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Discussion Where does Star Wars go as an IP from here?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Future Films - Spoilers Allowed' started by 2Cleva, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I mean, if you want to apply it to all people who display heroic and superhuman abilities, then sure. But typically when people refer to superheroes they are referring to the genre as well, which involves certain things. These things are distinct from SW. The superhero genre is most typically tethered to our world and, whether you like it or not, does involve people in costumes distinct from the general population of their world fighting an encroaching evil. They also have a distinct alternate identity involving the powers unique to them, very much unlike Jedi (or Gandalf, Harry Potter, Hercules, etc, etc).
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  2. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    That's why I asked how superhero is defined. Comic book superheroes are definitely that - they are based on modern ideas.. In stories - since beginning of time, they aren't. Comic book characters are just modern revisions of the classic mythical characters. SW was designed by GL with those mythical ideas from long ago in mind - and he even started the story off that way.

    [​IMG]

    People all remember the GFFA part but don't talk much about "a long time ago".
     
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  3. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I'm sorry I'm not sure I get your point? Yes, SW is a modern myth. It's, however, distinct in style and genre to superhero films.
     
  4. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Point was people balking at term "superhero" when they are talking "modern or comic-book superhero".
     
  5. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Well that's usually how the term is used...
     
  6. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    This is an interesting point, about the "a long time ago" aspect of SW...

    In order to expand the range of storytelling options, and the "genres within genres" that @Bor Mullet ascribes to, do you change the opening to denote time periods within this galaxy?

    For instance do you take the IP in directions such as "A short time from now, in a GFFA", or "Many years from now" in order to explore different beliefs, tech, discovered worlds, etc? If everything is "a long time ago", then how can you reasonably move forward within the SW universe?

    I think that would be an important distinction moving forward with compelling stories and eras...it would open up the entire premise and allow for many avenues to take the IP...

    ...but would that only confuse the GA? Would it be muddled and incomprehensible within its own universe?

    I don't know. But where the IP can actually go from here story wise and world building wise I think is different from where LFL will take the IP to maximize profitability to their bottom line. It's a weird dichotomy to balance.[face_dunno]

    What takes precedent? Spectacle or story? What will defy the law of diminishing returns for SW? What's more important for the IP -- platforms for it to be viewed? Ancillary material? Originality which contradicts the intention of GL's SW? Or should it recycle and redifine itself completely (which didn't seem to work out the first time around with the ST - but that's not to say that it couldn't work eventually).

    I don't know...it's a great question to ponder though, where SW will end up as an IP eventually.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  7. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Why can't it all take place a long time ago? It seems completely unnecessary. I think changing the opening title would be extremely gimmicky.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  8. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Because it's confined to that so called "era"...generally.

    Why can't some of it take place "A long time from now"? Or "At this very moment"? When does this galaxy ever progress? I think it would be interesting to see facets of that is all. How their technology and belief systems moved forward without the whole "a long time ago" label. I for one would like to know the present state of this galaxy...not it's past. I'm a little tired of it's past to be honest.

    Instead of shoehorning crap into the "a long time ago" paradigm to show progress that makes little to no sense, you could actually show where this galaxy wound up.

    It would allow a different take on the material in my opinion is all.

    If you're going to let it breathe, and try to move away from the family space opera aesthetic, it seems to me you're going to have to try new things in a subtle way, not the sledgehammer that these recent films (and I'm not talking Mandalorian, Obi Wan, or Clone Wars TV shows -- just the films) have hit us over the head with.

    But I don't know if SW can overcome the nostalgia baiting of "A long time ago" or X-Wings or Stormtroopers or Death Stars. It would be neat if they could though. But that's just my 2 cents. It's going to be a hard job to make SW fresh, yet familiar going forward.
     
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  9. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I think the entire GFFA all takes place a long time ago. It's like a mythic age in and of itself, even though it looks 'modern'. All the events, the Old Republic, The OT, The ST, the Future trilogy, NJO, whatever, all take place thousands, if not tens of thousands of years ago, in some galaxy far far away.

    To the point where that galaxy may not even exist anymore. Which is like saying, in an Earthly sense, here are the tales of Atlantis. Sure, you could imagine that in a very comic-booky way, that would probably make for an amazing graphic novel, if you chose, but it's not the exact same as modern comic book styles that some are saying LFL should follow.

    I don't see Mando as the 1 to 1 mirror of Iron Man, or Batman. The superhero without super powers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  10. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Well it's not necessary to change the title card in order to shift the eras, for obvious reasons. So it's not necessary in that sense.

    If you're talking about for thematic reasons, to move it away from a fairy tale and timelessness, would be a shift too far away from what makes the franchise what it is (far more at the core of the franchise than X-Wings and Stormtroopers). At that point you may as well just create a new franchise. The idea is that it is timeless in the amorphous past. Knowing the 'present' of the galaxy isn't the point and is a little pointless, since the present isn't something that is set in any case (you can never know where it ends up).
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  11. Darth_Tweakpiece

    Darth_Tweakpiece Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    All good points @DarthPhilosopher & @DarkGingerJedi !

    Not to beat a dead horse, but I think it's not out of the realm of possibilities that in order to fix what some fans consider "wrong" with the franchise, a little creative slight of hand needs to be accomplished.

    I understand the unnecessary aspect of changing the title card, but on the other hand, I just think something's gotta give if you follow me. I think it needs to move forward, or sit on the shelf for another decade without a word so it can become an "event" again.

    Who knows? I for one am all for creative storytelling within the formulaic confines of what made SW great to begin with. I think it can be done. How it can be done while still making Disney a mint is the $64,000 question really.
     
  12. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Why not? I think Mando is exactly that. Not a coincidence MCU Iron Man was started by Favreau.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  13. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Well the EU did it.
     
  14. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Exactly. This is why the title card should never change. 2,000 years after TROS could still be 200,000 years ago in our terms.
     
  15. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Because I think it comes down to tone and possibly mechanics of the story. Mando isn't some one-off superhero, he's part of a larger alien culture. He comes from of a race of warriors who all wear that armor, in different ways. It's not really a costume, per se. He has a real name. He doesn't have another protected identity.

    It's still a serialized adventure. Still modern. But not quite earthly, 'modern day superhero'. Even Superman, who I would say is more closely aligned with this, started off from another alien race, but then came to our world, our time, descending from the heavens to do work in the here and now. That's not really Mando, or SW.

    I understand that you see SW in that way, and I respect that. But I really don't. I think the tone and specifics are slightly different.
     
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  16. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Right. It shouldn't change because the time and place for anything in the GFFA, and indeed SW as a whole, should be consistent. Telling people right off the bat that this happened "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away" is basically a way of telling the audience "don't worry about trying to relate this to anything we know here on Earth, either in our history or in our predicted future, and just enjoy the story."
     
  17. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    And this intro comes from more of a fairy tale set up. A long time ago, in a land far, far a way, lived a princess who.....

    It's meant to capture something long lost, a story handed down the ages, even if it looks modern to us. Whereas comic book superheroes, as we tend to know them, especially by MCU standards, are completely modern (even if a few of them happen in the 40s). Superheroes play in our modern world, our modern time. They save us, specifically. Not people from thousands of years ago.
     
  18. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Exactamundo. Because "superheroes" are precisely a reflection of their time and place. Superman was created to be a voice of hope and symbol of equality for the audience of the time, highlighted by being set in a time period full of crooks, counterfeiters, slum lords, and mob bosses. Same with Batman. He, like the Shadow, dispensed the justice that the common person wanted, rather than using a corruption-filled police department or Judges on the take.

    Myths, fairytales, folklore, etc all take place in an unnamed past (here or elsewhere) that is so remotely distant that we could ideally never conceive of the plausibility of anything in the story. Like 50s and 60s wuxia novels in China. They're set in the "jianghu", a sort of fictionalized aspect of the past involving magic, martial arts, secret societies, and shadow governments.
     
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  19. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Right. Half of the current superhero movies may as well start with "Yesterday in New York City....". :p
     
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  20. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Or. "In the not so distant future", I believe was X-men's go to intro. Which usually always means 4-ish years from now. lol It's still meant to be a reflection of our society, our ideals, our fears, and who we want to save us.
     
  21. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    so what would be an example of a Star Wars character, or film, that is to much like a super hero or to comic booky?
     
  22. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    If a SW character came to earth today. lol.

    Or...a movie that takes place strictly on Corruscant where some guy dresses up in a costume, fighting crime.
     
    Urple likes this.
  23. Urple

    Urple Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2019
    I'm fascinated to read everybody's take here, because I'm sure that Disney & Lucasfilm must be regularly asking themselves a very basic question:

    "What the hell is Star Wars?"

    And from reading these posts, we are an intelligent group of people that all see it in a slightly different way. Personally, I see it as a universe, in the basic sense that it is a physical place with a specific set of rules (i.e. The Force exists, aliens exist, and people drive around in spaceships). Beyond that, getting into tone, themes, and mythological touchstones define specific stories in my mind. But constraining all of Star Wars fiction into things like the Hero's Journey or Greek mythology might not give it the room it needs to stay relevant over the next 40 years. And of course, we fans understand that a novel like Tarkin would never work as a film but does give us that grounded, ultra-dense techno-babble reality that helps to fill in a presence and physicality in our Star Wars universe that epic myths about superfleets and literal lightning Gods cannot.

    I think this is what the MCU understands, and I mention it again because it is arguably the most important thing to happen to cinema in the last 10 years and will be every studio's reach goal over the next decade. I'd be hard-pressed to answer the question "What is the MCU?" beyond reverting to some flatlining answer like "Well, it's a bunch of people who discover powers and throw each other through buildings until the universe is saved." Maybe there are themes woven throughout, but I can't see them. Maybe...friendship? Believe in yourself? I dunno.

    I think the diversity of tone and character in the MCU could be further improved, but you can still see a shift from the relatively grounded action-comedy of Iron Man to the bananas space rock of Thor 3. Not much, but it's there. Apparently Doctor Strange 2 is a horror movie, because why not? Star Wars did it with Death Troopers, and also Galaxy of Fear. Remember those? It's all Star Wars.... technically.

    My point is, the survival of Star Wars in my mind will depend on writers letting go of what Star Wars is as a story, and just start embracing it as a playground to tell new types of stories. It's supposed to be a big galaxy, but Star Wars films feel like a very, very small space right now.
     
  24. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    I have felt before that LFL has wanted to move away from the Jedi since Disney took over. Seems crazy but this is proof they have wanted to on some level.

    https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/lucasfi...rder-to-be-about-bounty-hunters-and-blasters/
     
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  25. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    To me that reads like they're extremely protective of Jedi and want to make sure anyone working on Jedi characters are the right people.
     
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