ST What's your opinion on Sheev Palpatine coming back as the main villain of the Sequel Trilogy?

Let this post be the FINAL WORD in the STORY of PJ's wrongness

Yes, we know, your posts billow with grief and rage, hence your impulse to lash out at everything about the film... such as the fact that Sheev is more powerful than Rey.

You say you don't move the goalpost and yet here you are... moving it as spastically as possible once more.

You claimed Rey could heal herself with her healing powers; not only does she fail to demonstrate that (even when it would be prudent), Kylo (who can also mimic Rey's healing powers) is unable to heal himself (even when it would be prudent).

As Rey herself says, this ability is about transferring the user's lifeforce from A to B, not reallocating lifeforce from A to A to heal oneself. So you're wrong once more, but points for consistency!

We've established that you try to change the context of this discussion as often as you move the goalposts: this tangent began when you disputed the fact that Sheev's zap-zaps and Force pushes and other manifestations of brute Force power exceed Rey's. Then, knowing that this position was doomed, you tried to Motte and Bailey me with a definitional change about Jedi integrity and Jedi spirituality.

But I don't care because I don't dispute that.

It says quite a bit about how you view argumentation and evidence that you think producing evidence makes me look desperate. So to help clarify: in an argument or debate, you should seek to produce evidence for your claims besides appealing exclusively to bitter feelings about a movie you hate. Hope that helps!

I don't care that you don't think Palpatine was enough of a spiritual threat to Rey or the Skywalkers. I'm not challenging that perfectly legitimate opinion. His potency as a physical threat has never been greater in Star Wars canon, and he is more powerful than she in that context.

You're moving the goalpost once again. No one here claimed or suggested that the nature of the threat Palpatine poses to the heroes is any different, merely the scale of that threat. You and I are having an entirely different argument than the one you're having with the version of me that exists as a figment of your imagination.

Regardless, the fact that Sheev disarmed her and Ben casually, kept them immobilized and helpless casually, indicates superior power. They can't beat him in a fight without channeling the power of all the Jedi. One on one, even two on one... they are simply no match for Grandpa.

Again, I understand you haven't watched the film in its entirety, but as Sheev drains Rey and Ben, there's a cutaway to the Battle of Exegol above. When the scene returns to the Sith citadel, Sheev emerges from the smoke in new threads and crane-free.

This is not proof that the Force drain literally changed his wardrobe. As a matter of fact, the adult and junior novelizations confirm that Sheev's robes were changed by his cultists as Rey and Ben lay on the ground.

To answer your initial question: there is no evidence that the "restoration" effected his powers in the film, merely his body. We see his digits regrow, his cataracts fade, and his rotting cloned corpse return to how he was at the end of ROTS and ROTJ.

Both the dialogue and the visual language of the film convey a restoration of body, not an enhancement of powers. You're welcome to offer proof to the contrary.

I think you spend too much time fantasizing about me with my pants around my ankles, though I am intensely flattered. On the other hand, given how angry you get over things like Star Wars movies you've never watched in their entirety, I can't deny that I'm a bit concerned how deranged these fantasizes of yours might become...

Anyway, you didn't address the point so I'll simply remind you that Sheev effortlessly defeats Rey and Ben simultaneously before draining their lifeforce and then, subsequently, effortlessly disposes of Ben alone, Rey's peer/equal. This is evidence of Sheev's superior power.

I appreciate your continued appreciation of my good looks, but please keep a firm grip on this crush so that it doesn't spiral into the sort've toxic grudge you've levied against TROS, of which you've only seen ten minutes.

We probably agree on TROS's technical merits, as I don't think it's a good movie: but some facts are still clearly conveyed in it, such as the fact that Sheev is more powerful than Rey.

I don't care that you don't think Palpatine "doesn't work as a threat in TROS."

You're welcome to that opinion, it's perfectly valid, and I haven't disputed it. The fact that Sheev is only concerned with unlimited physical power whereas Rey and the Jedi are more concerned with the abstract, spiritual applications of the Force is an affirmation of a long theme in Star Wars storytelling and a dichotomy between Jedi and Sith. It fits.

Rey dies in the process of killing Sheev and only makes it to the end of the movie because Ben was in a position to trade his life for hers.

No, I position your intense emotional fragility as a product of nerd rage, not the conversation itself. I cite the film, provide clips, refer to additional licensed source material to reaffirm my superior interpretative prowess. You rely exclusively on goalpost changes, Motte and Baileys, and refusing to watch those clips or read those source material scans.

Afterall, you said above that providing evidence makes me look desperate.

The person who makes the positive claim assumes the burden of proof in argumentation. You claimed Sheev had "all the power" of the Sith, but when confronted with the extraordinary ambiguity of that phrasing and the absence of other evidence in the film, now retreat to "ok well we can't rule it out as possibility!"

This is a tacit concession and I thank you for it.

I don't dispute the abundantly poor writing in TROS.

The context and exposition come from the Jedi voices speaking to Rey before she squares upon Sheev for the final time as well as additional commentary from the licensed sources surrounding the movie. She is harnessing their spirits and power to match and defeat a foe who has otherwise demonstrated vast Force/physical superiority over her in previous scenes.

Mace deflecting Sheev's lightning in TROS is less remarkable because he wasn't a fleet-killer at that time (as far as we know), whereas the iteration of Sheev that Rey faces 50 years later is indeed just that.

I never claimed that Sheev could restore his body without draining the Dyad. He clearly can't. He needs their lifeforce to restore his body from a rotting corpse to the more relatively "healthy" form that we saw at the end of Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi.

The reason I don't call it a "power up" is because it's not known to enhance his powers. All we see is that his body is restored to a previous iteration and have no reason to believe anything else was done.

There's no reason offered as to why Sheev was restored to his earlier, malformed state and not his more youthful one as seen in TPM. Or why it didn't go further and take him back to his 30s.

The new outfit was provided by Sith cultists during the cutaway per the novelization.

My interpretation is the one endorsed by the licensed sources which interpret the film: the novelizations, the website, the various encyclopedias and compendiums published.

You're free to word it however you like, in a contest of raw Force power, Sheev is greater than Rey until Rey receives external assistance. Pick your own adjective to capture that dynamic if the word "powerful" offends you so.

Yes, Rey has the ability... to call for backup against her Grandfather. No one disputes that.

It is relevant because it is a different manifestation of the same theme: both Rey on the ground and Poe in space are initially outclassed and despairing because of insurmountable odds. But then backup arrives: in the form of Ben and the spirits of Jedi past for Rey and Lando's Citizen Fleet for Poe.

Evil is singularly powerful, but it's outnumbered.

He is restored to his pre-sequel version, because the most immediate pre-sequel versions are the ROTJ and then the ROTS version: a demonic looking monk.

It's not a power-up in this context because it's not known to enhance his powers. It's certainly a restoration that required the lifeforce of the Dyad. Without it, Sheev would've still been a rotting corpse swinging from a crane. He was unable to restore his body through his own merits. He needed the Dyad to do it. I don't dispute that.

Again, you're not schooled in argumentation, but I'll point out that this is an appeal to popularity. It's a logical fallacy. That means it doesn't prove the rightness or wrongness of your argument.

I think you're conflating the unchanging nature of Sheev's threat with not posing a threat at all, which are two separate ideas. I'll defer to the fear and despair and anxiety Sheev's return causes the main characters, how he ensnares them in traps, how he reveals that he's behind all the woes of the previous films, how he defeats Rey and Ben in combat, how he causes Rey to die fighting him, and how Ben has to sacrifice himself to undo that death.

In the end, Sheev outlives Luke, Han, Leia, the Big Three. He singlehandedly brought down their efforts to restore the Jedi and Republic and triggered the events that ultimately led to their deaths. He ruins their life's work and only by the end credits are we in a position to believe that that work might now stand a chance. Sounds like a solid threat to me! But you're welcome to disagree.

The brain controls the finger; sounds like you know about as much about anatomy as you do film analysis.

[/QUOTE]
Envy isn't a word I'd associate with you. 'Pity' perhaps... for both you and your social worker/councillor... [/quote]

Given that you consider producing evidence in an argument an "embarrassment," I welcome your pity. It would be the height of insults to have your respect.

My analogy is correct. Rey triggers an outcome by harnessing external means. The borrowed power employed is not hers or inherent to her person, merely the ability to summon and channel it.

"I really don't think" captures your style quite nicely. It's been a hotly-debated and contested topic since 2005, with even LFL Story Group official Pablo Hidalgo weighing in on the old StarWars.com website a few years back. Articles have been written about it in official Star Wars magazines, the scene is described with consistent ambiguity in the various databanks, encyclopedias, and reference guides.

To answer your question: the fact that Sheev was able to defeat Yoda, who's Mace's superior, and the timing of Palpatine's disarming coinciding with Anakin's arrival.

You say "evidently" and yet the word's meaning escapes you. Information is conveyed by actions and dialogue on screen. If you were truly the film snob you pretended to be, you'd know that. The opening scene of ANH is iconic because of what it conveys with visual language: the small Rebel cruiser fleeing before the larger and more sophisticated Imperial Star Destroyer. Not a single line of dialogue in that scene conveys the fact that the Empire is more powerful than the Rebels, the visuals do it for us.

I see you're determined to add fallacious appeals to popularity to the bag of tricks which otherwise consists of Motte and Baileys and schizophrenic context changes. I'm pleased that you're seeking to diversify!

I'm assuming making good assumptions isn't yours?

Yes, I have no doubt you'll continue to project. I'm happy to humor you.

Well this must be more than a bit awkward for you. You made a verifiably false strawman about my position and now you struggle to save face when evidence to the contrary is provided. I don't think resorting to outright lies will help your case, but you're welcome to try.

Yes, but it's always fun to remind you of the many, many ways in which you've been wrong this whole time.

Correct and I don't dispute this.

If by more comprehensive and analytical than mine you mean contradicted repeatedly by the film, the source material, and basic logic, then sure, but that's not what those words mean generally. Of course, your illiteracy is the likely source of your confusion for what these words mean in the first place... so we might wanna "ring-fence" some time to start your Hooked-On-Phonics subscription and complete some basic exercises before we return to this.

This is no doubt a sneaky way to try to get my place of residence so you can try to visit, so preoccupied are you with thoughts of my pants around my ankles (as you state above), but I shan't doxx myself here.

I'm not sure it would be possible for me to persistently defeat your points if I were unable to focus on mine, but then we've established that you navigate debate like someone might try to navigate a circus mirror funhouse on an acid-trip.

Oh dear. You can't think of a scenario where Force lightning might be more useful to a Force user?

Oh dear. You confuse my acknowledgement of the fact that Sheev is more powerful than Rey as a Force user as a belief that I don't think the Sith's obsessively myopic views on physical power and the material world don't contribute to their defeat time and again?

No one said that all the Jedi could have achieved this without Rey. It's entirely possible and perhaps quite likely that both components (Rey as channeler and conduit + all the Jedi as the power source) were necessary to accomplish this.

As are Rey's many abilities when confronted by Sheev, except the one: calling on Force backup from all the Jedi spirits. Even then, she's dead without Ben's interference.

It's not, because it drains them and leaves them even more helpless against him... until she calls on the power of all Jedi.

Yes, really. No one cares that you personally find the Sith Eternal fleet a waste of resources. It wouldn't be the first time Sheev and his forces have misappropriated resources into things that ultimately fail: the Death Star, anyone?

The fact of the matter is, however, that each Star Destroyer in the fleet is equipped with far greater destructive power than what Sheev himself demonstrates even in TROS. The Star Destroyers can each literally blow up a planet. Sheev's ability to destroy starfleets is impressive, but orders of magnitude less potent than blowing up a planet.

Agreed, in that you're unable to argue in good faith.

I think the brain rot is only exclusive to those such as yourself who have demonstrated a predisposition towards it. That certainly explains your persistent errors in spelling, reading comprehension, basic logic, conversational consistency, among others.

is the only emoji we need, my friend! This is, after all, the Sheevwalker Saga now.

 

As I stated previously, you're not reading the room. Pretty much everyone disagrees with you.

The problem is that you don't appear to have the intellectual bandwidth. The amount of emotive language you use demonstrates your subjectivity on this subject... and I suspect you don't actually believe what you state.

You can't heal yourself when you're dead you dummkopf... Being killed is slightly different to having a fatal wound...

Engage your brain. When Rey heals both the snake and Kylo, it must be at a cellular level... otherwise the wound wouldn't heal as it does. Ergo, it can't just be the transfer of a user's life-force... because that would perhaps bring someone back to life, but it wouldn't heal a gaping wound in the chest. Again this is back to your lack of intellectual bandwidth... as you take what's in the film as being literally true; when in fact it has little internal logic to it.

You've moved the goalposts so much you're in another state to which you started. Nobody, other than yourself, thinks Palaptine has anything but trite force powers... and what additional force powers he got, he received from the Dyad... a 'power up'....

Clearly you care...as you feel compelled to stalk me. I mean, I should be flattered... but hey...

I'm glad you finally admit to being desperate. About time...

Palpatine didn't have any potency. He was soundly beaten within literally a couple of days of making himself known to the galaxy.... his followers and fleet tuned to dust. That you reduce the criteria/definition for 'power' to his ability to extend his force lightning, is why TROS found its target audience with you... Well done...

That's a double goalpost move from you right there. Since when were we discussing 'scale' specifically, and what would be your arbitrary criteria for 'scale'? The size of Palpatine's fleet? Palpatine's physical height compared to Rey?

Oh dear... it's like I'm explaining this to one of my children. The only thing Palpatine does to Rey and Ben is force freeze them, and then leach their Dyad power (all of this after Rey kills his elite guards in a flash). We don't know if Ben could have force frozen Palpatine first (?).. given Ben has that power too, he should have... that's what I would do if I was Ben facing down Palpatine... but this is what bad writers do when they paint themselves into corners i.e. they undermine their own internal logic. Everything Palpatine does after that... be it using his lightening, force throwing Ben... is after his 'power up'... and 'power ups' don't count do they (your rules)? I've seen the film 3 times and I understand what's going on in it more than you.

As per above, I think we've established that I understand the film more than you (sadly). How many times have you watched it by the way? Do you really watch it once a day?

Pure comedy gold. Keep up the good work

Clearly there is as he has a new outfit and his lightning goes further... Also there's absolutely no logic... rhyme or reason why he would return to a state of disfigurement when being rejuvenated... other than the obvious i.e. a visual throwback.

That's not correct. It's already been demonstrated that it's not just a rejuvenation... and that the rejuvenation isn't strictly a rejuvenation anyway, given he doesn't transform to how he was in (for example) TPM. As already mentioned, you are so blinded to the lack of internal logic that you don't seem able to look past the most literal interpretation of any moment. I guess for you 'somehow Palpatine returned' makes perfect sense just because it's in the film?

No it's just that I've dealt with enough trolls to know what usually fuels them..

As per above... you're repeating yourself... repeatedly...

'Toxic grudge'? What are you on about? I think TROS is probably one of the greatest films of all time... it's certainly the best Star Wars film... and JJ Abrams is probably the most important filmmaker of the 21st century. But even works of genius, like TROS, aren't 100% perfect. It's close though.

A couple of issues aside it's perfect.

Clearly you do...

Oh so now you've moved the goalposts further still (hello Prague) and this is now about how Palpatine perceives his power?

But that still trumps Palpatine right (?)... because he's ashes... and we assume the power to restore life is something that Ben picked up from Rey... so it is kind of about Rey's power ultimately (unless you believe Kylo/Ben already had that ability?).

What has a Norman fortification to do with this? Are you not taking your meds?

You've provided no evidence... you just linked to clips of the film that support my position and not yours. And you are desperate...

He literally states it. It couldn't be any more explicit. You're looking even more desperate now. Maybe if he comes back he'll state he's ALL fish?

It has its moments... in an otherwise piece of genius.

Can you again provide the dialogue in the film that states that??? No? Thought not.

Did you get that off a pamphlet or comic too?

'Not known' within universe? So there's a process/LWI/SOP/manual that explains what Sith get from the Dyad? Can you link to that in the film please?

I'd suggest there's no reason because there's no internal logic... and there's no internal logic because there's no reason...

As I said... comedy gold... did he have time for a S&S too? You must have had endless of hours of entertainment reading that novelisation.

So finally you admit that your interpretation is formed not by the film, but by ancillary material. That's not how films are supposed to work. You understand that right?

I am and I did... aligning to the global consensus of the meaning.

An ability Palpatine doesn't have? An ability that ultimately makes the difference? You're getting there. Well done...

No relevance to your argument, as both Palpatine and his fleet are defeated.... unless you believe the narrative that Abrams wants to convey is that luck always wins out...

In other words; no internal logic to it. One either blindly accepts it (like you), or one has the capacity to see what it's lacking.

If Palpatine needs an external power to give him power, then it's a 'power up'. Without it he's still on a life support machine.

I doubt you've been schooled in anything... but I guess that's what happens when your mother takes you out of school?

No. Those things are not being conflated. That the audience is supposed to believe something is a threat is not the same as the audience actually believing/feeling something is a threat. The consensus here is that Palpatine didn't present that threat. Of course he was *supposed* to be a threat, but that's not the same thing... and was largely a consequence of how he was positioned in the film/ST

As per above... We know that Palpatine (within universe/the film) is supposed to be scary. That's not the same as the writer/filmmaker successfully eliciting a sense of threat and peril in the audience. Tell me you understand that?

Indeed... and Rey outlives Palpatine and undoes all his plans ... well until next time...

Well in your case it would be the strings pulling the finger...

You mean the novelisation evidence for discussing cinema???

You're equating the ability to commune with force spirits, and channeling their power, with picking up a phone. If that's the best analogy you have, then it only speaks to the vapid nature of your thinking.

It's 'hotly' debated because that's what Star Wars fans do. There isn't much ambiguity in the scene. What do you believe is ambiguous about it? I certainly think Palpatine is playing to Anakin's sympathies... but 'ambiguos'?

Did Palpatine defeat Yoda? I'd suggest the film is positioning it as, in terms of force power, them being pretty equal... they reach a stale mate. Of course Yoda not being able to kill Palpatine means he has to run... You seem to have a very basic understanding of these films???

*Pretend
That's another straw man. I never stated that film *only* uses dialogue. I stated that key information is traditionally imparted via dialogue "there is another", "I am your father", "Fear is a path to the darkside" etc. etc. Or maybe you'd prefer that every film was silent, and came with its own free novelisation???

Another reference to Norman fortifications. Have you ever even seen one?

My assumptions are usually accurate... but I at least refer to them as such... whereas your assumptions are your reality.

Humour? No. Amuse? Most certainly...

No strawman from me. As we've already seen, you can't even put a coherent defence forward without invention.... 'oh but that's just a power up'... 'oh but that's not a power up'... 'oh he went and took shower and changed his outfit so the power up didn't change his costume', 'oh but this is my definition of power that doesn't conform to the universally accepted definition' etc. etc. You are ridiculous.... but you're amusing...

Which is at the very heart of what 'power' means in terms of the force... and which is why Abrams struggles to convey peril and threat through Palpatine.

The source material is the film you numpty. You don't even know the basics... which is probably why you're profoundly confused....

More 'useful' than the power to heal or bring someone back from the dead you mean?

The confusion is yours. I think you are slowly coming to a better understanding of why you were wrong.

You pretty much compared it to Rey picking up a phone... so it's that you reduced it to her making a phone call... which is funny and all... but I'm not sure that's what Abrams is trying to convey... and which is why you're wide of the mark.

As per above... Rey doesn't get to use that many abilities prior to Palpatine's big 'power up'... she's frozen before she has chance to take him on.

Of course it's worthless. Rey defeats him. Rey's power up is better than Palpatine's... It's basically Palpatine and Rey fighting with infinity stones.

You clearly do... as you keep responding.

Do we know he can't blow up planets? That's where you're crazy de-railed train of thought is taking you. Is this something you perhaps read in the novelisation?

Ha... you wouldn't know good faith if it pulled up in a van singing 'good faith is here again' over the tannoy...

As I stated... better a lazy finger than a lazy brain. I suspect the only advantage you have is the time to employ the spellcheck (as I'm assuming you don't work)... but this only serves to reflect your cretinous nature, and your predilection for the superfluous over substance... are you JJ Abrams (his mother maybe?)? There are plankton that have higher brain function, self-awareness and a better grasp of logic than your good self... but don't let that get you down... Snuggle up... pull out your dogeared and worn copy of The Rise of Skywalker novelisation, and give us a few more nuggets...

 

Whether canon or Legends, I always hated the idea of resurrecting the Emperor. He, along with everything he stood for, was vanquished in Return of the Jedi. There's no need to drag him out.

But TRoS revived Palpatine under the most contrived circumstances. "Somehow Palpatine returned." It's still hard to believe that was an actual line in the film. Palpatine's return wasn't even foreshadowed. Moreover, they used him to retcon Rey and Snoke at the last minute.

I love the character and Ian Mcdiarmid. But Palpatine should definitely not have been brought back.

 

Palpatine had his story in both the OT and PT… and he was a great character in those films, but he was done. The PT gave him a great arc, which culminated with his death (and Anakin’s redemption) in ROTJ. Perfect IMO. There was really no where else to go. And whilst I think there was potential for a sequel story that used a Palaptine artefact as a macguffin, or even perhaps a race against time to stop him being ‘resurrected’, he really didn’t have any place in a sequel trilogy other than as a shadow, whisper or cameo. It was a massive own goal for the ST not to establish, and properly develop, its own original villain. It was also a massive mistake to have Snoke be a lazy Palpatine proxy in TFA. I would sooner have had Maul or Plageuis… or better still the Nightsisters.

 

I would have preferred that Sidious appear as a Holocron Gatekeeper or in a Force Vision rather survive through a clone.

 

His appearance in a holocron would’ve probably been limited to a scene or two, is Duel of the Fates is anything to go by. But it would’ve been cool if the holocron appeared more in the movie and essentially allowed the simulacrum of Palpatine to be a character in his own right, interacting with Kylo Ren more consistently either for his benefit or not. Honestly, though, I would’ve preferred a Snoke holocron.

 

Something that I do think could be interesting is if Palpatine didn't really return, but the characters are meant to think he had returned. Like in Legends, four Royal Guards used a series of recordings and props to scam the galaxy into thinking that Palpatine had returned to rule the Second Imperium. Imagine something like that. The Sith Eternal had spent decades trying to resurrect Palpatine and Sith, but after countless failures they decided to instead fake Palpatine's return with the message that was heard before the events of Episode 9, scaring people into thinking that Palpatine was back and using that fear to their advantage. But in reality, Palpatine is still dead. The Sith are still dead. It's just a few remaining followers and scholars trying to cling to a dead religion.

 

My thinking was that Kylo would ask the holocron who Snoke is and the holocron would explain that Sidious created Snoke to activate if Sidious were to die and gave Snoke some Force training.

I feel like a Holocron would be a good way to make it feel like the Sequel Trilogy takes place in the future of the universe that the Prequel and Original Trilogies happened in rather than a knock-off universe.

 

I wish Luke had been resurrected and then dueled Palpatine as an tribute to Dark Empire

 

Yes... I think there's enough interesting EU out there that shows that a Sith Holocron could be used well as a device within story. Especially if it's established that there's some form of AI, or force essence transfer, used to create a 'thinking' likeness of the character.

 

I don’t hate the idea in itself just how it was explained it should have been Plaugesis and it should have been in the disaster that was TLJ.

 

The Plagueis theory was very unappealing to me back in 2015. But now that I’ve seen what we got instead, and considering comments made by the filmmakers since then, it does seem more plausible. Snoke looked like an ancient, weakened, damaged vampire. He looked a lot like Count Orlok in Nosferatu, who was himself the embodiment of the Plague. So that could’ve led to an interesting story if he had been Plagueis. Perhaps even something similar to Palpatine’s use of the Dyad to regenerate himself. And it could provide a good reason for Luke to exile himself, to avoid inadvertently strengthening the enemy.

 

I think Plaguies was by far the best option for having a villain that was both able to connect all 3 trilogies, whilst presenting an enemy that could have elevated the nature of the threat to the Jedi/Republic i.e. a darksider that could manipulate the force in ways that Palpatine could only dream of.

 

It wouldn't have made sense for palugies to come back because the audience have only known him from just one-line in rots never again in any other films, and like he would just come back against plaptine so don't think him coming back makes a lot of sense. Yes, you could suggest that plagueis would've deceived everyone, but it was always darh sidious not plagueis who was the manipulator even when he killed his own master. Also, plagueis entering into sidious soul to control him as part of his plan would just been like Michael Myers in the curse of Michael never being the true villain which takes from the evilness of Michael.

 

And it doesn't make sense for it to be Palpatine because Palpatine has already died at the end of a trilogy as the conclusion to a story and character arc.

If Palpatine's not there he wouldn't come back against Palpatine.

 

this entire last part of what your saying dosen't make sense. then why did George bring back maul hm? Yes as an arc but not like the end of his character like orchurimura in naurto lol he literally comes back several times so

 

lol i see what you mean with if sentence now yeah, he would lol literally plaptine killed him and why wait that long it wouldn't have made sense

 

The Plagueis theory is that it would’ve turned out Snoke was him, not that he would’ve shown up as a separate character or at the same time as a resurrected Palpatine. So it would mean no more Palpatine after Episode 6, just a very damaged Plagueis as Snoke. As for why he would not return until then… well, because Palpatine nearly killed him (or actually did kill him), and he would’ve been waiting for the right time to come back.

Honestly that’s pretty similar to Maul’s return, except his survival was already depicted in animation and the audience is already familiar with him. But they didn’t want to bring back Maul, so that was that. Explaining Plagueis wouldn’t be difficult, they’d just need to say he was the being who trained Palpatine, was thought to have been destroyed by Palpatine, and was rumored to have the knowledge to cheat death.

 

He could also have possessed more knowledge that Palpatine never acquired. Like an ancient secret of the Jedi and the Sith that turns everything on its head and makes the heroes question what they've been taught to believe.
That could've made him a worthwhile villain.

 

I think if Ben is an idiot, then you could say Anakin is an idiot too... then we could just say the family are all idiots and be done with it. Because if that's a degree that makes him an idiot... then they all suffer from that.

And really Ben Solo did not overcome his "influence" in the movie. Infact the game they played was fairly spot on for dark siders. One has the power, the other to desire it. Meaning Kylo agreed to do what Palpatine wanted in return for the power. But Kylo was also planning against Palpatine. Bit like the game Force Unleashed. Now people would say he was an idiot for just not killing Palpatine... well in that case that puts alot of sith or dark sider related relationships into question. Because that's how most of them work.

As for Palpatine bein self-defeating. I think that makes him look the same way in ROTJ in that case, Because he was telling Luke straight up to kill him. With really the only thing holding Luke back was Vader stopping him just in time. Which if that was in the ST it would be considered incredibly dumb because Vader may not have stopped him.

Now Palpatines plan is a little messy. But that's got nothing to do with Ben. Thats all there to explain why Rey is important. But its quite clear they did not want to go the direction of suggesting Rey could turn to the dark side, so they came up with body swapping.

 

The Plagueis thing could have worked IF:

A: TFA- Snoke doesn't actually exist yet. His hologram-ness is an illusion. He's not corporeal yet. Plagueis died, just as Palpatine referred to, and hasn't retained immortality and isn't a Force Ghost. Plagueis uses the name Snoke (perhaps his real name) because he's no longer a Sith, he's something far worse.

B: TLJ- When Kylo goes to Snoke to complete his training, his set up in TFA, that's when Snoke reveals who he really is. Kylo goes to the Sith Homeworld, Exogol, enters some grand room, a shrine, something, and holo-Snoke tells him the legend. He tells him that he achieved what the Chosen One and his apprentice could not; become immortal. The clincher is, is that when Plagueis died, he became trapped in this shrine. This place. The only way out is to merge with a powerful enough host. That was originally supposed to be the Chosen One. That's what he wanted to create Anakin to do. That was his plan all along, until he was betrayed by Palpatine. The overconfident fool.

C: Realizing this, Kylo can now become what Vader could not. Immortal. Powerful. Master. Ruler of the galaxy. Etc. (And this sorta captures how Han warned his son that Snoke would throw him away once he didn't need him anymore). Kylo then merges with Plagueis, but unfortunately it's a trap. Maybe Ben's spirit gets locked into the shrine or is in the body along with Plagueis but isn't in control. Or something along those lines. Maybe while in the shrine he actually meets Ghost Anakin, I don't know. There's room for playful stuff.

Since the ST writers wanted to deal with possession anyway, why not go for the one who was already being tempted by darkness and wanted to be better than his grandpa. That's not Rey. Never was. Do that story where it makes sense.

D: TROS then becomes a story to save Ben and irradiate Plagueis forever. It's not a redemption tale. And then the ST becomes about Palpatine's entire legacy. His choices from the very beginning and how it's unleashed so much evil onto the galaxy, and how the Skywalkers were part of that plan, and how they finally cleaned it all up.

 

That's a cool story. I like it!

 

Maul didn't die as the conclusion to a character arc or a longrunning story arc. Palpatine has already died in both of those. His character has no meaning to be brought back after the conclusion of the overall story and character arc within the PT and OT.