinion on the distrust that Yoda and Mace have shown to Anakin other than he disagrees with it. We are shown Obi-Wan is extremely uneasy at the way the Council uses him to ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine, neither would it seem that he was wholly in agreement that Anakin should join the Council and not be promoted to Master.

 

Anakin would be seen as the chosen one, who confirmed the prophesy by fulfilling it. He would be allowed to do whatever he wants. He could stay in the order, or leave. He wouldn't have to go into hiding!?

 

It was Anakin's own "Dark Side Beckons" moment. And he succumbed.

 

The relationship between the Jedi and Anakin had broken down, Mace made it clear, he didn't trust Anakin. Anakin doesn't ever seem like the one to allow a betrayal go easily... In my opinion I believe Anakin's days as a Jedi were always numbered when the Jedi refused to make him a master. The Jedi had made it so easy for Palpatine to turn Anakin against the Jedi, would Yoda try to make Anakin stay when his heart was already gone and with Padme?

 

They partially pushed him closer to Palpatine, I would agree with that, but I don't think Anakin or the Jedi had burned their bridges until Mace is actually dead.

Mace - "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust."

The irony being that at the end the formerly mistrustful Mace didn't see Anakin's betrayal coming.

 

But he did tell him the truth and Mace's own distrust overshadowed what the Force should've told him was the truth.

 

Perhaps, but he did believe Anakin, afterall - "Then our greatest fears have been realised."

I am of the opinion Mace should have trusted Anakin enough to bring him along however.
Trusting Anakin now was arguably too little, too late.

I think Palpatine's plan would have been at the very least delayed if he was confronted in front of Anakin, and it would buy the Jedi some time.

 

I understand your sentiment, the Jedi had really become blind by the Republic's end.

But I think when Anakin reports to Mace the veil is lifted, even if Palpatine was still technically playing them. The Jedi now know what we know, yet the Senate and the Republic are still totally in a shroud.

Mace just acted rashly on the information and Imo eventually made an emotion-based decision to kill Palpatine in the heat of the moment.

I can still sympathise with Mace, I mean he has just found out everything for about a decade (perhaps even centuries) was basically for nothing because Palpatine had been leading them on a wild goose chase from the beginning. Palpatine is too deeply entrenched in the Republic, it would be hard to know what to do.

 

When Mace is colliding with Sidious, he is asking...pleading with Anakin to help him. His trust of Anakin is what destroys him. "Help me!! You are the chosen one!!"

All of Anakin's motivations prior to that point of no return, when he does betray mace, are to save his Padme.

Why does Anakin want to become a Jedi master? So he can access the holocron chamber of the jedi library, and find out how to prevent Padme from dying?

That's why he loses his cool when he's granted a seat on the council, but not the rank of master. He wants the rank, not the seat.

If Anakin helps Mace destroy Palpatine, all that goes away. Padme will live. The terrible visions stop. Anakin's vision is of Padme at Polis Massa dying in childbirth at Obi-Wan's side. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that are cause by Anakin's decision to help Palpatine and not Mace.

Palpatine puts the idea in his head that he can prevent the future by working with him, but working with him is what causes that future.

 

@HevyDevy
Palpatine was manipulating everyone, the Jedi, the senate, the Trade Federation, the Separatists, Dooku, everybody. Yoda's Jedi had become bogged down with hypocrisy, Anakin may not have seen it clearly but when it came to defending Palpatine or allowing Mace to kill Anakin chose to save Padme.

Palpatine didn't only turn Anakin, Yoda sowed some of the seeds that began to turn Anakin against the Jedi when he advised him to let Padme die in Anakin's eyes. Of course Yoda didn't know the whole truth, he didn't know that they were married and Padme was expecting Anakin's child. But Yoda was adamant and it became another straw that threatened to break the horses back, finally breaking with Anakin sat in the council chamber and believing that the Jedi had turned against him and he could no longer follow that path.

The Anakin that burst into the supreme chancellor's office may not even consider himself to be a Jedi anymore, of course he still held his beliefs in wrong and right and knew he'd done wrong helping Palpatine to kill Mace. So even if he hadn't intervened and stood there as Mace brought his blade down on Palpatine and the Jedi had taken him back, I just can't see Anakin wanting to be a Jedi anymore.

 

Anakin would’ve left, plain and simple. The ROTS novelization made it clear from Obi-Wan’s POV that the Jedi basically shot any hope of keeping Anakin by asking him to spy on a man who he considered his foster-father. Mace kills Palpatine, Anakin decides, “Y’know what, **** this. I’m out.” He leaves the Order and goes with Padmé to Naboo to raise their child.

Django is right in that the Anakin we see running into the office isn’t Anakin ‘The Jedi’, but just a man terrified of the Jedi killing the last hope he has to save his wife. He doesn’t care for them anymore — far as he’s concerned, they’re just pawns, puppets to the bidding of a corrupt senate; they aren’t the heroes of peace and justice as he once thought them as.

Maybe Obi-Wan would be allowed to pay his old friend a visit every now and then, but that would be the best case scenario. Either way, Anakin was done with the Jedi Order.

 

The Jedi were later justified in wanting a spy in Palpatine's inner circle. I don't see how an un-fallen Anakin could hold that against them after the truth about the Chancellor is made known. Anakin is a smart kid, and understanding.

Anakin would have quickly come to realize (after all is said and done, after his transformation) that it was Palpatine who tricked him, used him, betrayed him, and enslaved him, and not the Jedi.

 

I think there are a couple of scenarios.

So Mace strikes down Palpatine, just outright executes him

1) Anakin has earned Mace's trust and becomes a good and powerful Jedi with the source of corruption gone. The Jedi go back to being Jedi, the war ends. But eventually the Darkness will rise again as it always does. Maybe it takes years or decades, but slowly it rises. At the same time, this ending doesn't deal with the fact that the republic was rotting from the inside already. Eventually Anakin rises to lead the Council after a lifetime of meditation he realizes that the Republic serves no one and convinces the Jedi that they need to reform the republic. 10,000 well rested Jedi decend to the Senate.

2) Anakin witnesses the death of Palpatine and instantly realizes that his chance to save his wife are gone, and that the Jedi are big massive hypocrites. In his rage and anger he slaughters Mace. Now instead of a Darth Vader consumed with thoughts of power, he is now fueled by an intense hatred of all the Jedi. He goes before the Senate with proof that Mace murdered the good and kind Palpatine, and the Senate votes to outlaw the Jedi and issue a senate arrest order for all Jedi. Order 66 happens anyways. Padme tries to reason with Anakin but he's full on darkside and kills her. Consumed with Grief and Rage he takes on Obi-Wan and kills him and uses that as proof that the Jedi are evil. Eventually the Senate asks Anakin to head up a new reformed Jedi Order and he creates his own version of the Inquisitors. Then those inquisitors descend on the Senate.

3) Anakin in disgust throws down his light saber and quits the Jedi Order and he and Padme go off to raise their kids, but at the back of his mind Anakin knows that he needs the power to save the one that he loves and it eats at him. With good intentions he goes to the Jedi Council and asks for access to the forbidden teachings as a friend but is refused. Resentful Anakin goes on his own quest for knowledge. His thirst for knowledge consumes him and he becomes extremely powerful and corrupt. Maybe something happens to Padme or she just see's what he's becoming and leaves with the kids. Anakin becomes resentful of the Jedi and plots his revenge.

 

Anakin would not have fallen since there would be no one to pull him there any longer. He would almost certainly leave the Jedi Order though.

 

I disagree, he was already on the course of falling, he had a distrust of the Jedi and Palpatine had already planted the seed about needing power to save his wife. If he walked away from the Jedi and their ability to monitor and moderate him, I think he would eventually fallen, but been a far more powerful darkside user. The thought of his wife dying due to lack of power would have driven him there.

 

Yes, but his wife would not have died in childbirth. He will still be afraid of her dying though I bet.

 

This is a really interesting thought. A lot of good theories here.

Anakin turning on Mace was the culmination of Sheev's plan. All the manipulation and truth-circumvention had end in a blatant do-or-die moment. Simply put, if Anakin allows (or helps) Mace to kill Palpatine, he does not turn to the darkside. Padme lives, the Clone Wars end, and Anakin is promoted to Master for dissolving the Sith. I do believe he may have had second thoughts about the events in the moments afterward, but Windu would've reassured him that Palpatine was indeed too powerful and had deceived not only the Jedi, but the galaxy at large. After being promoted to Master, his faith in the council would be restored his visions that had been haunting him for the past few years would have gone away.

The Jedi more than likely would've temporarily taken control of the senate, as they would oversee the latter on the process of selecting a new chancellor. As has been said earlier, Windu would've (correctly) used the argument that he attempted to take Palpatine in peacefully, but he refused and violently rebelled against the Jedi. The fact that Paltpatine refused arrest makes (in my opinion) Windu's actions justified, even for a Jedi. There would've been some dissent among some systems, but Padme and Organa would've sided with Windu, and, due to their influence, would've convinced the majority of systems to take their lead.

The darkside would probably rear its ugly head again in the future, but it would have been staved for quite sometime.

 

I fancy the idea of the Republic becoming a Jedi-led militarized entity for quite a while after the death of Palpatine. Thats the only way i see that could ensure a "peaceful transition".

 

I too believe that was the plan as shown in the film. The Jedi Council do plan on taking control of the Republic (essentially a coup) and ruling through their control of the Grand Army. A Jedi junta would essentially rule the Republic whilst they ensure the "peaceful transition" in the fullness of time. How long that takes, well, we shall see. The Council will decide.

The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition.

To a dark line of thoughts this will take us. Great care we must take.

This was the plan. Master Windu would have been a pivotal figure in the Jedi led Republic. The Jedi Council essentially would have governed, and perhaps handed over at some point to a newly elected Chancellor. A purge of the corrupt would probably happen, and the Jedi would keep a far closer eye on affairs.

"Citizens of the Republic, henceforth until further notice, in the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic and the Force, the Jedi Council hereby assumes control of the Senate.

With the guidance of the Force, the Jedi Council will govern the galaxy for all its citizens, with favour to none. The corrupt will be swept from the Senate, and the villainous hunted down and defeated. The mistakes of the past, the evil that has hidden in plain sight for so long, the rot of the bureaucrats will be cleansed. To the planets of the Confederacy, we say join us once more. Today marks the end of the bureacrats, the end of corruption, the end of disorder.

The Senate will be temporarily dissolved and in due course, reinstated after a transition. We ask all citizens to continue with their day to day lives. Jedi Knights will ensure peace and order are maintained across all regions of our great galaxy. Governors will be appointed who will not yield until you are safe.

We will usher in a new era for the galaxy. An era of freedom and equality for all systems. The criminals and the gangsters will no longer be able to hide. The apathy of the past will be done away with.

Under our enlightened leadership, the Grand Army will enforce the law and maintain the peace. All planets shall receive our protection and people's be free from corruption and villainy.

Today marks the End of the Old Republic. Today marks the beginning of Liberty. Today we celebrate the start of something greater. Today the Republic is reorganised into a greater Galactic Alliance. For a safe...and secure...society!

Today we celebrate...our Independence Day!"

- Inaugural speech given by Jedi Council Representative Master Windu after the removal/execution of the last Chancellor of the Old Republic.

Master Yoda becomes the Grand Master of the Galactic Alliance / Second Republic.

 

I don't think it was a plan as much as it was a what-if.
The context here is that they are debating what will happen once the war is over.
If Palpatine does not give up his extra powers and steps down, what will the Jedi do then?

1) Do nothing and allow Palpatine to become a dictator.
I would think this would violate their oaths, their duty is the republic and the are guardians of peace and justice.
Letting a despot rise without opposition would likely not be the Jedi way.

2) So if they simply kill Palpatine, what about the senate?
They realize that Palpatine would not be able to do this without having a lot of supporters in the senate.
So Palpatine is not the only problem, a new chancellor could be in Palpatine's pocket and could act against the Jedi. And this does not solve the basic problem, the senate is totally corrupt.

3) So if they remove Palpatine, the senate needs some action as well.

So the jedi are debating options here, inaction is still an action and could be bad.
Action is also risky, which Yoda even says.
The Jedi are simply trying to prepare for possible eventualities.
If the war ends and Palpatine steps down, as he promised, good.
But what if he doesn't?

And all this was talk when Palpatine was not known as a sith, that tidbit changed things.
Did Mace have a plan when he left to arrest Palpatine?
If he did, it wasn't very well thought out.
He went there to arrest him and yet he knew how connected Palpatine was, how the court and the senate was in his pocket.
Did he think that Palpatine would just come quietly and let himself be arrested?
Now what?
They have no evidence beyond Anakin's say so.

Sure, solid evidence that Palpatine was a sith and that he was working with the seps and was behind the whole war, that could turn popular opinion against him and those senators that had been "loyal" might turn against him as well to save their own skins.

Bye.
The Guarding Dark

 

They would face major challenges. Palpatine had everything in place. During the war, the military/military elite had been growing, growing in power, and slowly taking over the role of leadership from the Jedi.

I think the way everything happened, was the way everything had to happen. Palpatine's empire only lasted for a generation. A mere blip in the grand scheme of things, and long history of the republic.

 

Honestly? Old Sheev would've won anyway. He'd be turned into a martyr and handed a gigantic posthumous propaganda victory against the Jedi. Mace being Mace, I doubt he even had a plan to handle the aftermath, and if Amedda, Pestage, or one of the other members of the Sheev Bootlicker Society had beat him to the press, it'd be all over.

 

I agree that Mace had no plan and had not thought this through all that much.
But if Palpatine is the only one that can issue order 66 then the clone army will still follow the Jedi's commands.
So they still have a big army that will do anything they say.

And how would the other people around Palpatine know that he was dead?
They were not there.
If Mace gets to the press first and exposes Palpatine, they would be playing catch-up.

No doubt the situation would be really messy and big risks for things going badly.
But with no order 66, the Jedi are not under a direct military threat,
There could be resentment sure and the jedi might get vilified.
But for them, anything other than what actually happened is likely to be better.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Agreed. I think the Jedi were outplayed. For far too long they had ignored the problems of the Senate, of the corruption in the Republic and the system rotten to the core. There is a deleted scene from AOTC where Dooku (whether genuine or just for appearances) offers Padme a chance to join them, because the Republic cannot be saved, and it was time to start over. I think this is partly what Palpatine was doing. Whilst of course we find out who he really is and his own agenda to take out the Jedi Order, and absolute power, in a curious way, he does actually appear genuine about his speech in TPM that the Republic has no interest in the common good and the bureaucrats rule the day.

I think the Jedi had been outplayed by Palpatine politically and had few options. I suppose they could have presented their case with friendly non corrupt Senators, but would the numbers add up. Go public? But the Jedi Order didn't appear that well rehearsed in public relations. They had that mythical element to them in some parts of the galaxy and simply didn't have a political relationship with galactic citizens. They were keepers of the peace, generals in the army and warriors with mysterious powers. They certainly had a place in the governance structure it would appear with an allegiance to protect the Republic, by way of serving the Senate.

As for your options, well I think the film (and going by film canon alone) makes it clear that before the Jedi Council knew Palpatine was the Sith Lord, they were planning on ensuring he did give up his powers. And if he didn't, they were going to remove him by force. This no doubt would have caused a constitutional crisis of sorts. But given the Jedi Council's command of the Army, this would probably have been irrelevant. Unpopular in some quarters, and playing into the hands of those who want to publicly attack the Jedi Order, but either way, it is demonstrated that the Grand Army reports to Jedi Generals. The only one it seems with any authority above them is the Supreme Chancellor himself. During the Council meeting, when Anakin leaves, it is made clear, that the general consensus of the Jedi Council is to simply take over. I.e. to:

1. Remove Palpatine from office
2. Take control of the Senate
3. Govern themselves and investigate the dark side's influence in the high office
4. Hand over to someone else/new leadership peacefully after controlling the backlash and ensuring no violence, perhaps cleaning out corruption also

When the discovery of Palpatine being the Sith Lord all along, Mace moves immediately, rightfully fearing for the Jedi Order's survival. The plan I suppose was the same:

1. Remove Palpatine from office
2. Place him under arrest as the Sith Lord instigating events and root out the dark side's influence on the Republic
3. The same as the original plan

When Palpatine resists arrest not once, but twice, I suppose Mace's conclusion is right. Palpatine has control of the Senate and the Courts. At this point, he really is too dangerous to be left alive. Mace wanted to "end this once and for all."

I think there may have been backlash, but ultimately the Jedi are in control. I don't see other Senators being able to resist them. The Jedi probably would rout out the corrupt and the evil from the Republic, albeit too late, and possibly at the expense of being viewed as impartial/apolitical.

As for whether the Jedi would ever hand back power to the Senate afterwards, we shall never know. I think though a Republic led by President Yoda might lead to greater things for the galaxy than Palpatine or Mothma.

I think there was some novel somewhere (but it is not film canon) where a dream is had about events that might have been. Where Anakin helps Mace/does not stop him. Windu kills Palpatine and the last of the Sith (that we know of). The dark side that clouds all diminishes at once. The Jedi Council indeed take over. They route out the corrupt and end the war by force. But hand over to Bail Organa, and then I believe an election is called in which Padme wins. Anakin's relationship with Padme is somehow accepted and all is well. Of course this never happened. I believe in that novel it was a dream showing Vader the life he could have had.

 

Yes the Jedi ignored the problems of the senate for far too long.
After TPM, where the senate would a) not act to settle a planetary blockade that was done to strong arm the senate into getting rid of a trade tax. And b) further not act when told about an actual invasion and murder of servants of the senate happening.
This should have alerted the Jedi that things were very wrong in the senate and they should have paid more attention.
Like trying to reach out to senators they felt they could trust and make some connections.

And after AotC and all the fishy things the Jedi seemingly ignore but I have ranted about that long enough in other places.

Like in Babylon 5. There protagonists realize that something is wrong in their own government and they decide that they must do something. But they work quietly, behind the scenes and gather intel, make alliances and work within the system for a while. Only when that no longer works do they work openly.

And again, I think the Jedi, for maybe the first time, was thinking ahead and acting instead of reacting.
Too little, too late of course but it showed that they did consider options.
And if Palpatine did not step down, if they did nothing, how is that better?
Inaction is still an action and simply letting someone taking control of the republic, one they are sworn to protect, that would likely be a worse betrayal of their oaths than doing something.

They have only bad options so they need to find the least bad and that is often the case in reality. That there is no simple solution that is all good. Just a number of bad ones and you need to find the one which is the least terrible.
And doing nothing because there is no "perfect" solution, as I've said inaction is still an action.

Also, Mace knew that Palpatine controlled the senate and the courts before he went over there.
So why would he then forget and suddenly think of that later?
No, I think he saw that a) he could not subdue Palpatine to take him in, b) if he let down his guard, Palpatine would likely kill him, even without a weapon. And c) what prison could hold him?
So he made the choice to kill because Palpatine was too powerful a Force user.

He should definitely have thought for more than five seconds before charging off to arrest Palpatine.
Like talking to Yoda and also warning the other Jedi about the clones.

I think it could have been interesting if Mace had taken along Anakin right away.
What then?
Anakin was all for arresting Palpatine, probably he thought that he could still pump Palpatne for his info when he was in jail.
Would Palpatine have attacked when Anakin was there?
He likely would have tried to turn Anakin against the others but again, Mace was going for an arrest and Anakin had no problem with that.
If Palpatine attacked the others right there, Anakin might react on instinct and fight him.
Palpatine might say "If you arrest me, you will never have the info you need. To get it, you must kill the other jedi!"
Would Anakin go for that right there?
Maybe, maybe not.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor