ST What's your opinion on Sheev Palpatine coming back as the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

@Sauron_18
I would say this piece of concept art kinda shows that atleast whoever designed this was on a similar line of thinking as you. Looks as if they are grafting synth skin or maybe clone tissue over his dead and deformed skin. With one side looking deformed with white pupils and the other normal and even with an eyebrow.

 

Yeah, visually, I love everything with rotted corpse/clone body in TROS. It's just a shame they had such an underwhelming explanation for his return. I really wish they could've figured a way to give Ian more scenes to at least utilize him more.

 

Personally i have never had a huge issue with no explanation as to how he is back. i like the use of "the dark side of the force" line they used. it gives a dark sinister sense of mystery.

My issue is more that i don't think Palpatines plan made much sense. There are so many holes in it that it feels like they were not really trying.

 

What, you don't like the part where after 30 years of building in total secrecy he sent a warning to the galaxy that his Invincible Fleet would be ready to leave Planet NoNavigation-NoShields in 16 hours?

 

Well Luke did say Palpatine's "overconfidence" was his weakness. so that probably could explain that one. since apparently they needed to track down a Holocron... i mean a Wayfinder in order to even be able to find him.

 

That's without a doubt the weakest part of the plan. The rest of it makes sense, but the framing is imperfect as presented on-screen.

 

I'm trying to figure out some headcanon that makes sense of Palpatine's plan for his fleet. It doesn't fully work out yet, but I thought I'd share:

What if the Sith fleet was actually trapped in Exegol and needed someone from outside to open the way out for them?

At surface level, the wayfinders may seem like they're simply maps. That would mean that once you get to Exegol, you don't need the wayfinder anymore, you can just record the path and keep it stored elsewhere. But the movie does hint that they're more than just maps, because the path to Exegol is always shifting.

So when Palpatine and Vader died above Endor, it was only a matter of time before the path to Exegol also closed up. The Sith loyalists in Exegol were able to do a few things before that happened, such as sending Snoke and Ochi out on their respective missions. But, eventually, the path to Exegol was sealed once more.

So, decades later, and once the Sith fleet was ready, the resurrected Emperor would have needed to send out his message in order to have someone from outside find a wayfinder and forge a new path to Exegol. Kylo was the one who ended up doing this, and once he arrived in Exegol, the loyalists would have been able to get data from the wayfinder to update their maps. This would mean they could then start the complicated fleet launch.

I admit that this bit of headcanon has a few wrinkles.

Firstly, why didn't the Sith send out an agent to retrieve one of the wayfinders while the path was still open? Well, maybe they did. Ochi had a blade that was specifically designed to help him find it. Perhaps he was meant to extract Palpatine's wayfinder after he successfully abducted Rey. But, the timing doesn't work out too well. This would've meant Exegol was open for ten full years after ROTJ, and why would they not send someone else to find the wayfinder before that? (Did it take too much time for the ruins to be accessible because of leftover radiation?) Additionally, how would they be able to forge that blade if they didn't already know where the wayfinder was located? (Was that something Palpatine's spirit could have communicated somehow?)

Another wrinkle is Snoke. Wouldn't the Sith have simply had Snoke retrieve the wayfinder and re-open the path for them? Well, perhaps Snoke really did rebel against his unseen master, or attempted to do so. Or perhaps Palpatine did not want to overplay his control of Snoke before it was time to open the path, only for Kylo to kill Snoke before that date arrived. I know the expanded materials have other potential characters going into and out of Exegol after ROTJ, but I wanted to just focus on the two we know for sure had done it based on the movies. (Palpatine's son was not specifically an Exegol clone in the movies, after all. He could've just been in Coruscant.)

There are probably other issues with this theory. And I know that this is all just speculation. But I do detect a certain parallelism between the Exegol/wayfinder storyline and stories in other media that feature locations that are sealed off and can only be accessed at certain points in time. I think the notion that the wayfinder was a key that was needed to open the path to Exegol is present in the movie, which means that Kylo ended up being responsible for opening that can of worms. But perhaps the details of how this made sense, if it ever did, were lost in the drafting process.

Thoughts?

 

I assume the plan was to prepare Death Star Destroyers. probably taking a long time due to how much work it took. then prepare Palpatine's resurrection through whatever means, like through Rey or whatever that plan was meant to be. and then sent out the death star destroyers with the resurrected Emporer or empress leading the attack.

See i don't have any issue with that part of the plan. If anything that can probably be made some sense of. The thing that confuses me about his plan is more where Rey fit into it all. Telling Kylo to kill her. Then saying oh actually i didn't want you dead, i wanted you here. Ok so what was the tactic here? How was that meant to help her find you? Then he claims she can save her friends if she kills him, which will let him take over her body? is that right? But if he takes over her body whose to say he will stop the attack on her friends? its confusing. Then he does all the speech about how she will strike him down... Then when Rey senses Ben is there for some reason he decides to move out of the way and send in his guards to fight her... But i thought you wanted her to kill you? What happened to that? What are the rules to this resurrection?

 

I think Palpatine wanted either Rey or Kylo to strike him down in anger (pit them against each other in anger and the strongest survives) and then take over their body. I don't buy that Palpatine would want to be a subservient consciousness, he probably has a possession plan. This changes when he figures out their a dyad and just rolls with it, no need for young body to house his spirit when he can take the power like life itself. And he still gets to look like himself!

 

Whether it's Palpatine's method of return, or his plan, or the logistics of the ships and the fleet... one thing's for sure, you're all putting a lot more thought into this than JJ and the writers did.

 

This lack of subtlety is no different from Palpatine telling Luke that if he gives into his anger, he'll be Palpatine's slave. Why would Luke willingly submit himself to a lifetime of subjugation? The out-of-universe reason is that the possession plot was added in reshoots and they wanted to convey to the audience what Palpatine's intentions were. Honestly, they could have accomplished this by having Palpatine explain his possession plan to General Pryde with minimal alterations to the existing dialogue.

Why did Palpatine tell Kylo to kill Rey? Possibly to conceal his intentions for Rey? He knows Kylo cares for her and that should Kylo succeed, he'll travel to Exegol with Rey in tow in a vain effort to oust him.

As for the ritual itself, it seems that only through hatred can his soul seize his killer.

 

With Luke i think the assumption is that if Luke gives in to his anger. he will feel the seduction towards the dark side. in the PT every time Anakin gave into his anger its meant to be him getting closer to joining the dark side. which is why Palpatine kept finding ways to frustrate or create negative emotions in him. and even TROS had Rey blast out force lightning (dark side power) when she got angry. i dunno if made sense to happen. but it happened.

I have reread some of leaks that came out last year. and its said there was fear too much exposition would get confusing for the audience. so various lines about what a Dyad is was cut and various lines about Palpatines motivation was cut too. there was apparently fear that too much dyad talk would muddy Palpatines goals to the audience

 

Right, but I feel it had the opposite effect. Palpatine’s goals were easier to understand when his deception was telegraphed and his goal of draining the power of the dyad remained his sole plan. Now the Force dyad is his spontaneous backup plan, and it just feels like Palpatine’s temporary triumph is serendipitous rather than calculated.

 

Yes, well we certainly wouldn't want that.

 

Im late to this thread but heres my 2 republic credits worth.....

Palpatines return does tie the 3 trilogies together. Its a positive effect. If maul could return then sidious certainly could. At the time this movie came out a lot made no sense, exegol, his miraculous return etc but if you read the marvel darth vader title you will know that Palpatine had a back up plan, he was building a superfleet of destroyers and vader knew about it.

So palpatine transferred his essence to a clone and for 30 years was building an army capable of returning the Sith to glory. The First Order, Snoke was yet another massive manipulation in the same way he manipulated the Clone wars to his purpose. Its what he does. Hes behind it all.

Star wars is obsessed with clones, its a nice way out. Whats to say that there arent more then one sidious clone somewhere?? Is he truly dead? Who knows?

Peoples issues is that it undoes Anakins sacrifice. It doesnt. The empire was stopped in its tracks, the second death star destroyed. But 30 years in the SW universe is a long time. The New republic emerged from the ashes of the galactic empire and in turn the first Order emerged and then the Final Order......

Anakin stopped Sidious in Jedi. He saved his son. The rebellion won. But over time things change and they did. If sidious didnt return another sith wouldve. The Sith arent gone now either.

they will be back in some form.....

 

To me it felt like fan fiction and like all fan fiction … some is better and some is worse. Yet, quality is usually not consistent, right? Neither it was here.

 

It just reinforced the bankrupt nature of the trilogy.

 

SW is one of the franchises were the movies are not the complete story or picture. The EU is an important part of filling in the gaps.

So with that in mind you should read some recent darth vader comics. Vader finds exegol, he sees the fleet being built and sees what the emperor is planning even then. He did have a wayfinder and navigated a trecherous path to get there. It nicely linked the OT era to the ST. Worth a read.

As a side note theres a very good story ongoing called the War of the Bounty Hunters which focuses on Boba Fett and what happened after Empire to him and frozen Han solo

 

I think that if a movie needs that, that's a writing issue.

I also think that makes no sense, as if Vader knew all about that, he didn't warn Luke before he died or something.

 

No one should ever have to shell out an extra ~100 dollars on books and comics to understand a movie they saw. That's just ridiculous. The first 6 entries in the Saga weren't that way, and thank goodness because the supplementary material that accompanied them got straight up deleted from the canon.

 

I agree you shouldnt have to shell for anything extra to understand the movie or movies. However if everything was to be properly explained the chances are the movies would be too long.

Some of us enjoy the EU and enjoy things being elaborated upon elsewhere because the movies dont have the time. As for Vader not warning Luke why should he? he had other things on his mind and maybe he figured once Palpatine died it wouldnt come to fruition.

Plus in 1982 when it was written there was no Exegol. There was no ST. The story at that time was done with Jedi. The story was told. This story in Marvel just does its best to link the eras and add cohesion to the Movie storyline.

Not totally accurate. We got the story Shadows of the Empire which told the story of how luke went from beaten Jedi at the end of empire to a confident Luke with his green lightsaber in Jedi and how Leia got the boussh costume and how the bothans got the deaths star plans. Thats a great story.

 

EU material should be new stories or elaborations on old ones. Shadows of the Empire was a great example of elaboration. Rise of Kylo Ren, however, was the only source of information that should have been in the ST. In the context of the 9-episode Saga, the fact that it was so important to know why Anakin fell that we got a whole trilogy devoted to it but we got almost nothing re his grandson’s fall is baffling and can only be explained by the chaotic nature of the ST’s production.

There was a 20-year jump between RotS and ANH but nothing really changed in those years. The ST starts off 30 years post-RotJ, everything’s changed dramatically, and yet next-to-no background context is given.

TFA gave me the very strong impression that the bedrock of the ST was: What happened in those 30 years, why, and how will it shape our new heroes? Had the OT3 not been presented as major players, this would not have necessarily been the logical premise. But they were.

 

While cool looking, the problem with this, is that we've already seen this Frankenstein-monster-cyborg concept. Vader. It's rehash. Palpatine may be stuck to a puppet armature, but it's the same basic thing.

Palpatine Returns could have worked if Palpatine Returns was planned as part of the story from the beginning. And it's not even that they wanted to slowly reveal this story throughout all 3 episodes, or were being secretive about the reveal, the reveal didn't even exist until one was needed to save their story-bacon at the last moment.

Palpatine's return should have been shown some dark arts reincarnation-resurrection concepts. Mixed with some tech, of course, cuz it's SW. But I would have loved to see some dark force wizardry established in TFA that showed some mysterious being was being brought back to life by the Sith Cultists. And then slowly, and the audience discovers this Palpy-twist just as the protagonist does. (Especially since Rey is Rey Related)

 

I feel that showing Palpatine in episode 7 for example would have come across abit saturday morning cartoonish. Palpatine is stuck to a robotic arm unable to move so he would just be popping up every so often to give orders for 3 movies.