PT Where's the love for Count Dooku?

Don't forget about the Darth Plagueis novel by James Luceno. There you see a very principled Dooku who still has his ideals. He blames himself for having rejected a seat in the council, causing unrest and undecisiveness. And he is already pondering the possibility of a coming war.

I like when Dooku tells Sidious in the novel: “I’ve half a mind to join your cause.”

Palpatine touched his chest. “My cause?”

 

Yes that's what I was getting at when I talked about Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge novels. He genuinely seems to think the Republic is utterly corrupt and beyond redemption. He thinks the Jedi have failed in their duty. But you can see that touch of regret and sadness that they refuse to see the truth. He genuinely seems to offer them a surrender twice in AOTC and is "sorry, my old friend," in the Arena.

I don't think he was completely privy to Palpatine/Sidious' plan of course in terms of ruling as two, probably replacing old Dooku and so on. But yes genuine principles AS WELL as the power hungry nature.

The films clearly describe Dooku as charismatic and principled. Which is part of the reason the Separatists grow in numbers and rally around his cause. Why in both AOTC and ROTS, capturing or eliminating him is the Jedi Council's/Republic's first order.

I also noted his disgust yes with Grievous' collection of lightsabers. Dooku was old school.

 

Because possessions are a dangerous temptation, not a certain path to damnation. If the latter were true, literally everyone in the galaxy who wasn't a Jedi would be irredeemably evil. But that's clearly not the case.

The Jedi abjure possession and attachment because the risks associated with those things are greater than any arguments in favor of having them. A true Jedi shouldn't desire possessions and attachments in the first place, so why risk it? That doesn't mean someone who has those things is automatically doomed to villainy. Dooku returning to the secular world of temptations is not ideal, but when he was a Jedi he was obviously seen as someone who was wise and virtuous. Clearly returning to that world had (what the Jedi would consider) a deleterious effect on him, as he ended up becoming the leader of a radical secessionist movement seeking to undermine the Republic the Jedi have sworn to preserve. His idealist streak got the better of him and led him astray, and that's a symptom of his renouncement of Jedi asceticism. But the Jedi can't conceive that he would ever become a cold-blooded murderer, because they simply don't believe that's in his character.

 

So there was nothing wrong with Anakin having a pregnant wife then. Finally.

 

@Sudooku
I haven't read that novel yet, but I do know where I can obtain a copy. *adds title to growing list of Star Wars books to check out*

@DarthTalonx
That is one of the things I really like about Dooku's character: his recognition of the corruption and failure of the two things he used to fight for and defend. That and he is superiorly intelligent with his choice of words and his scathing wit. He is indeed very old school and just the medieval feel to his character sets him apart from everybody else.

 

That's not at all what I said. Why do you do this thing where you just duck in, completely mischaracterize what a post is saying in a single flippant line, and then zoom away? It's irritating. Try engaging with what people actually say and they'll get less frustrated with you. I'm actually trying to have a conversation here. I'd appreciate it if you'd extend the same courtesy.

Anyway, Anakin is a Jedi. That means he must abide by Jedi principles. If he wants to have a pregnant wife, then he has to leave the Jedi Order and give up the vast power and authority over others which that position gives him. The fact that he wants to have it both ways shows that he's on a dangerous path. He can have one or the other. He can't have both. Being a Jedi is a duty and a responsibility, not a right.

 

You are talking about him having the Count title. He was born with it, thus when he left he took it back plus all the wealth his family had. That’s not evil. It just is.

 

There was no indication that he got the title back after leaving the Jedi. How come leaves all the conditions that Yoda describes are the path to the darkside, and therefore prohibited for Jedi, no longer become paths to the darkside once someone like Dooku leaves the order?

A person who is strong with force rejecting selflessness and immediately adopts a title. (Titles are meant it to indicate the possession of land/power/wealth.) But the Jedi act as if he should still be considered no threat to the Jedi.

 

@Kaleesh-Cyborg,
I'm sure you will like that novel. It gives so much background though it is not Canon anymore for some peculiar retcon reasons.

@Martoto,
Dooku after leaving the Jedi acted politically at first and he didn't rattle with arms until the Clone Wars broke out. There was no urge for the Jedi Order to consider Dooku a threat. For the Jedi Dooku was just another disgruntled Jedi after 19 previous ones to leave and to sink into oblivion.

And @JKF, it would be interesting indeed to get to know how exactly Dooku got back on his former wealth. Was there any wealth at all when he was merged into the Jedi Order at a presumably tender age? And how did react the relatives he took the wealth from after such a long time? And last but not least: Was there still a family left or did Sidious order his new apprentice to eradicate them all like his own master told him to do with his own family? So many open questions but I don't believe that Dooku's Story line is still that vibrant to Disney, that we will get some answers.

 

I am finding the material that is "no longer canon" seems to be the better material in my opinion. I was a bit irritated when I found Grievous' original backstory was no longer canon because to me, it made more sense and gave dimension to the Jedi-slaying mechanical monster. Regardless of whether it's canon or not though, I guess it's ultimately left up to a fan's personal preference in the end.

Regarding Dooku (or any Star Wars character for that matter) I think well-written books are far better than films because they allow you to get inside a character's head. Books also leave more room to stretch scenes because they are not constrained by screen time. For example, I am currently reading the Revenge scene in which Dooku duels Anakin and Kenobi and it is making for a very fun and exciting read. The duel was too short for my liking in the film (and I'm not a fan of Dooku's death scene). The book keeps shifting from each character's perspective and Dooku's is extremely entertaining and easy to visualize. I am only sorry I have little time to read, so I'm getting what I can in incremental chunks.

 

Well, @Kaleesh-Cyborg, true that, what you said about the books. But be aware of the fact, that even books have their prescribed limits. I'm quite sure that James Luceno, being given the permission and the money, would have given us a Darth Plagueis trilogy even. And I see clearly in other Star Wars books, where things are rushed or made dense, not because the author would be unable to do better.

And for there won't be much alterations in the NU Canon for Dooku and Grievous, there's no risk in adhering to the early EU lore at least for these characters now.

I just two days ago ordered the Star Wars Insider Magazine, where Grievous's backstory in the wake of RotS is flashed out, even though I know this his story roughly.

I'm positively surprised how much love for Count Dooku is still around here.

 

I quite enjoyed Labyrinth of Evil, its one I need to read again seeing as its 13 years since I read it and I;ve forgotten large parts of it. In terms of the films I enjoyed Dooku, Christopher Lee is an icon of cinema and he really adds weight to the role. I liked the idea of him being a Jedi thats turned to the dark side, but as with most of the PT villains I feel he was under used. I know he had to go in ROTS, but could he have lasted longer? I'm not sure. One thing that puzzles me if Palpatine had Maul in TPM, was Dooku still a Jedi then or had he turned to the dark side at that point?

 

Hi @AndyLGR,

Dooku was knighted Sithlord by Sidious right after the battle of Naboo. Qui-Gon's death was Dooku's point of no return after he had courted Sidious for some years, first unter Plagueis's advice, then, after Sidious killed his Master and Maul presumed dead, there was an urgent need for the ruling Sithlord to get on a new apprentice even if he is twenty standard years older than the 49aged Sidious.

 

Yup - though in Legends at least, Dooku is unaware Palpatine is Sith until shortly after Naboo.

In the newcanon - late in the Valorum administration (so, a little bit before TPM) Dooku is tasked with murdering Sifo-Dyas and assuming his identity for communications with the Kaminoans (Sifo-Dyas may have made first contact, but the later stages of the Create Clone Army process, including the recruitment of Jango, were done by Dooku).

Making it clear that Dooku is quite some way into the Dark Side before Maul's "death" and Dooku's promotion to Sith Lord.

 

And there was me thinking that Sifo Dyas and Dooku were the same person. Thanks for the info both of you.

 

Obi-Wan: "They say Sifo-Dyas placed the order 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

So the movie's clear he isn't just a fake person that Dooku made up.

Though in very early drafts, when he was Sido-Dyas - the Jedi Council did say "there's no such person" with it being a modification of "Sidious".

I think Lucas decided that this was just too corny, and changed the name and dialogue to make the person "real" rather than "nonexistent in-universe".

 

Sifo-Dyas is very real and he was very dead in his appearance in Eyes of the Revolution. I know the short story is "no longer canon", but in that story, Dooku gave the lightsaber of Sifo-Dyas to Grievous as a gift and there are a few panels that show his body contained in some kind of burial capsule.

 

@AndyLGR, you made my day with that post. I, shortly after watching the PT, was not thinking that Dooku and Sifo-Dyas were the same person. I thought instead, that Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas, before I knew the whole story.

@Kaleesh-Cyborg, and finally the round goes back to my posting of the previous site of this thread. So let me quote my quote again here to be sure that at least one person in this forum will have some thoughts and even fun with my theory:

 

Very interesting episode. I had never seen it before, but I looked it up on Netflix. The duel toward the end of the episode is awesome. I'll gladly watch that episode again just for that part alone. Dooku's fighting style is pretty cool.

Anyway, I do have some conspiracy theories spawned from watching this episode. Such a pity Eyes of the Revolution is no longer canon.

 

Not a double post. It's been a while since anyone has posted in this thread...*mutters* and it looks like I might have killed it. *shifty glance; hides murder weapon*

Anyway, referring to the 2003 Clone Wars mini series, one of my favorite segments is Dooku's observation and selection of Asajj Ventress. He was a lot of fun to watch in the way of expression and his derision of Ventress and her claims to be Sith, but he states that Sith have no fear and he sensed great fear in her. Was he serious or was he making the implication that she had fear and was not using it? Or was he just pushing her buttons and testing her knowledge of the ways of the Sith?

 

Really? Of all the characters in the prequels Dooku is probably the one who gets LEAST criticized. Oh, I just noticed the original comment is from 2012. Is there a way to delete your post instead of just editing?

 

That line never sat right with me. I think the Sith embrace their fear as much as they do any other negative emotion, and use it to make themselves more powerful.

 

So do you think he was goading her with that statement? I think he was, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

Darth Tyranus is, in essence, a corrupted Jedi. He's taken Jedi philosophy to an authoritarian extreme. I appreciate James Luceno's depiction of Dooku/Tyranus in the novels Labyrinth of Evil and Darth Plagueis.

Christopher Lee was a wonderful actor. Gotta love that voice.

 

He's a fallen Jedi. He has discarded Jedi philosophy for power and tyranny.