PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

I think Plapy would've bested Mace if Anakin didn't show up.

 

Same, but not by sword combat. It would have been a monster-esque unleashing of the Force instead.

 

Do you have any evidence or proof that Sidious even sensed Anakin was there?

Similar to this;



Because I don't remember any.

 

Yes. I have several documents hidden away in a submarine under the Arctic.

 

Well, you said ''Plapy would've bested Mace if Anakin didn't show up'', so I assume that ''Plapy'' obviously knew Anakin was there, but I don't remember when they actually showed us ''Plapy'' has seen Anakin there while dueling with Windu, I am just curious what makes you think that.

 

Cause "Plapapus" talked tp Anakin over the Force before the Jedi showed up.

 

eh, that could be just Anakin remembering an earlier conversation
even if the words weren't exactly the same the context was.


And even if he did communicate via the force (which he can. He does it with Kylo in TROS) he couldn't be 100% sure Anakin would show up.

 

Yup, as @The Maverick said, it was an earlier conversation. Even if it wasn't, he still didn't know Anakin would show up or not.

 

If Sidious can use the Force instead to beat Windu, how would it have ever been "close"?

 

Mace Windu bested Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, that's a fact. Even Georgy confirmed it. Palpatine never intended to be kicked in the face and fall to the ground with a lightsaber pointed at him. If that was his plan it would have been a very stupid plan with a lot of holes. Of course Palpatine did win the long game as everything he did led up to him being save by Anakin

 

If Sidious was expecting Anakin to show up, and he didn't, then he would have unleashed an insane amount of Force power, overwhelming Windu. If Anakin chose not to intervene and to simply watch, I think Windu would have been fast enough to take Sidious out before he could formulate a new plan and decide to take them both on.

 

how though?

he was cornered with a lightsaber pointed at him

 

Ok at least you agree that Sidious would've won if Anakin didn't come.

He can blast out Force lightning any second when need be.

 

but that wasn't working

 

Windu was deflecting Sidious's Force lightning right back at him, and Sidious was wounded because of that. Remember how Rey killed Sidious; deflected Force lightning. They learned that from Windu.

 

Only at the time, but Windu was looking like he was becoming overwhelmed to me. I think if Sidious had truly realised 'I'm about to die', the unleashing of his Force would have been enough to overpower Windu just enough for Sidious to get back to his feet. And then, he'd have won with the Force or escaped.

 

Vader:
He will come to me??!!!

Emperor:
I had foreseen it.

That’s Vader, one of the most powerful Force User in history being shocked on Palpatine’s clairvoyance.

He can sense Vader in danger planets away before it happened surely he can sense Anakin’s ship landing....which of course seconds later Mace kicked him.

Wether he can sense Anakin or not he can easily deduced Anakin will show up because no Palpatine means no Padme.

And once he was disarmed all he had to do was Cower to the corner and not fight back until Anakin arrives.

The whole point is this is NOT A DUEL but a STAGED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.

Planned all the way from the Opera Scene all the way to this moment.

Mace:
Come with us now.

Palpatine:
I shall do no such thing. IF YOU INTEND TO MURDER ME, you can do so right here.

Mace:
Don’t try to resist.

Palpatine:
Resist? How could I possibly resist? THIS IS MURDER, You Jedi TRAITORS! How can I be a THREAT TO YOU??!! HELP!! Security!! HELP ME!! MURDER!! Treason!!

 

@The Maverick @Darkslayer
The thing is, as Anakin was entering the room, Sidious did nothing but roll away from Windu into a corner. And he looked frightened, as if he was out of options. He didn't even TRY to see if his Force lightning would work against a lightsaber.


And yet at his very next duel, he didn't hesitate to release Force lightning at a lightsaber-wielding Jedi. After this method supposedly failed the first time.


And just to get things straight.... Sidious's illogical decisions aside, do you two think Mace is more powerful than Yoda?

 

I would argue that Yoda is more powerful than Sidious. The fight was a draw that could have gone either way.

 

So Mace ＞ Yoda ＞ Sidious?

 

Do you think Anakin is more powerful than Yoda? Yoda failed to capture or kill Dooku, while Anakin did that. So Star Wars duels doesn't work like that. That doesn't make Windu more powerful than Yoda, just like that doesn't make Anakin more powerful than Yoda. There are many factors such as lightsaber styles, Yoda is using Ataru, Windu is using Vaapad. Yoda's style depends on speed and it has more acrobatics, while Windu's style is more ferocious, and more straightforward. Windu's style is more suitable for dealing with the dark siders. Vaapad channels the dark side of the user without falling to the dark side. It's a really unique technique that Windu is using. Also the director said Windu is on the same level with Yoda, and Windu could compete with Sidious.

"Knoll says, "Look at this. Mace brought the B-team!"
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."
-- The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

So there is no need for excuses. And they also said Windu's power is on par with Yoda before.

''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.''
Source: Star Wars Fact File Remake #008 (2014)

He is a top 5 Jedi Master of all time in the history, 1,000 years before and after.

Rissa Mano: ''He is a top five Jedi Master of all time for sure!''
Source: Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu #01 (2017)

 

No, Yoda is clearly at a higher level than Dooku. That's why Dooku had to drop a pillar over Obi Wan and Anakin to buy himself time to escape.
Anakin is on par with Dooku. Their duel could have gone either way depending on who happened to choose which exact move at the spur of the moment. There is uncertainty/luck involved.

If Mace and Yoda were dealing with the same intensity of Force lightning, I have a hard time believing their powers are on par with each other, regardless of what fighting styles they use.
This is them before the Force lighting:


And how they responded to it:


Mace was less prepared and yet responded much better. Whether it's because his style works better against dark siders (which... by the way, is the Jedi's top enemy) or some other reason isn't really relevant (excluding outside factors of course, but I don't see any here). It looks like Mace is significantly more powerful than Yoda.
If it was truly the same intensity of Force lighting, that is.

 

you're looking at it the wrong way,

as if the Jedi and Sith were a pack of pokemon cards, with a score out of 10 on power, endurance, skill etc.
Now that works for things like the above, or even pitting comic book characters against each other. Not for Star Wars, or at least it shouldn't.

It was Nick Gillard and the like that started this 'oh he's a level 10' while 'he's a level 8' stuff, the Jedi are not Mutants from the X-Men universe.

The Jedi draw their strength from the same force, whether you're good or bad. Who wins basically depends on location, motivation, and channeling.

In the case of Sidious Vs Mace

location: they were on level ground so Draw
motivation: 'the Jedi must act quickly if the order to survive' vs 'eh I can just activate order 66 at any time. The goal here is to stay alive' so you could argue again equal

Channeling: Sidious was full of pent up rage, Mace was all survival mode, not just himself but the order itself. Pick for yourself who was channeling the force more.

Bonus:
Dueling: Mace whooped Palpy's butt.

And I say this with an unbiased view, Palpy is my fave SW character.

 

Mace would have defeated Sidious, no question about it, PERIOD, end of story. Had Anakin only arrived half a minute later he would have been too late to save Sidious. So Sidious by himself was TOO WEAK to resist Mace. There is no way in hell he could have trusted Anakin to arrive JUST IN TIME to save him. He took a gamble, as I said before. 20 seconds later Anakin would have been too late and Sidious toasted by Mace's lightsaber.... so goodbye Jedi slaughter, goodbye Darth Vader, goodbye Empire. It was Anakin's fast reaction ALONE that saved Sidious. Without him he would have been completely helpless. Mace would have finished him with one single blow with his lightsaber. Had Anakin arrived AFTER that then so what? Sidious and all false hope of saving Padmé would have been gone. MAYBE Anakin might have attacked Mace, highly probably losing. And even if he won, then what? Who would he have had to follow with Sidious dead. Likely Anakin would have given in to Mace and spent the rest of his Jedi life expelled from the order, maybe exiled to some remote place like Luke did in the ST. And who knows if Padmé would even have been interested in him anymore to be with him after all he had done? It was a lose-lose situation for Anakin pretty much from the beginning.

 

Actually, that only proves that Yoda is also above of Windu in the Force. Because the director said that if he can handle the Force lightning without needing a lightsaber, then you are above of that Force technique. But Windu never showed that without his lightsaber, and he was screaming while doing it, Windu was struggling with his lightsaber unlike Yoda was struggling without even his lightsaber. Windu might be a better swordsman with his special Vaapad lightsaber technique against the dark side users in comparison with Yoda, but Yoda is above of Windu in the Force because he can actually deal with Force lightning without using his lightsaber. Yoda probably didn't care much about his lightsaber because he can deflect it without it.


--1:05--

George Lucas: ''Then with the blue lightning bolt kind of thing, that we had from the Emperor that he used against Anakin. The fact that he used them against Yoda but Yoda is not affected by them, that Yoda has come to a level beyond. Anakin doesn't know how to deal with it, Obi-Wan uses his laser sword to stop it, Yoda can actually just use his hand and which makes it much more powerful and say that none of that stuff is going to work on me. So that then we were able to build the sword fight.''
--- Episode II Attack of the Clones Blu-ray Commentary

What was great about Windu that, he still didn't get disarmed despite screaming in pain when he was just using his lightsaber. While Yoda doesn't need a lightsaber to do that, probably that's why Yoda didn't care much about dropping his lightsaber, and he used his own Force powers to deflect Sidious's attack. Windu probably couldn't do that, which is why he was screaming in pain for not dropping his lightsaber, because if he dropped his lightsaber like Yoda did, he would lose to Sidious because Windu needs his lightsaber to counter that technique while Yoda doesn't need his lightsaber. So dropping his lightsaber is not a big deal for Yoda, while it is for Windu. That's the difference here.