ST What's your opinion on Sheev Palpatine coming back as the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

Idea vs execusion. In terms of an idea. It works fine. People probably wont like how it was done for reasons. But it makes sense as an idea to bring multiple actors/character back from the saga to help Rey take down the saga's big bad. Its like they all had a part in his defeat.

 

Oh please. The ST managed to destroy the New Republic, the New Jedi Order... it killed off Han, Luke and Leia... and brought back Palpatine, which effectively undid Anakin Skywalker's entire 6 movie character arc. It wasn't just the execution... conceptually, philosophically, intellectually, the ST blows chunks...

 

You're making a lot of baseless assumptions here. Who says the ability to heal others means you can heal yourself? Kylo was unable to heal himself when Rey wounded him on Kef Bir; Rey was unable to heal herself after murdering Grandpa.

You're assuming that the ability to heal others translates to the ability to heal oneself. Not only is that baseless, the film actually suggests otherwise with the examples I identified above.

It's really not like saying that at all. Obi-Wan's midichlorians are with him 24/7. Rey's "all the Jedi" powerup was a context-specific and singular instance, which is why she was unable to commune with them throughout the duration of the film and how Grandpa was able to spank her and Ben at the same time.

Rey's all the Jedi powerup is fundamentally more analogous to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fighting Maul together, Obi-Wan and Anakin fighting Dooku together, etc. It's not her power that allows her to defeat the Emperor, but borrowed Force juice given to her from the spirits of thousands of Jedi past.

It's weird that your dislike of the film has motivated you to completely abandon any and all context.

Rey dies killing Palpatine and is only able to kill him because thousands of Jedi spirits lend her their power. She is the conduit for their borrowed energies, to be sure, but those energies are not with her at all times, are not inherent to her person and her lifeforce, and are externally derived and have to be channeled with enormous concentration and effort: which is why she lies on her back, helpless, begging them to "be with" her for minutes.

It's ironic that someone who appeals to "philosophical sophistication" crafts an argument that relies on the notion that only a film's final 10 minutes are what counts and meaningful analysis doesn't require context.

To recap... without the borrowed power of ten thousand Jedi, Rey and Kylo are both absolutely helpless to stop Palpatine at his most decrepit and vulnerable. This is clearly depicted in the film when they face off against him after disposing of the Sovereign Protectors. With a single burst of telekinesis, he disarms them, brings them to their knees, and immobilizes them. Power to power, they're nothing to him. When he's fully restored, he replicates Rey's feat of starship-defeating Force lightning... but on a scale that dwarfs hers by literal orders of magnitude. She is beaten, exhausted, and reduced to begging the spirits of past Jedi for external aid. She's unable to stop Grandpa alone.

This has been pointed out to you many times, but you literally haven't addressed it once, instead attempting to kill the conversation with the tired refrain BUT SHE KILLED HIM, which I have repeatedly addressed by reminding you of all the mitigating factors involved (e.g. external help from thousands of Jedi spirits, two lightsabers, and she died from the effort and would've stayed dead if not for Kylo resurrecting her).

If you're unwilling or incapable of discussing this in good faith in order to litigate your hatred of this film unchallenged, just save us both time and let me know.

 

You're entire logic is flawed because you're using the lack of internal logic as your basis for supporting evidence. If, for example, a Jedi can levitate an object, it's perfectly logical to assume that the Jedi could levitate themselves... unless the text/information imparted explicitly states otherwise. This is a fairly basic tenet of writing.

As per above. The film suggests no such thing. What it *does* establish is that Rey has the ability to heal fatal wounds. That's a substantial skill never seen before in either the Jedi or Sith right?

You seem to be making a lot of baseless assumptions. Can you point me to the dialogue in the film that states 'channeling ALL Jedi' was only ever possible for a single occurrence in the entirety of the SW timeline? And why, for example, Yoda/Mace/Obi-Wan et al couldn't have 'spanked' Palpatine in ROTJ? Or prior to the Jedi Academy being destroyed? It would have saved a lot of time and needless death and destruction afterwards right? Can you let me know where in TROS it explicitly explains all this? Or is it that you're just making **** up in order to defend a badly conceived and written film? Hmmm..

Oh so it's 'borrowed force' now? When did 'borrowed force' become a thing in the films? Are you sure you're not thinking of the X-Men?

The 'context' you allude to doesn't exist. This is why many people/fans don't like it. My dislike of the film is based on its technical/creative application (or lack of).

That she has the ability to channel ALL Jedi is the point... Luke and Obi-Wan (Ewan version) had the ability to commune with force ghosts. It was a skill. George Lucas specifically showed it was a skill that had to be learnt. But that doesn't mean that Luke and Obi-Wan, in this example, had the ability to summon spirits at will. They couldn't command them to appear. The skill was the ability to commune, not to command them. So that a skill requires force ghosts/spirits to participate, that it requires mutual understanding, doesn't mean it isn't a skill. That's a relatively simple concept to understand.

That argument doesn't hold much weight, especially as you've not provided any meaningful context, and have not been specific about which part of the film you believe needs further analysis to highlight your point. So far, I think your 'point' has been an erroneous one.

Your entire argument seems to be predicated on the notion that either... A) anyone could have channeled all the Jedi to defeat Palpatine. Or B) All the Jedi could, at any given time, just kill Palpatine. As badly as TROS is written, there is nothing in it to suggest either of those things... because they make even less sense that what's already in the film... and you have provided absolutely no additional context or insight (other than your own arbitrary and fatuous definition of 'skill'), to

As per above, the entire premise of your argument is fatuous... If it weren't you'd be able to explain why it's never established that Jedi can channel ALL Jedi to vanquish foes, or indeed, why ALL Jedi have never been able to independently channel themselves through a host prior to events in TROS. You've skirted around those fundamental questions every time youv'e been asked... because the only obvious answer (as bad as it may be), is that Rey has to learn how to do it i.e. it's a SKILL.

That's projection on your part. If you were discussing in 'good faith', you would have answered the above at the first opportunity (rather than you're continuous sidestepping). And it's somewhat ironic that, in you defence of this badly written film, your argument to justify Rey requires her to be nothing more than an empty vessel.

 

Your*
So, in other words... yes, you're baselessly assuming that Rey's ability to heal others means she can heal herself, even though she never does in the film, even when it would be extremely beneficial, and relies on the external assistance of others (all the Jedi, Ben, etc.).

The film does indeed suggest such a thing since, of course, Rey relies on others to reinvigorate and resurrect her when she's wounded or dying. You understand what a suggestion is, right?

Your nerd rage is something to behold. I'm not defending the film's quality at all; I'm merely defending the fact that Sheev is clearly depicted as the most powerful single Force user in the film. Of the litany of legitimate criticisms you could direct at this movie, you choose to die on this hill?

No one claimed that Rey's "all the Jedi" powerup was a singular instance in the SW timeline, merely that it was a context-specific and singular instance for her in the movie. She's unable to commune or channel them in the beginning, spends most of her time struggling with a variety of challenges, is matched blow for blow by Kylo for most of the film, and is woefully outclassed by Sheev... until the very end when the spirits of Jedi past lend her their strength. Then and only then is she able to stand toe-to-toe against the Emperor.

You're free to complain about how silly the Deus Ex Machina is and its implications for the wider saga; I'm simply pointing out the fact that Rey needs borrowed power from dead Jedi to match her Grandpa.

Yes, channeling the power of thousands of Jedi past is a borrowed power. Because it's not her power. It's the power of other Jedi that she's merely channeling as a conduit.

The context to which I refer is observable in the film and its surrounding sources. Specifically the fact that without the all the Jedi powerup, Rey and Kylo are curbstomped by the Emperor. You've failed to address that consistently, pretending like that scene never happened. Would you like the clip?



This scene in which Sheev effortlessly defeats Rey and Ben in a display of vastly superior power is, believe it or not, actually in the movie we're discussing. As it turns out, there's more to TROS's runtime than the last ten minutes.

Yes, she has an ability... to call for Force backup in the form of thousands of Jedi spirits.

In much the same way as, in an otherwise 1v1 street fight, I have the ability... to text my friends for backup to help me manhandle my otherwise singular, superior opponent. You wouldn't then say "Oh wow, Sable_Hart's clearly the superior fighter!"

The meaningful context was already provided, you're simply ignoring it: without the aid of "all the Jedi" lending her their power, Rey is demonstrably no match for Sheev.

My argument is predicated on neither. It's predicated on the fact that without "all the Jedi" lending her their power, Rey is outclassed by Grandpa (1) in a direct feat-to-feat comparison and, more importantly, (2) when she squares up on Grandpa with only Ben as backup... and he effortlessly defeats them both. You've failed to address either one of these points; likely because they reveal how ridiculous this particular criticism of yours is.

No one ever denied that Rey develops a skill for calling magical backup from thousands of Jedi spirits to lend her their power in an otherwise hopeless battle with her grandfather. You, bizarrely, seem to think that explicitly requiring a powerup from thousands of Jedi spirits means she's more powerful than her Grandpa even though the entire point is that she isn't, which is why she needs that backup and powerup in the first place.

No one's defending this film or it's quality, merely a very specific and very silly claim of yours that Rey is more powerful than Sheev. As explained in the canon reference novel, Skywalker: A Family At War:



Rey is no match for Sheev without the "united" power of the spirits of Jedi past. "They gave her the strength to keep going." Rey herself is simply no match for Sheev himself. Pretending otherwise is flagrantly dishonest; you should consider abandoning this ridiculous claim and go back to litigating your rage on better ground with more reasonable points of contention than this.

 

Would have worked better if they had a movie between TLJ and ROS that built up his return. Simple: just have Kylo hear voices. First he hears voices of Snoke and starts to go crazy because he knows he killed Snoke. Then he hears Vader's voice. Finally, he hears a "mystery" voice which is Palpatine's. He spends most of the movie searching for the source of the voices. While he does that, he faces Rey (who is trying to free/secure Force sensitive children she senses) and beats her badly. He also conjures up his Knights of Ren and has a cat fight for leadership with Hux (until Pryde shows up).

That way, when we begin TRoS, he had already been searching for Palpatine. Palpatine isn't truly Palpatine himself but a clone experiement by Sith loyalists that contain souls of all the Sith spirits.

 

Or, and hear me out on this one...don't bring back Plapy at all? Make Kylo the main villain.

 

Given the film never states she can't heal herself, it's no more 'baseless' than assuming the contrary position.

That's not correct. Rey isn't really in the position of healing herself; because she expends her force power on reviving Kylo (as Kylo does with Rey). That's what the film seems to be suggesting. You understand what suggestion is right?

'Nerd rage'? Is that what you're using as deflection now? You've been a member of this site for at least as long as I have... so I'm not sure why you'd use that term in its pejorative sense (?)... but anyway... You're conflating a couple of things. Firstly, that out of the 'litany' of issues with this film, this is the most pressing. That is not my opinion. However, you seem somewhat unaware of the fact that this is a thread specific to 'Palpatine coming back as the main villain in the ST'. Palpatine's motivation, utility and the stakes he raises by returning, are key to whether he works as a villain in the ST or not. If you have an issues with that 'hill', then I suggest you take that up with the one whom started the thread. Secondly, by justifying the gaps within the internal logic (one could fly a Star Destroyer through), you are sort of defending it. It doesn't mean you can't like the film. I'm all for folks liking the films they like. I enjoy Solo... but I'm not going to defend some of its writing choices...

So why couldn't Luke, Yoda or Obi-Wan use that trick? Or was it that the spirits of dead Jedi only believed it was 'worth it' in TROS? Is this explained on the pamphlet, line drawing, fag packet you're using?

And Palpatine has the power of ALL the SIth and uses some of the power of the Dyad for a refresh... and he still loses. It seems like Palaptine is no more reliant on other things than Rey.

Can you provide quotes from the film or is this you making **** up again?

You're creating a context that doesn't exist... or at best allowing yourself to be blinded. Your basic argument is that there is no required skill, apparatus or method required for Rey to channel ALL Jedi.. and that, by virtue, if Jar Jar Binks were on Exegol... he could simply say 'beeza wheeza mezza', and he could have vanquished Palpatine too? Is that what you think they film is trying to convey?

Wow... that's quite an ability Rey has isn't it? To conjure up the force power of ALL those Jedi in a moment? No wonder Rey killed Palpatine then huh?

Wow... congrats on reducing the philosophical nature of relative power in Star Wars to its most vapid. Perhaps you were the target audience for TROS (?), but "strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"... or similar... is more akin to how I'd define relative power of force users in SW. And that the ST is never able (on uninterested) in taking those positions, and dealing with why the Jedi ultimately won out; is why the ST fails in these areas... and why Palaptine's inclusion in the ST is totally toothless and without significance to the wider narrative.

You stating the same thing ad nauseam doesn't make it so. And at the risk of repeating myself, your entire argument is based on a false assumption that Rey has power that's 'lent' her, whilst ignoring the fact that she seems to have a 'unique' (we've never seen it before right?) gift... the ability to channel the power of other Jedi. It seems, for you, 'power' in Star Wars is more based on ones ability to use force lightning... which seems a very odd takeaway.

Again, as it's a false premise (based on an arbitrary and subjective criteriaI), it makes any 'point' you have largely redundant/meaningless.

You kind of did... because you're positioning it as 'ALL the Jedi' using Rey... rather than Rey using 'ALL the Jedi'. And the latter makes Rey much more powerful than what you present... which seems to be no more than Rey the receptacle.

Nothing 'bizarre' about it... I'm just not sure you have the faculties to understand the difference between the ability to be a conduit to the netherworld (which is something not seen, in this way, in prior Star Wars)... and being just an empty vessel that ALL Jedi control...

Using a comic, novelisation, or the back of a fag packet to demonstrate the meaning/intent of a live action film, is the very definition of 'silly'. That's not how cinema works. It shouldn't need a novelisation, pamphlet or pencil drawing to make it work.

So now you're stating my interpretation of the technical application on display in TROS is 'flagrantly dishonest'? Is that your best shot? Trolling? Indeed you are the audience TROS was written for...

 

Palpatine never should have shown up in the flesh.

At best, he should have been simply voices in Rey's head that she's always heard. But nothing more physical than that. Maybe he's trapped somewhere, or who knows, and wants out, and has chosen Rey to accomplish this ... but that's the extent of it. It's driving her mad at times, and she needs to learn to block out the dark side influences.

Even that is not the best story. But at least Palpatine was dead, and stays dead, and never comes back alive.

 

It's astounding you dedicate so much time to a movie you despise and yet know so little about:



Rey describes the healing process she and Ben employ as "transferring a bit of life: Force energy from me to him." The healing draws on internal power to heal an external target: A -> B. Hence why Rey and Ben are wounded repeatedly throughout the film but are only ever healed by each other, if at all. There's more evidence for my position than yours, unsurprisingly.

I am "sort of" defending the fact that Palpatine is clearly the most powerful Force user in the film. Which he clearly demonstrates with feats that far exceed any of Rey or Kylo's and the fact that he defeats both of them on-screen until one of them gets an external power-up from thousands of Jedi spirits.



^ Here's Sheev beating Rey and Ben casually. You haven't addressed it once.



^ Here's Sheev yeeting Ben casually off a cliff. You haven't addressed it once.

Don't know, don't care: it's a lame and ill-conceived Deus Ex Machina designed to let Rey defeat the Big Bad that she's otherwise helpless to stop.

*Palpatine
There's no evidence Palpatine literally has all the power of the Sith (whereas the opposite is true for Rey) and the Dyad power simply restored his body.

If by "making **** up again," you mean "referring to licensed canon sources which interpret a film" you understand so little about, you can start with the one I provided in the previous post.

As far as the film itself is concerned: Rey is on her back, beaten, asks the spirits of Jedi past to be with her, they reach out and tell her they're with her... and then she's suddenly able to take on Palpatine, who previously defeated her and Ben with casual ease. Clear evidence of an externally-derived powerup... which licensed canon sources subsequently confirm at length for the willfully ignorant.

Yep, I acknowledged Rey had the ability to summon the power of all the Jedi past to defeat Grandpa and die in the process. That doesn't change the fact that the power she's summoning isn't hers, which is why she's unable to defeat Palpatine alone.

*Palpatine
If you wanna make the case that Rey is "more powerful" than Palpatine because light prevails over dark, hope over tyranny, whatever, be my guest. Instead, you appealed to common action tropes--LOOK WHO DEFEATED WHO IN THE FINAL COMBAT--to make your determination, indicating you were also framing this as a matter of physical or mystical power.

Feel free to move the goalpost now, but it doesn't change the fact that in a matter of brute Force power, Rey is no match for her Grandfather. He's able to kick her ass casually while dangling from a Sith clothes hanger as a rotting corpse. You, weirdly, denied that fact even though it's on-screen.

But judging from this conversation, you can't recall anything about the movie beyond its final 10 minutes, so that might explain your confusion.

That "false assumption" is grounded in both the film and its various licensed interpretations, such as the one I quoted in the post above. Don't like it? Take it up with the LFL authorities who've literally spelled out on paper things that are obvious in a movie you hate but can't remember.

The power Rey uses to defeat her Grandpa isn't hers; her ability to summon that external power is hers, of course, but that's no different than the President ordering a drone strike. He triggers it with a press of a button, but the power of the detonation doesn't literally derive from his finger.

Without the power of the Jedi past, Rey is no match for her Grandfather. One on one, toe-to-toe, she loses. Which is what happened when she squared up on him the first time.

*Criteria
It's a factually correct premise observed in the film and spelled out at length by multiple licensed canon sources. It's amazing you struggle with this so intensely.

You should consider my words as written rather than inject them with the abundant rage you feel towards this movie.

The movie indicates and other sources subsequently confirm that the spirits of Jedi past lent Rey their power and she channeled it to defeat the Emperor. She's not possessed by them like a Poltergeist, she's empowered by them like an Avatar.

But the power she uses isn't hers, isn't inherent to her, and when she is bereft of it... she's no match for Sheev.

Oh, it's quite bizarre. No one claimed that all the Jedi controlled Rey, merely that she needed their borrowed power to defeat the Emperor (as seen on screen). When she lacked that borrowed power, he was able to effortlessly defeat her (also seen on screen).

No one cares that you need a comic, novelization, or the back of a cigarette pack to tell you what's otherwise plainly indicated on screen. That's more of a reflection of your inability to interpret this film (or perhaps any film, who knows?) beyond the last 10 minutes of it. And even then, you seem to get so much wrong.

I'm stating your interpretation is flagrantly dishonest because it cherrypicks select scenes, disregards others, and contradicts both the film as a whole and the myriad licensed sources which interpret it.

Rey and Sheev confront each other twice:

In round 1, Sheev is a decrepit, rotting corpse hanging from a claw and he effortlessly defeats Rey and Ben simultaneously. I've provided the clip repeatedly but I'm sure you'll continue to ignore it. The reason that Sheev is able to defeat Rey and Ben so casually is because he's much more powerful than either or both of them.

In round 2, Sheev is fully restored and Rey has summoned the power and spirits of Jedi past. Here, she's able to kill Palpatine while dying in the process. The reason she's able to succeed here where she failed less than 10 minutes before is because she was able to use a vast borrowed power to close the delta between her and her grandfather.

To use fewer words in the vain hope they help you understand:

Sheev beats Rey and Ben on screen in round 1. He's more powerful than they Rey and Ben.
Rey + all the Jedi beat Sheev on screen in round 2. Sheev is not more powerful than Rey + all the Jedi.

In your next post, consider strawmanning less and actually addressing the clips of the movie I provided. Like Anakin before you, you're being blinded by rage and hate. Embrace the Jedi path and respond in good faith.

 

I neither despise the film nor do I dedicate 'so much time' to it. You're projecting.

So she has a the power to heal... a power never seen before in a force user.

But we've already established that your criteria for 'power' isn't a particular sophisticated one... so your argument becomes moot. It's like a worm believing nothing exists above a wall.

You mean the 'power up' from the dyad? It's amusing how quickly you forget your own argument...

Why would Palpatine force throwing Ben be reflective of Palptine's relative power to Rey? I've admittedly only watched TROS 3 times, whilst I'm sure you watch it every day, but force hurling something (be it Ben or a rock) is a rather prosaic feat in the ST... especially as Rey can levitate herself... and I don't see Palp's doing that. You seem very desperate to defend this film...

Of course you don't care. Internal logic, precedence and context, seemingly, mean little to you. Which is why, I assume, you are compelled to defend it.

So again you're resorting to making **** up. Does Palpatine say he's 'all Sith' or not??? Does the film explicitly state that the dyad ONLY 'restored his body'? If anything, he looks less human after using the dyad... so it clearly wasn't just giving him a couple of digits back.

"Making **** up" as in you are manufacturing reasons, explanations etc., which are not present in the actual film, to back up your factious points ... and resorting to referencing novelisations (which speaks to the desperation of the ill equipped).

Again, you seem to have such a trite understanding of the context. Since when has the hero being 'flat on the canvas' been cinematic shorthand for being defeated? That's usually the precise moment the hero finds the inner strength to get back on their feet and deliver the 'knock out' punch... which is exactly what Rey does. Her channeling the power of the Jedi isn't to show how weak she is, it's meant to show how powerful she has become. I mean, I don't like the film, but even I give credit to Abrams for demonstrably showing that Rey has the power to defeat Palaptine. Is it that you've never watched many films, many books... so don't have the frame of reference (?), or is it that your rabid defence of Palaptine's inclusion in the film has blind sided you?

No more than Palpatine being ALL Sith and using the power of the dyad... I know you don't really want to expand your notion of the more philosophical nature of power, but come on, 'power' is more than lightening right?

Not really no. I'm 'framing' this as which one had the ability and skill to prevail... both in the physical and meta-physical sense. And that's Rey. I'm not sure Abrams would position it that way, as I think we've probably spent more time in the past 2 days arguing this than Abrams ever did thinking about it, but the net result is the same i.e. Rey overcomes Palpatine. More importantly, and this is the element that seems lost on you, or you choose to ignore, that Palpatine was introduced as the 'big bad' of the ST so late on, any threat or peril is diminished. And this diminishment of threat and peril is largely due to the prosaic nature of his 'power'. Other than him being able to 'essence transfer' into a clone host (let's not go there), he's basically doing the same stuff. Galactic domination, force lightning etc. There is no meta-physical threat he presents. This coupled with the fact that Rey is already shown to have the powers no other Jedi has previously had, and that she is already 'trying' to commune with ALL Jedi ('be with me'), demonstrates she's already dipping her toe into a sphere of power Palpatine isn't even cognisant of (otherwise he'd be focused on how to stop the threat from the Jedi in the netherworld right?). Ergo, Palaptine may be able to fry starships with lightning... but that's small potatoes compared to having the ability to commune with the netherworld and channel the power of ALL Jedi.

No moving the goalposts from me... although I expect you needed to read the novelisation to understand what a goalpost actually is...

'Licensed interpretation'... ... You are almost beyond parody... but not quite... 'It's true I tell you... it was written on this here bubblegum card'...

Rey ordering a drone strike would be comparable to the president ordering a drone strike. Rey has the ability to commune with Jedi long dead... and now you're saying, in relative skill terms, that's the same as picking up a phone in Star Wars? Doh!!! I'm wondering if you've ever watched anything but TROS?

So by default that would make Mace Windu the most powerful force user that's ever lived... which would be a silly view to have.

As with most of what you spout, that is not the case. Please give me the line of dialogue in the film where it explicitly states that it's a 'power up', and that the ability to channel other force users is only 'loaned' to Rey? Or do you need to refer to your comic/pamphlet or other?

The feeling is mutual. Do you have the ability to tie shoelaces and chew gum at the same time?

I sense the 'rage' is yours really. I find this all mildly amusing TBH.

So you admit she's 'empowered'? Finally.

It's a sign of your inability to rationalise that's the issue here. Brushing aside the fact that Palpatine is ALL Sith... brushing aside the fact that he receives a dramatic overhaul by the dyad... those things aside... whom exactly decided that 'power' must be 'inherent' for it to be defined as such? Which novelisation did you take that from? You seem to be ignoring Palpatine's 'power ups' and using an arbitrary criteria for power, which doesn't align to the common definition of the word. Just as a helpful guide... these are the Oxford ones:

*The ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way
*The capacity or ability to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events

I don't think you're 'bizarre'... just misdirected. Star Wars establishes that the ability/skill the Jedi have over the Sith is their ability to:
A) Retain their consciousness after death.
B) Commune with the Jedi whom have retained their consciousness after death.
TROS puts another one into the mix:
C) The ability to channel the power of ALL Jedi

Rey already has B and C under her belt... and she probably has A as well... but C is no more a 'lent' power than B... and both require skill and learning to master. I state 'require' because TROS suggests (you know what 'suggests' means right?) that Rey is trying to tap into ALL Jedi at the start of the film. George Lucas was at pains to demonstrate that B was a fundamental skill Qui-Gon, Yoda and Obi-Wan had to learn (reiterated in the Obi-Wan Kenobi show)... and it was something the Sith could not do. Ergo it's a fundamental power Rey has that Palaptine... presumably... does not (or didn't) have.

What an odd comment? You clearly 'care'... as it's you that keeps referencing them, not me.

But we've already established that you knowingly create arbitrary criteria to shape your view of the world... so the 'dishonesty' is emperically yours...

Your interpretation is so facile, it makes me wonder if you are feigning it to pursue the trolling approach? In lieu of being able to make a pencil drawing for you... I'll simplify it for you (all in TROS)...

*Rey has the ability to move objects through space and time (wow... that's like Timelord/God type power levels never seen in Star Wars)
*Rey can use force lightening (cool - kind of unique for a Jedi, but ok)
*Rey can force heal fatal injuries/wounds (wow... pretty amazing and probably more useful than force lightening in the scheme of things)
*Rey has the ability to commune with force spirits (very cool... but nothing we've not seen Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda doing... albeit Lucas probably thought it was the most powerful tool in the Jedi's arsenal)
*Rey can harness the power of ALL Jedi that existed and use it at her will (wow... it's like she is her own Ark of the frickin Covenant... imagine having that ability at your fingertips)

*Palaptine has 'somehow returned' (Hmmm ok)
*Palpatine can harness the power of the dyad to rejuvenate himself a bit (Hmmm ok)
*Palaptine is ALL Sith (well I guess if Rey can do it, Palpatine can???)
*Palpatine's force lightening has come on leaps and bounds (ok... but why bother even bother going down the armed fleet route?)
*Palpatine has a nice new outfit (cool)

With rapid defenders like yourself... it's sometimes amusing to feed the troll... but can I suggest you desist from being so asinine?

 

Never mind that the idea of the Jedi beating the Sith through the use of raw power is antithetical to who they are. The Sith Lords are more powerful than the Jedi. But the strength of the Jedi doesn’t come from power. And by making the final battle all about power, the filmmakers just proved that they had the same mentality as the Sith.

 

There's absolutely no heart and soul in the final battle. And that's because the ST story itself isn't based on heart, or even something remotely spiritual. (As was the case for the OT, and even the PT). It's completely soulless. It's made by someone who failed to understand what the OT story was actually about when he was copying the OT story beat for beat.

And the Jedi are more powerful than the Sith, but not in the way that the Sith care about. The Jedi have compassion, and selfishness, and are able to become one with the Force. This is what eventually won over Anakin from the dark side. This is more powerful than lightning and lightsaber skills.

 

Here in lies the problem with how Palpatine is positioned within the ST (IMO) i.e. it's the path of least resistance... his threat is based on the material/physical peril he brings... it's reduced to that of him having a bigger fleet, bigger guns, or his force lightning having a bigger reach. And whilst I totally get that within a Star Wars film, there has to be an antagonist that commands some form of fleet/army etc., in terms of the Sith, I think it kind of moved on from that... and in order to have Palpatine return in a meaningful way, he should have presented a more metaphysical threat... That would have at least raised the stakes and shown something a bit different.

 

That role and planning needed to be there from the start yet we saw what TFA and TLJ did.

 

Which is also why the voices from beyond pep talk to Rey is shallow and meaningless. It's just nostalgia checkboxes to make the audience think this moment is important and deep. When it's the opposite.

 

Denial is the first stage of grief but I have faith that you'll eventually hit acceptance.

*the power to heal
You're moving the goalpost again. I never denied she had the power to heal [others]. I denied she had the power to heal herself.

particularly*
You're welcome to redefine power as something more amorphous like "strength of character" or "integrity" or whatever makes you happy; but that wasn't the context of this particular conversational tangent, so I don't care.

In a contest of Force pushes and Force zap zaps, Sheev is > Rey per the film and the myriad licensed sources which surround the film.

It's a clip that's less than 2 minutes long and you're unwilling or incapable of watching anything but the end of it? Yikes.

So to explain: Sheev effortlessly disarms them and brings them to their knees before draining their lifeforce to "restore" the "one true Emperor." The draining comes after that.

And there is no powerup: his body is merely restored, per his own words and the numerous sources that follow.

Because Ben and Rey are comparably powerful until Rey summons the power of Jedi past to enhance her powers further. That's the whole point of the Dyad, two equals and opposites matched in the Force and why they fight as peers throughout the movie. So Sheev's ability to casually yeet Ben after stomping both Ben and Rey at the same time is further proof of how much more powerful Sheev is than Rey.

Granted, I don't expect you to know this since you've only ever seen the last 10 minutes of the movie. And since that's been sufficient for you to spend 77 pages ranting about it, I can't imagine what watching the whole thing would do to your fragile psyche.

I'm defending the fact that Sheev is clearly depicted as being more powerful than Rey until Rey gets backup from the spirits of all Jedi past. The movie is, on the whole, a dumpsterfire.

Your grasp of argumentation is crude, so to explain: I can (1) agree with you that a movie is bad while (2) disagreeing with you that certain facts weren't clearly conveyed in that bad movie, such as (3) Sheev being more powerful than Rey.

No, Palpatine says he's all the Sith but what that means is left up to the viewer. Is he being metaphorical: the culmination of their power and success? Is he being literal: a monstrous gestalt consciousness fused from Sith spirits, including his own?

Sith spirits have heretofore not existing in Star Wars canon lore, we don't see or hear Sith spirits lending Sheev their power in the film, and the subsequent sources surrounding TROS have been persistently vague about the situation.

In contrast, Rey's communion with the spirits of Jedi past is depicted on-screen as being quite literal. We can't necessarily say the same for Sheev because the facts are much less clear.

Yep. In the clip I provided, Palpatine says "the power of two restores the one true Emperor" and visibly heals his body, restoring him to the physical form he had at the end of the prequels and during ROTJ.

Given that I've referred to multiple clips from the film itself (these are from the parts of the movie that aren't the last 10 minutes, thus your confusion), your interpretation is (once again) flawed. But I appreciate how consistent you are in being wrong. Most people try to shake things up every now and then, but you stick to what you know and I respect that.

*Palpatine
I appreciate your superficial appeal to narrative tropes, but when discussing a film one must actually delve into the particulars of the film in question. I must stress again that it would help if you've actually watched the movie outside the last 10 minutes.

Certainly the Heroic Second Wind is a well known trope, but in this case TROS actually attempts to mechanically justify it. Rather than depict an unexplained and unlikely reinvigoration, Abrams and Terrio explain the source of Rey's second wind: An external source, the spirits of Jedi past. Help from outside, from beyond. Rey herself is no match for the Emperor, so she needs help. It's one of the themes of the movie: the heroes are outmatched and outclassed until they get more help.

This manifests itself not only in the battle with Sheev in the Sith temple but also in the skies above. The Resistance shows up and they're doomed against the Final Order... until the 14,000 ships of Lando's citizen fleet arrives: "There are more of us, Poe, there are more of us!"

*lightning
As I explained, whether Sheev is literally "all the Sith" is not answered in the film (unlike Rey being literally all the Jedi) and the Force dyad does not enhance his powers but merely restores his physical vitality to its pre-sequel form.

This is all well and good and fine, but this movie does indeed ratchet up the threat Sheev poses to the heroes. By the end of the film, we've learned that he:

• Returned from the dead
• Created Snoke, the previous Big Bad
• Was responsible for corrupting Ben into Kylo Ren
• Was behind the destruction of the new Jedi order and, thus, Luke's exile
  
• Was behind the First Order and, thus, the destruction of the New Republic
• Created ten thousand planet killers in secret
• Can effortlessly curbstomp the uber-rare, uber-epic Force dyad and drain their lifeforce to restore his vitality
• Can singlehandedly take out 14,000 orbiting starships
• Can stand toe-to-toe against a Jedi channeling the power and spirits of every Jedi before her

Whether you personally find it trite or insufficient to justify his return is a perfectly valid opinion and nothing I've sought to challenge. The only thing I care about for this particular discussion is whether Sheev is the most powerful singular Force user in the movie, which he is.

So your grudge against this movie (which you haven't watched beyond the final 10 minutes) has further metastasized into a grudge against novelizations. Oof. Although perhaps your true issue is with reading. It would certainly explain the many spelling errors in your posts.

Your envy of my superior reading comprehension is petty and unnecessary; I'm willing to help you in your literacy journey.

The analogy is not in the difficulty of the two acts, but rather that in both scenarios the power summoned is not inherent to the summoner.

No?

Not only because there's a legitimate ambiguity as to whether Sheev threw the fight against Windu to force Anakin's hand to join the dark side and the fact that Sheev is demonstrably much more powerful in TROS than in ROTS. Which is why in TROS, Sheev has to be defeated by the power of every Jedi who ever lived instead of one Jedi alone.

...Do movies convey information only by dialogue? Do you even watch movies at all or do you simply close your eyes and meditate while listening to characters talk?

To summarize: Rey and Kylo repeatedly duel and demonstrate powers as equals or peers. When the two finally square up on Sheev, he effortlessly defeats them both simultaneously before draining their lifeforce to restore his body. Ben (otherwise Rey's peer or equal) recovers before Rey and Sheev casually yeets him into a chasm. Sheev proceeds to zap the 14,000 starships of the citizens fleet out of the sky while Rey watches, crying, from on her back. She once again beseeches the Jedi to "be with [her]"... and this time, they answer: "You're not alone," "Alone, never have you been," "Every Jedi who ever lived lives in you," "We stand behind you, Rey," etc.

And suddenly, at last, she is able to finally stand toe-to-toe against Sheev. This is clearly indicative of a powerup derived from channeling the spirits of Jedi past. The fact that this is subsequently explicitly confirmed in the novelizations/pamphlets/licensed sources you deride because of your difficulty reading them only undermines your point further.

Yes, unlike you, who likely tries to wear gum and chew your shoes without adult supervision.

Of course, sure, absolutely. I believe you.

I literally used that adjective to describe what happened to her... on Thursday. You'd know that... if you engaged in good faith or could read and spell words without difficulty.

The film and lore treat the idea of Palpatine literally being all the Sith with ambiguity and depict the Dyad as merely restoring his body. As far as the rest is concerned, I've taken no issue with the notion that Rey + all the Jedi is as or more powerful than Sheev, merely the idea that Rey herself is.

No one denies that Jedi have certain abilities Sith lack and vice versa. The question is whether those abilities make Jedi more powerful than the Sith. Rey requires assistance from the power and spirits of Jedi past to defeat Sheev, against whom she is otherwise helpless, so she is not more powerful than he is.

Your reading comprehension leaves as much to be desired as your capacity for film analysis. I'm happy to reference these sources as they further prove my point, but I don't care that you seemingly need them to confirm plainly depicted on screen events or that you personally disdain them for so doing. Your personal disdain for them is irrelevant to me. Hence why I say no one cares.

*empirically
What we've established (among other things, including your relative illiteracy and refusal to watch this movie in its entirey) is that I'm uninterested in your attempts to change the criteria for what defines "power" mid-conversation.

Ben and Rey share this ability, but yes.

lightning*
And her ability to do so is literally orders of magnitude weaker than Grandpa's.

She has the ability to Force heal injuries and fatal wounds in others. Whether that's more useful than Force lightning* is subjective; depending entirely on the context and goals of the user.

Sheev, who has no interest in healing others, would probably find the ability to zap orbital starfleets more useful.

Not particularly useful in a fight or battle, but yes, a cool mystical trait.

Yes, she can summon the power of every Jedi who ever lived. When that happens, she's does the Star Wars equivalent of going Avatar-mode as in the Last Airbender franchise.

Whether she can do this reliably on command is a matter of debate, since she was unable to do so throughout the film until the very end. The film and its dialogue suggest spirits of past Jedi likely have to cooperate and answer her calls, hence why she failed to achieve this until the end.

He can channel his spirit into clones and other Force users, a power Rey does not demonstrate.

An appropriately Sith analog to the Jedi healing technique demonstrated by Rey and Ben. Whereas they can freely give their lifeforce to heal others but not themselves, Sith can forcibly take lifeforce from others to heal themselves but not others. It's poetic in an otherwise clumsy movie.

Palpatine* may be all the Sith literally, we don't know.

Because each ship is a planet killer and he has a fleet of them, which allows for exponentially greater power projection than simply zapping a fleet out of the air from a fixed location.

Force Drip, the ultimate sartorial power. The dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural... and all that.

Did you mean rapid or rabid?
Anyway, your chronic Good Faith allergy regrettably has continued to progress. I'm hoping we can treat it to manage your condition accordingly.

I'd recommend watching the movie in its entirety, perhaps purchase a Hooked-On-Phonics subscription to shore up your reading struggles, and embrace the fact that Rey is no match for Sheev alone as depicted on screen and confirmed by multiple licensed sources more important than your opinion.

PS - Loved the mutual banter and verbal sparring! It's indeed fun to occasionally throw elbows.

 

Wow. That's a long post.

Palpatine poses no real threat to anyone. Kylo is an imbecile for going on his new master's fetch quest so that he could have more star destroyers, and be the Emperor, when he already rules the FO, essentially rules the galaxy, and no one is stepping up to stop him.

Palpatine announces his return on Monday AM, and by Monday PM he's dead, 'again', and his fleet is destroyed.

It's so beyond anti-climatic or threatening.

 

This debate is sad. No one can win in a debate in which the fundamental question is irreconcilable. IMO, the movie appears to make the mistake of confusing the essential metaphor of the force ghost. The force ghost, IMO, is supposed to be something that actually comes from within. Luke knew Obi Wan Kenobi. Luke was influenced by him in the real world. Obi Wan affected his psychological state with his teachings. And now in death, Obi Wan still lives inside Luke because of the connection they formed. Yes, Obi Wan is part of the netherworld, and can be seen as separate from Luke, but the force ghost represents more of an inner voice than actually being an extremal one. Don't get me wrong. It is external in the film. Obi Wan is a ghost, and he is there. But no one else can see him but Luke, because the force ghost is emanating out of Luke's subconscious.

The notion of Rey wanting to connect with the Jedi of the past, Jedi she never knew....IMO, that's idiotic. IMO, that smashes the metaphor.

So IMO, ROS fundamentally misunderstands the concept of a force ghost, and what it is. And this debate is a result of that. It's irreconcilable because force ghosts shouldn't be imbued with their own physical power. They should only be psychological in nature. Of course, RJ had Yoda create that lightning bolt. But in fairness to him (which is hard because I don't feel he is the least bit fair with us, the audience), I don't think that was such a terrible thing. It was just interesting enough for me to think, okay, that's just meta-physical enough so that it falls in line with what a supernatural ghost might be able to do.

But in terms of Rey using all the Jedi, and conjuring physical power out of it to defeat Palpatine...IMO it has to come from within Rey, but the movie makes it seem otherwise. IMO, it's a conflict with the nine part saga, and since we have several authors coming from different places (and the more recent authors were too STUPID to simply follow along with what the original author had done), the story simply doesn't make any sense as is. We can thank KK for that. It was her job, and her job alone, to make sure that didn't happen.

 

Well to be fair. i think the idea is that all those Jedi are in the force or one with the force. And so her being connected to the force, they could connect with her. Its not out of reasonability to have spirits of the past connect with Rey if they do infact exist in the force.

 

Yes, in fact, if they were going to bring him back in IX, it probably would have made much more sense if he survived the end of the saga. And the point was that evil can never be vanquished, it must always be vigilantly fought against. That would have actually been better for the saga, and for the future of Star Wars, IMO.

No, it's not out of reasonability that someone would come up with that idea, but I would argue that it does smash the metaphor of the force ghost. IMO, it was a perfectly reasonable idea for someone to suggest, for them to mull over, and then to ultimately conclude that it doesn't jive with what's been established. And it's not in the best interest of the saga.

 

I feel like that this point, whats been established is gonna end up being progressed anyway. Which is bound to happen when Disney are gonna keep making Star Wars and expanding lore for the foreseen future. at some point certain aspects are gonna start to get more and more spiritual.

Are there set rules for who can see a force ghost? because if the lore hasn't set those rules. then in the foreseeable future we will see more and more force ghosts.

Creating a universe usually desires a free open sandbox.

 

Agreed. The more different authors there are, the more the rules are going to be expanded on...but it'd be nice if the people doing the expanding actually gave a damn about how what they are doing is going to affect the big picture. Just because they can do something doesn't mean that they should.

Lucas was the rule book. It didn't matter whether rules had been previously set, because he knew the rules himself, and he was the only one who could change them. Now, I would have hoped KK was going to keep the rules, but clearly she is not qualified for that job. So now Filoni will hopefully guard the gates. I trust him more than anyone else.

 

I thought it was a river in Egypt? However, there is much to grief over in TROS.

Again, there's no moving goalposts by me. It's you obfuscating. How many times have you referenced Palpatine using force lightning or force pushing something? That he did those things has never been disputed. [/QUOTE]

We've already established that your arbitrary definition of 'power' doesn't align to the common understanding of the word. Therefore your point it irrelevant.

The more you try and push 'licensed sources' as an explanation for something that occurs in the film, the more desperate your position seems.

And I'm amazed that, when considering I've only watched the film 3 times, I seem to understand the fundamental issues with Palpatine being established as a 'threat' in TROS more than you. It seems like you are out of kilter with the broad consensus i.e. that Palpatine didn't present a discernible threat beyond the banal/trivial. Perhaps you've watched these clips too often (TROS does that)?

Force users have been disarming people as far back as ROTJ. Can't you do better than that?

Where in the film does Palpatine explicitly state that the power of the dyad only works to restore his body? It could restore some of his powers too right? It even gives him a nice new costume (unless you're thinking he popped out to the shops?), so what you state is not correct. Again, you're king of invention. Next.

I think you've spent far too long watching this film with your pants around your ankles... Stop it immediately. Your mother will be very upset with you.

One only needs to watch a film once to assess its relative technical application/merits. I'm not surprised you'd think otherwise, as gammon looks good on you...

And I'm pointing out that what you're 'defending' is a substantial reason for why Palpatine doesn't work as a threat in TROS. His force powers are prosaic. He's doing little more than what he was doing circa 30 years previously in ROTJ... whilst Rey can literally channel ALL Jedi to smite him in an instant. The problem now of course, after all your wailing and gnashing of teeth, is that you can't concede it's Rey's ability to commune and channel the Jedi that is key to her overcoming Palpatine... you want to position it as if she's a passive observer. You choose that hill to die on?

States the person who positions this conversation as 'nerd rage'? You are somewhat the antithesis of argumentation. You redefine the meaning of words, create internal logic where none exists, and use 'novelisations' to defend bad writing/characterisation within a film.

Then, by virtue, one cannot eliminate the notion that Palpatine is in receipt of power external to himself (given he refers to it).

This only serves to underline the poor writing within the film. That the ST (in this instance TROS) frequently have things occur/abilities used, without precedence, means that context is often not given. This happens in TROS a lot. Does it happen? Yes. Do I like it happening? No.

It isn't quite literal though is it? And although I'm willing to accept that Rey is indeed channeling the force of ALL Jedi, it doesn't actually mean anything in terms of what we see on screen. She's literally just deflecting lightning back at Palpatine... just like Mace did in ROTS. It's not like we have any context or exposition about what being All Jedi actually means (although I'm sure you can point me to a comic, chocolate bar wrapper or other)... It's not like we get to see force ghost, Mace, Yoda, Qui-Gon et al. force kicking Palpatine in the shins as Rey punches him out. Being All jedi just manifests itself as more ambient light, and that Palpatine's face is blown apart rather than just melted.

It seems you have a difficulty in not projecting arbitrary meaning onto these things. Why not try some objectivity? Writers tend to pass information onto audiences by being clear (unless wanting to create something knowingly opaque). That line is opaque at best... as he's not restored to how he looked in his prime. Also, "the power of two" implies he's leaching their power... any rejuvenation is, by default, a 'power up' i.e. it wasn't his innate ability to rejuvenate, he needed the dyad to 'restore'... just as Rey needed ALL Jedi to vanquish him. Capiche? These are your arbitrary rules re. how 'power' works, and even when using your rules, you're picking and choosing... Also, why does it restore Palpatine to his appearance after his face was disfigured by Mace? He actually looks younger/more 'human' before he changes. Why doesn't he look more like Palpatine of the PT? Why/how does he get a new outfit if it's only giving him the energy to rejuvinate his cells? Answers on a postcard please...

You posting clips is text book obfuscation... I asked for direct quotes... not scenes where your interpretation is completely out of whack with how everyone else interprets it.

I think we've already established that pretty much everything of 'superficiality', in this particular debate, pertains to your limited interpretation of 'power'...

And still you don't understand that the ability to commune with the dead, and harness their power, is just that i.e. an 'ability'... which Rey uses with aplomb (albeit the 'power' seems to be just better force lightning deflection).

I'm not sure that's relevant. The Final Order and Resistance fleets are the external mechanisms by which the more macro battle is fought (similar to ROTJ).

As per above. Palpatine being All Sith is as relevant as anything in a film that provides little context to anything. And we've already established that Palpatine is not restored (visually speaking) to his pre-sequel version... he should have looked more like Supreme Chancellor version right (?)... which means it presents contrary information which kind of ignores the previous films. So yes, some form of 'restoration' takes place, but by virtue, it's a 'power up'... given he needs the dyad to do it.

Pretty much no one agrees with you... read the room...

I think we've demonstrated that he isn't... and that he adds little to no threat to the protagonists.

I'm not sure my posts contain that many 'spelling errors'... it's more typos as a result of typing on the go... but it's a rule of thumb that the picking up on typos is the last resort of those deficient in the areas that matter. Better a lazy finger than a lazy brain...

Envy isn't a word I'd associate with you. 'Pity' perhaps... for both you and your social worker/councillor...

Your analogy was poor. Rey having the ability to commune with the dead, and channel power, isn't exactly analogous with a phone call... that would be Rey picking up a comms device (SW equivalent of a phone) and speaking to the resistance fleet etc.

I really don't think many people thought Palpatine threw the fight... I know fans discussed it, but that's what fans do... discuss things. What is it exactly in that scene (Palpatine versus Mace) that makes it 'ambiguous' for you???

I evidently watch more films/read more books than you... but did I say that films only convey information via dialogue? Don't believe I did. Key information is traditionally imparted via dialogue... if not, it should never need to be underpinned by a book/comic/pamphlet... because that suggests that the imparting of information (be it visually or via dialogue) wasn't effective.

You don't need to... we hear you, but nobody really agrees with you...

I'm assuming humour isn't your thing?

Keep on projecting. You're a sport...

What happens is that you inadvertently state something... because you seem confused by your own position. You're so enthused to defend it that logic takes a back seat... but credit where credit is due... you're nothing if not a black hole for the light created by 'good faith'.

I think we've addressed that one several times now...

One of the fundamental and philosophical elements that Lucas addressed in his films, was how the Jedi were able to overcome the Sith... primarily due to their ability to retain their identity after death and to commune with those whom retained their identity after death. This is the skill that Rey has, and that she utilises, to defeat her enemy.

And yet it's still more comprehensive and analytical than yours. Ring fence some time to read a book (not a Star Wars novelisation again), or watch a film (not TROS again). It may improve your view on things generally....

To be honest, I doubt you'd be able to reference your place of residence... let alone anything worthy of reading...

*entirety
We've already established that you're unable to focus on the points you're trying to argue. Keep up...

Well of course you'd think that... because your ability to think through these things is quite ephemeral.

Which is probably why the Sith don't win out hey? Maybe that's something that George Lucas was trying to convey in his films? Hmmm... there's a thought.

Which it's why it's her skill, her ability, her power. If ALL jedi could achieve this without Rey, they'd have killed Palpatine by themselves.

Which is ultimately worthless when confronted by Rey.

Which is ultimately worthless when confronted by Rey.

Not really. That's a massive waste of resource, time and effort. Better to simply have Palpatine strap himself onto the front of a Star Destroyer. This is what happens when people make bad writing choices. The film gets so weighed down by its lack of internal logic, it doesn't have the energy to rise its head above the creative viscous.

Yes rabid. Mea culpa. Yes, arguing in good faith has always been one of my weaknesses.

As already stated... I've watched the film 3 times.... that's at least 2 times more than anyone should (it's proven to rot the brain). I'd posit only JJ Abrams and your good self have watched the film more times.

> ... these films are so bad that Rey doesn't even have an emoji...