CT When Did The Empire Strikes Back Become So Revered?

Basically, when did The Empire Strikes Back achieve its iconic status as the standard for Star Wars films and sequels alike? I ask this more as a way to find out around when the original Star Wars was dethroned, and Empire then became accepted as the best Star Wars film.

It seems almost revisionist to downplay the impact of the original Star Wars when talking about the greatness of its sequel, and it seems like Empire wasn't always elevated to the same heights as the original. Though by the time of Return of the Jedi, it was clear that that film was not received as well as the previous two. And so forth for all the films, but I recall hype for Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens also garnered favorable comparisons to Empire.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it seemed to be around the mid to late-90s with the internet. Opinions spread faster, and consensuses are formed amongst likeminded groups. From there, you get people that hop on a bandwagon by just accepting something as fact.

 

Wasn't there a similar thread somwhere in here about why Empire is considered the best?

 

Probably. This is more about the "when" though

 

I saw it in the theater in 1980 and immediately loved it more than Star Wars. Which was my favorite movie ever. I was 11. It just seemed so emotional. Jedi was a huge letdown for me at the time but I have grown to love it. But Empire is just perfect. I never tire of it. The only thing I recall people not liking is the cliffhanger ending.

 

I'd say it was the early 90's, around the time of Mallrats and Clerks, when "my generation" (born in 70 to 75, saw them on the big screen, watched the Holiday Special and grew up on Kenner merchandise) began to mature. Gone was our love of Ewoks and Jabba's puppets, and we developed a new appreciation for Empire. Jedi was my favorite as a kid, but sometime after being raised on "hard action" movies like Die Hard and Predator, I re-watched Empire and was blown away. Very few aliens (and the ones we had were awesome and memorable, like Bossk and Ugnaughts), Imperials Officers with names and personalities, the bleakness of the Hoth battle, Han and Chewie at their best, the Falcon at it's worst (Empire practically made the Falcon it's own character), the Cloud City sets, the best soundtrack, Vader's meditation chamber and the Imperial March, the best lightsaber battle and the best cliffhanger in cinema history... it's unmatched

 

ESB is my favorite soundtrack ever. The cinematography is gorgeous as well.

 

TESB's score is John Williams' magnum opus.

 

When the generation that grew up with it got old enough to confront adult concerns / anxiety? Good question.

 

Completely agree. That and Superman.

 

Personally I think Revenge of the Sith was tops for him.

 

My memory of it was always that it was always regarded as a great film, and at least equal to ANH. I don't remember any negativity towards it, but I was young at the time.

 

I felt much the same way.
I saw the OT upon initial release and after first viewing my ranking was Star Wars, Jedi and then Empire.
But as I grew older I begun to appreciate the craft and talent in ESB and the more mature story told.
While Jedi fared less well, the "cutsey" elements begun to drag the film down a bit.

What I could add that might have had an impact is the release of the THX VHS trilogy collection.
That was in 92 or 93 I think and I believe the first wide-screen release on homevideo.
And the picture quality was a step up.
I was in university at the time and a lot of my friends and fellow students bought this set and watched the films again.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Anything TESB is basically the best for me when it concerns Star Wars.

 

May 21, 1980

 

ESB is style over substance ... I want to really love it because of that, but every set piece lingers on and on. Luke, especially, has taken to wandering, hanging, or laying around everywhere the script takes him. So it's a Valid question, really: how did ESB become revered?

 

Disagree,

Luke is on three places, Hoth because that is where the rebels have hidden themselves.
Then Dagobah, because he goes there to train to be a Jedi.
And finally Bespin, because his friends are there and Vader is hurting them to draw Luke out.
Not a lot of places really and each one is set up and explained very well.
And time, Luke is in training to become a Jedi, not really something that could be done in a coffee-break.
One of the issues people have with the ST is how quickly Rey picks up stuff.
So that some time was devoted to that makes all the sense.

And style over substance? I would say the reverse.
ESB added a lot of substance to Star Wars, it built and expanded on what ANH set up.
We saw the emperor and learned that he could use the Force, we met another Jedi and learned more about the nature of the Force. Vader was developed and a shocking revelation came.
Luke, Han and Leia are all developed and grow from the characters they were in ANH.
And for Mark and Carrie, I would say their acting is better, Harrison was great in ANH and still shines here.
The film takes it's time, it isn't the rapid-fire editing that newer films have.
And it had the big action scene in the first third and had a more downer ending, which was also not that common.

As for why it is revered, at first it wasn't. Less action, a bit more serious, less happy ending were issues that put some people off. It wasn't the usual sequel, which tends to be "The same movie as last time only bigger, louder and faster." And sequels were often thought of as less good than the original.

But over time the craftsmanship showed, the directing, the acting, the lighting etc.
They showed that a sequel does not have to be worse than the original.
This was one of the criticism of RotJ, that is was more "sequelly", another DS only bigger. Another space battle at the end, only bigger, and so on.

EDIT: Oh and ESB ended on a cliffhanger, it was not resolved.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I'm not sure that I can entirely agree with your rebuttal,
but I do like that you gave your response some thought.
You present some interesting arguments, but at the end of the day,
I still feel that the script for Empire Strikes Back was written kind of "thin."
It still manages to capture the charm, the magic, really, of the first STAR WARS.
And best of all, as you say, it's allowed to be different and not just another rehash.

Still, though ...

I'm all for taking time to tell a story, but there's no story. Yoda's teachings are so banal,
and that whole business in the cave adds nothing but confusion and eats the clock.
Even when Yoda uses the Force to fish the X wing out of the swamp, without Johnny's music ...
it's just a very drawn out segment ... watching the ship lifting and hovering and drawing near.
Also, the scenes with Yoda supervising Luke standing on his head and moving stuff ...
we've already kind of seen that Luke can do this on Hoth. What's more the two scenes like that
on Dagobah could've easily been condensed. Dagobah is beyond mythical, and the Yoda puppet
is very well done and believable. But it's just not that entertaining. Stacking stones with magic ...
I mean ... Luke's learning about the Force from this legendary puppet and we get stone stacking
and a total rehash of Ben's most basic teachings on the Force. It could have been so much more!

 

How exactly is there no story?
The rebels are in a bad situation and are forced to hide on a very remote planet while Vader is searching for them and Luke in particular.
Luke is attacked and has to use the Force in a way that we have never seen it used before and then he gets told to go to Yoda to train.
The empire attacks, the heroes are split up, Han and Leia are chased by Vader while Luke goes to train.
Han and Leia manage to evade their pursuers while their romance is developing.
Luke trains and learns more about the Force but also the dangers involved.
Han and Leia are captured, tortured to draw Luke out and he goes, against the wishes of his teachers.
He fights Vader but is beaten both physically and mentally when Vader drops the bombshell, he is Lukes' father.
Luke chooses death over becoming evil and is saved but Han is not.
The film ends on a cliffhanger, they are going to rescue Han but questions are still lingering, was Vader telling the truth and if so, why did Obi-Wan lie.

One of my favorite online reviewers talked about ESB and the difference between complex and complicated.
Complex can be described quickly but it has layers and complexities.
While something complicated is just stacking a number of simple things atop each other.
Ex, juggling chainsaws, in a burning building while there is an earthquake going on. That is complicated.
Vader being Luke's father, that is complex. You can say it in a sentence but questions follow.
Did Yoda and Obi-Wan know and if so, why did they lie?
Would they have told Luke eventually or did they plan to have Luke kill Vader without knowing the truth?
Can Luke avoid the pitfall that turned his father evil and if push comes to shove, can he KILL his father?
A complicated problem can be solved by a series of precise procedures but a complex problem can sometimes never be solved, it can only be managed.

As for Yoda and Luke's training, I think the progression is very good and builds on what came before.
On Hoth Luke manages to pull the lightsaber to him but with effort, later he lifts rocks with much less difficulty. This shows that he is getting stronger.
One interesting thing is that Luke is upside down both on Hoth and on Dagobah when he does this.
The rocks are also there to show the limitations in Luke's mind.
He can move rocks or a lightsabre with the Force because he could move those things with his hands as well. His ship, that is different because he could not lift that with his hands.
But Yoda tells him no, no difference and then shows it.
The lessons are both about control, that either you control the Force or it controls you, in which case you could turn evil.
But also about belief, Luke didn't believe and thus he failed.
A possible callback to Vader in ANH when he choked the imperial officer and said "I find you lack of faith disturbing."

And I also disagree that Yoda is only rehashing what Obi-Wan said, he adds a lot more.
For ex we hear about the Dark side and that it is not stronger but quick and easy.
Which makes it a sort of short cut, you gain power quickly but at a terrible price. And you ultimately shortchanges yourself as you can never reach your full potential this way.
Also, anger and aggression are quick to join in a fight but a Jedi must not let them.
So if a Jedi has to fight, he or she has to be careful to not get angry or even if they win, they loose.
Which makes it very hard for Luke as Vader, as far as he knows, killed his father and killed Obi-Wan in front of him. Luke has lots of reason to be angry at Vader but he can't let that control him.
That is what the cave lesson was about, that the danger of the dark side isn't external but internal.
That if you try to fight what you hate or fear then you could become that very thing.

Are there limitations/weaknesses in ESB? Yes, the budget was not huge and it was Lucas own money so they could not go nuts with Luke flying around shooting fire from his fingers or something like that.
What was in the script and partially filmed was Yoda training Luke to use his lightsabre by throwing a rod at him and Luke should be able to cut it into seven pieces if he was a Jedi.
I also think that the rebel/empire conflict is put on the side after Hoth and there is not much about the overall political situation. The first draft had some of that stuff at the start, that about a 1000 systems had joined the rebels but they were scattered. And Han was leaving to get his surrogate father to help the rebellion as he was a big player in some transport association.
Also ESB sort of pushes the reset button as ANH implied that with the loss of the DS, the empire would be much weaker and could even fall. But in ESB the loss of the DS seemed to have had little impact.

But bottom-line, to me, ESB not only kept what made ANH good, it also deepened the universe, the characters and the story.
And I think that this was what the filmmakers wanted, that it needed not just be ok or pretty good, it had to be great.
If ESB had been just a paint-by-numbers sequel then SW as a whole might not have kept growing.
Instead we might have gotten what happened with other series back then, diminishing returns and less budget for each film. And it might have stopped after the third film.
The people behind the film had to make a follow up to the biggest film of all time and pulled it off admirably.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Quite interesting, its possibly the first time I've seen Empire described as being style over substance. Empire is such an important film to me that I find it hard to put in to words exactly what it is. But I always got the impression that Empire is widely regarded as the film with the most substance in the franchise, making the brave choice of adding more depth to the characters and mythology. All the stuff on Dagobah with Luke and Yoda is expanding on that mythology and at the same time its got a darker more serious tone throughout, much more of a thinking film even. I'm glad they took their time with these aspects of the story instead of rushing through it or making something closer to the original.

Maybe if this film was made today they wouldn't have taken that time and it would be more crash bang. I appreciate that over time the franchise has evolved, people are seeing Empire after the others, all its secrets are known and its not as mysterious anymore. But sitting in a cinema nearly 40 years ago with only the original as a reference point and Empire was absolutely mindblowing to me. It still is.

Stand back from Empire and the genius of it all is also in the simplicity of the story they are telling, yet everything that hangs on that story is worthwhile, meaningful and enhances the overall tale and the franchise a a whole IMO. Its not far from the perfect film.

 

The thing I loved about Empire when I saw it in 80 is it was NOTHING like I expected. It went in different, deeper, darker, more emotional directions. Not to pick on TLJ but it kind of pulled all of this off in ways TLJ did not.

 

For me it was revered as soon as I saw it. I'm sure I remember reviews of Jedi saying it wsn't as good as Empire and was more of a Star Wars retread, so maybe it was around then that Empire was becoming acknowledged as more of a classic? It seems to me that when we got to the 90s and the advent of the constant TV shows and magazine features comparing the best films of the 80's or the best films of all time and the best sequels ever etc etc that Empire was constantly in those lists and has been an ever present since.

 

Just in the sense that not much happens. And when it does happen, not much happens with it. For example, we meet Lando -- wow! -- a friend of Han Solo's with so much history between the two, apparently and ... we get none of that. In fact, all we really find out about him is that he has the position of mayor. He has supply problems. Just before Han arrived, Lando got squeezed by the Empire to play along with their plans. Vader's pushing him. He thinks Leia's beautiful. And we learn that he's going to fly back to Tatooine. Outside of that, there's just nothing there. It's Billy Dee William's performance that makes Lando such a standout.

That's about as severe an argument I'm trying to make about ESB. I'm not trying to tear it apart. Just trying to expand upon what I meant about Style-over-substance. I happen to actually be quite fond of the film. The cinematography, the soundtrack and the costumes are all standouts, to be sure.

At least we can both agree on something!

 

What exactly would you want here?
A 10-minute info dump about Han and Lando's back story?
Han and Chewie are shown as friends and yet the OT never gives much backstory to them.

As for Lando as a character, again I think you are selling the film short.
First we hear about him from Han, Leia asks if he can be trusted, Han says No but that he does not love the empire. So not a friend as such, more the enemy of my enemy.
Then we meet, he starts out as angry but is having a laugh, he flirts with Leia and is overall presented as charming. But the doubt is there and Han even tells Chewie to keep an eye out.
Then C3PO gets sidetracked and blown to bits. Now we know that something is not right here.
Then Lando takes them for a walk and you can tell that something bad is coming and BOOM, Vader.
Lando explains what happened, they arrived before the MF and he had to comply.

But Lando's arc does not end there, he tries to stand up to Vader, that the deal did not include giving Han to Boba Fett or that Leia and Chewie would have to stay on Bespin.
So clearly he is shown as not happy about how things went down.
Then the deal is made even worse and finally he realizes that there is no dealing with Vader, he will keep taking things until Lando has nothing left. So he decides to help Leia and the others and tells his people to flee.

So I think there is fair bit there.
We can understand why he betrayed Han at first but also why he later chooses to try and help him.
We see some of his character, he is charming and suave, he does have a sense of responsibility, hence why he first agreed to work with Vader, he wanted to spare his people. The same people he later warned.
He could have just left and said nothing, but he made the choice to give them a warning.
So self-serving to a point but he does have some backbone and lines he won't cross.

[/QUOTE]

But to me your comments about style over substance sounds a bit dismissive.
And of all OT films, ESB is the one I least would call that.
And the reason why it is so well remembered and revered is because there is a lot of substance. Had it just been a sequel with lots of action and spectacle, then it is possible that it might have faded a bit.

They faced a lot of pressure and expectations and delivered not just something ok but great.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I'm not sure what I'd want, except for some kind of interaction between them that was "meatier," shall we say? We're given this buildup on meeting Lando and when we do, it's just a flash in the pan. That's not to say that what we got sucked. I am absolutely not saying that.