Saga Who handles Star Wars better? George Lucas or Disney? (Discussion)

It has exactly the same average audience score as RotS on both IMDb & RT.
7.6/10 & 3.1/5 respectively:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_iii_revenge_of_the_sith
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi

So if you're feeling sad you'd better also shed a tear for RotS.

 

The conspiracy theory was refuted by Rotten Tomatoes.

TLJ has roughly the same amount of user reviews that TFA did but the TFA reviews were more positive.

 

Not refuted in any detail. Not addressing the points made in that article above. Anyway, even despite that the avg user score for TLJ is the same as for RotS. Not too bad considering that's supposed to be the best Lucas SW movie since the OT. So apparently GL's best SW film in recent years is only as good as the "worst" SW movie of this Disney era. At least according to these audience scores, which the anti-ST crowd have suddenly decided are important. Doesn't look like they thought that through very well.

 

@Darth Downunder
So which era is your preference and why?

 

1. Young Lucas era.
2. Disney era.
3. Old Lucas era.

Bcs I like the content produced during those times in that order. The Disney era has the most potential though. If Ep IX & the Johnson Trilogy & the live-action show are good enough then this era will surpass all others.

 

Lucas handled the movies better simply because he was the ONLY vision when writing the overall story, compared to JJ and RJ who essentially wrote their own stories for Episode 7 and 8 and weren't on the same page. Yes, Lucas evolved the OT story as he didn't know that Luke/Leia and Vader would be related in 1977, but he evolved it in a way that still gave the fans a payoff in ROTJ where Luke redeems Vader. The problem with TLJ is RJ was just making changes that he wanted concerning Rey's Parents, Snoke, Luke, simply because that is the way he saw things. There is no payoff, as RJ and JJ played the game of, "It's not my problem now," with plot points where Lucas was always trying to evolve HIS vision.

Lucas got the last laugh for anyone that buried the PT, after this mess called TLJ. I wasn't a big fan of the PT, but I respect the story and the Trilogy continues a narrative for 3 movies. The ST will essentially be 3 standalone movies that don't connect because you had 2 different visions from RJ & JJ.

 

I'm glad this thread was re-opened - but I certainly agree with a couple of other posters that the opening question is a bit too "black-and-white" for my taste...

George Lucas in his 30s created the OT, with the backing of Fox under the label of Lucasfilm, which was quite a collaborative effort according to most accounts. Lucas brought aboard other writers, directors and involved his friends in the industry in the creative process, even though he clearly was the mastermind.

George Lucas in his 50s did almost the opposite with the next trilogy - and in between the SW-movies that he himself conceived or produced, he outsourced the SW-universe to other storytellers without no thorough explanation of his overall storyline.

The Disney Corporation has now taken over the creative and legal rights to Star Wars, but Lucasfilm is still the entity that rules that universe, and has, among other measures, employed a Story Group to give selected storytellers proper guidance.

What is obvious, is that the SW-franchise finally again (after approx. 30 years of neglect) has been given an organizational foundation and structure and that the creative forces involved are provided the resources needed to produce a coherent and cohesive narrative that makes up (Lucasfilm's version of) Star Wars.

It's more or less irrelevant to the question of "who handles Star Wars better" what the public think of the PT, the OT, the ST, the animated series, the EU, the video games and so on - if the end product has no connection to the creator's original vision.

 

That's where I was fooled by Disney as I was a big fan of TFA. Now of course I didn't expect them to have every little detail worked out because a Trilogy can evolve in terms of story and characters. But I thought they had a 'big picture' idea for this Trilogy that would sort of sum up 1-9 when you take a step back and look at them together. The Big Picture of 1-6 was The Rise, Fall and Redemption of Darth Vader, and that is something that evolved through the years as Lucas didn't plan that in 1977. I am not a huge fan of that story because I am not a huge fan of the PT, but I respect the narrative and I respect that Lucas was trying to tie everything together. The ST has none of that, as RJ has admitted that nothing was settled regarding JJ's mystery box plot points when he was writing Episode 8. I don't think Disney and JJ/RJ have sat down once and said, "What is the big picture story we are trying to tell her with this trilogy?" This was all about doing these movies on the fly and hopefully they all work out. That is essentially where TLJ failed for me, and why I really don't care about Episode 9, simply because there is no big theme story this trilogy is trying to tell, it's just 3 standalone movies and they each have their own theme.

 

I mostly agree with what you said regarding the ST and after I saw TLJ 2 weeks ago, reading comments and critics, and took some time to think about it: I really have the feeling that there was no mapped story or theme for this ST... I keep wondering and asking myself the same questions ever since TFA was released 2 years ago: "What story are you trying to tell? What motivates you to tell this story through those new movies? What is the main idea or theme behind this new trilogy?" Unfortunately, after TLJ came out, I still haven't figured out the answer. And I have a feeling that the new generation of children and teenagers exposed to those new Star Wars movies, will find them a little bit corny, without having an idea or an interesting story to tell, just some other pop-culture and entertainment flicks like the Marvel and DC comics movies...

But in order to explore more deeply the main question of this thread, let's analyse things beyond the simple question of "who's work do I like most? Lucas' or Disney's?"

When Lucas worked both on the OT and PT, he always looked into our real world to tell his story and used this science-fiction and fantasy universe to reflect to way our societies work, our contemporary history, mythology, religions, people's behavior, etc...On my part, I think the most beautiful and interesting stories and movies are the ones which took inspiration from our real world, or when they come from someone's own reflection and ideas and manage to move the readers or audience emotionally by triggering some kind of thinking, by making people question things about life, our world and our societies...

Before the first Star Wars was released in the 1970's, science-fiction wasn't really that popular. Since then, science-fiction has become quite popular. I think it's because science-fiction has become a great tool for authors, artists and film-makers to express themselves about our world. I will quote here what Denis Villeneuve, the film-maker behind the movie Blade Runner 2049 once said in an interview when he came back in my hometown, Montreal: "Science fiction can be a way to address and expose serious themes which otherwise, represented in another way, would appear boring to the public's eyes. It can trigger some thinking in the people's mind." (Link to the interview in French: http://ici.radio-canada.ca/tele/le-...denis-villeneuve-blade-runner-film-james-bond )

So this is why in my opinion, when it comes to story telling and creativity, Lucas has the high ground compared to what Disney can do. Stories and movies are a great tool to trigger thinking, discussion, bringing new ideas and therefore having an impact on our societies, and how people examine themselves. With Lucas' background, since he has studied mythology, psychology, anthropology and social sciences, he's the most fit when it comes to tell interesting and deep stories through movies, something that Disney, so far, hasn't match yet with the ST...

I'll post two interviews here when Lucas discusses mythology, story telling and creativity:

 

I'm going to wait to see E9 before judging on how it fits within the Saga.

 

I just don't see how Episode 9 story can bring the Trilogy and the Saga together and give one big theme to sum it all up. Episode 9 is essentially rebooting the Trilogy (regarding the way TLJ ended) so they have to reintroduce everything at this point, so the character arcs will be all over the place. What is Rey's arc? Kylo Ren's arc? What is this trilogy trying to say? If the theme is that 'we must let go of the past' as what essentially TLJ is trying to say, how does that fit with 1-6?

That is where Lucas doesn't get enough credit for atleast writing his story with one big theme in mind when you take a step back and look at it. I've been critical of elements of the PT, but the story does work in what Lucas is trying to portray about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker 1-6. I honestly don't know what story the ST is telling in that respect, and I really don't know how that is relevant to 1-6?

But Disney is making $$$$ off these movies, so I honestly don't think they really care about what we are discussing. That is sort of why I have checked out of the modern blockbuster, because they care more about wowing fans then the story and characters in some respects. Star Wars is one of the few modern blockbusters I still care about simply because they delved into those big picture themes that Comic Book movies and Action movies just don't even bother with. But the ST has sort of fallen into that trap and TLJ sort of opened my eyes that what I'm looking for in this trilogy probably isn't going to be there in the end. TFA was about Mystery Boxes, TLJ was about doing it's own thing and trying to be different, so where does that leave Episode 9 to make a cohesive story that has a big picture theme?

 

I know several people who said that the New Jedi Order book series couldn't possibly wrap up well. Then TUF comes in and makes one heck of a successful ending for the series.
Will that be the case here? No idea. Hope so, but not holding my breath. Fully prepared to have to wait until E12 or some tie-in materials make things clear along the way. Rather be optimistic myself. My perception of TFA has changed since the movie originally came out and with the release of TLJ. I fully expect to look at TFA and TLJ quite differently after E9. We are missing a 3rd of the picture.

 

It's tough to speak to story continuity just yet, because Episode IX has not yet been released. Unlike some other people, however, I don't really see any inconsistencies between VII and VIII, and actually did see some inconsistencies between the OT and PT, both overseen by GL. As for quality, the two movies in the ST are far superior to the PT and I think TLJ is even might favorite of all the Star Wars movies. TFA was good for what it was supposed to do, and nothing more. TESB and ROTJ will always be classics to me.

 

Obviously GL knows Star Wars better than anybody else and I think it's kinda obnoxious to say that he lost his ways as he got older while bragging about "true fans" nonsense, whatever that means, or wasting time to tell people they're wrong to like/dislike a movie. The major difference is really the meaning of the movies. It had personal meaning for Lucas which may or may not line up with others' perception of SW and that's OK whether I end up liking them or not. Nowadays, SW movies are made by fans of the original 1-6 episodes or grew up reading ancillary materials but does that mean they have a better grasp of SW than GL who didn't read most of it? Not at all, they just had a different experience that's all.

 

For me, Lucas. After seeing TLJ, I have no desire to see Ep IX. The way I like to sum up my thoughts on Disney-led Star Wars:

The idea of people other than Lucas handling SW, on paper, an intriguing proposition. The reality otoh, is something else entirely.

 

Yes, agreed.

I think also. After the PT bashing became insanely popular, everyone thought they can make a better SW movie. That, apparently, is not so.

Not that there are no other reasons for me to think that Lucas handles his creation better than LF/Disney, but this is where he wins without question. At first, there was the story of Luke Skywalker. He wants to become a Jedi and that story is very much intertwined with the redemption of his father. So Lucas took that part and made the PT's main story about Anakin's fall so that the saga eventually becomes his story... Not that Luke is not important any more. I feel there are no people with vision behind the ST, just people who want to make new SW movies. There's no strong story, like Anakin's redemption that connects the PT and the OT, among else, that makes the ST an important entry in the saga. After two thirds of the ST out, I know that there's no vital (or any, for that matter) story thread that'll make those movies important part of the saga.

So Lucas handled SW much, much better.

 

Disney should have loosely followed the treatments George Lucas wrote for Episodes VII, VIII, and IX.

 

I agree with you, even if Disney kept Lucas outline just on the most macro level in terms of what story he was telling. There has to be a reason why he was writing 7,8,9 just like the reason he was writing Star Wars in 1977, then the OT, then the PT. There was always some big picture story he was trying to tell that sort of summed up what the point of these movies were about. I don't mind if Disney let their writers move character from point A to point B in a different way, or story A to point B either, its the big picture stuff that is just missing from the ST.

I'll admit that I was fooled after TFA, as I loved the ending with Luke and Rey, and really thought this would all culminate at the end of Episode 9 and really say something about the Saga when you take a step back. Then I walked out of TLJ just utterly shocked out how disjointed it was, and then to read how they are literally writing this up on the fly without consideration to the previous narrative was just disheartening.

 

Disney hasn't owned it long enough to make a comparison. There could be some really interesting stuff in the future like the anthologies. Rogue One was great. Maybe Solo won't be, but what after that? Its exciting to speculate about.

 

They did loosely follow significant parts of it. As explained in this thread.

 

The second sentence is wrong. JJ came aboard in January 2013 and told us that they already decided to go in another direction BEFORE he got on board which is in line with this:
Does this mean GL continued to rework the story with KK, Michael Arndt and the SG after January 2013?

Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
Not sure how you'd read that into that statement.

Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
It evolved throughout 2012.

Do you know when did he stop being involved as a story consultant then?

Pablo Hidalgo‏ @pablohidalgo
He was always welcome to, but by 2013 he left it alone and concentrated on other things

Then Mark Hamill who spoke with GL recently said this:
“What I wish is that they had been more accepting of his guidance and advice. Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.”

Apparently it would have addressed Leia Force sensitivity.

 

None of what you posted goes into any detail. Read through the facts & the timeline described in that TFA thread. It includes dates, quotes & cross-referencing of artwork & it's all from official sources. "Different directions", "vast differences" can all still be true while significant Lucas ideas were retained.

 

The new Visual Guide appears to dispute your assumptions @Darth Downunder .

Also, Mark Hamill in that video above (clearly after your book) states outright that Lucas had something completely different for 7, 8 and 9.

Even the thread you mentioned had the point that the New Republic had something that would make them anything but a pushover for a new threat, as opposed to the pushover they were in 7 and 8. And the new Visual stated Luke would be actually training what would become Rey. It said Luke had emotional issues, not that he completely succumbed to them.

So loosely, no. Barely so as to be superficial, ok.