main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Formidious, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Dandy

    Dandy Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2021
    you'd think...that Palpatine would be busy fighting Windu and trying to keep alive instead of figuring out whre Anakin was at any given moment, but I keep forgetting, Mace is a padawn skilled novice with a lightsaber against a level million Palps with a lightsaber...

    silly me.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Remember when Vader reads Luke's mind in ROTJ "Your feelings for her are strong - especially for ... sister".

    We see Palpatine send a telepathic message all the way to Anakin in the Jedi Temple "You do know, that if they kill me, any chance of saving her will be lost".

    If he can send messages to Anakin, maybe he can read Anakin's mind just enough to sense that he's "heading for the temple" - and patiently draw out the fight, till Anakin is close by.

    The whole "busy fighting Windu" is because Palpatine wanted that fight to happen - that's why he told a not yet corrupted Anakin that he was a Sith Lord in the first place.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
    Sidious69 and Watcherwithin like this.
  3. Dandy

    Dandy Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2021
    my copy of ROTJ has Luke hiding behind a pillar while Vader was hunting during this bit, not fighting with lightsabers.


    yeah, Anakin was sat down, and Palpatine wasn't engaged in combat, at least the film I saw,

    and was it a telepathic message, or was it a paraphrased thought from Anakin? who knows. I suppose in support for the telepathic message theory is TROS with Kylo and Palpatine.

    possible, yes.
    Does it make Mace seem a weak character? yes
    does the above possibility make for good cinematic viewing? my opinion, no.
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    That book isn't now nor has it even been canon. There's A LOT in that book that was essentially Stover trying to fix holes in the narrative. Stover landing on the same thing you all landed on doesn't mean that was ever the intent from Lucas. After all, if it was the intent, why isn't it in the movie?

    Star Wars regularly treats entire planets like small towns. Star Wars does have life detecting tech as well. Luke scans Dagobah before he lands. "I'm not picking up any cities or technology. Massive life-form readings, though." You seem to want to ignore a lot of established tech in your hypothesis.
     
    Dandy likes this.
  5. Dandy

    Dandy Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2021
    since you edited and I missed this

    of course he wanted the fight to happen, so what?

    I'm sure he wanted Maul to survive longer than he did, I'm sure he wanted to kill Yoda in the senate fight.

    "your overconfidence is your weakness"

    "his abilities have made him arrogant"

    it's a common theme in SW.
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  6. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    How can you say planning is irrelevant when it comes down to the core of Palpatine’s character?

    He has been planning since he was introduced in ROTJ.

    His famous quote that was used in parodies and every movie that tries to duplicate his kind of Machiavellian characteristics was:
    “Everything that has TRANSPIRED has been done so according to MY DESIGN.”

    The whole Palpatine persona is a weak political disguise. His whole shtick is a Set Up.

    He is not a kind, caring, and harmless old politician. That itself is just a set up to gain public support. Palpatine is the Clark Kent WEAK disguise while Sidious is the mighty Superman.

    Palpatine doesn’t have to spell it out that on Round 2, I will take a kick in the face because Palpatine has been planning to be the victim against the Evil Jedi since day one.

    If he wanted to obliterate all 4 Jedi…then there’s really no point for Palpatine to engage in a lightsaber duel. Every scene where Political Palpatine is in….there’s ALWAYS A REASON. From him talking to the Senate to talking to the Jedi to his own kidnapping all the way to this flashpoint event.

    This was his Ultimate Plan to finally turn Anakin and to frame the Jedi for Order 66.

    Nute Gunray:
    Your PLAN has gone as you have promised my Lord.

    Anakin:
    I saw Master Windu try to assassinate the Chancellor myself.

    Padme:
    The Chancellor has been elaborating on the plot by the Jedi to take over.

    Palpatine:
    And the Jedi Rebellion has been foiled. The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed.

    Anakin:
    I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.


    And on and on….those are not coincidental dialogues.

    The moment Anakin turned him down and vowed to find the truth….Palpatine has to make all the lies he’s been spewing become reality.

    Palpatine wasn’t just mentioning that the Jedi are the same as Sith who is plotting to take over just for the hell of it. He just doesn’t say things without any plans to make them real.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
    Iron_lord likes this.
  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Because if you plan to LOSE A FIGHT then you've still LOST THE FIGHT. Throwing a fight on purpose still means you've lost. You can't argue that Palpatine planned to lose and then also say he didn't lose. Those two things contradict each other. That's why I'm saying it's irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    If you "win a fight that was thrown your way" you haven't really won, is the idea.

    "Really won" means no fight-throwing. When it comes to gambling for example, if it's proven that a fight was thrown, then the "bets on the winner" can end up being cancelled because the apparent winner is not the real winner.
     
    Sidious69 likes this.
  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Then based off this criteria neither of them won the actual duel.
     
  10. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Exactly!! Because there was no duel at all. LOL

    It’s actually the final plan to frame the Jedi and to finally get Anakin off the fence.

    Just like his kidnapping is really NOT a kidnapping.

    It’s actually the plan to get Anakin off his mission from the outer rim and to test his skills against his old apprentice and if he is willing to use the Darkside.

    Actual duels in ROTS were Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku, Anakin vs Obi-Wan and Sidious vs Yoda.

    There they have to fight to win or lose. Without any ulterior motives whatsoever. An all out true duel where the winner takes all and the loser takes the fall.
     
  11. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2017
    Just cause he planned to fight there doesn’t mean he wasn’t really in danger when Windu disarmed him. Even if he threw the fight on purpose (letting himself be disarmed) that’s a huge risk
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
    Darkslayer likes this.
  12. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Yeah just like there’s a risk during the kidnapping in the middle of the war where they literally fell and crash from space.

    And just like there’s a risk where he told Luke to strike him down while he was unarmed.

    There’s always going to be risks. But he’s so confident in his abilities that he could overcome them.

    He was so successful in the PT that he became overconfident in the CT that he couldn’t see Vader having the courage to sacrifice himself just to kill him.

    But yet in the ST, they retconned him to EVEN having a contingency plan with Vader’s betrayal.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  13. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    The "ST" is irrelevant to a discussion about Revenge of the Sith.
     
  14. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    If Palpatine wasn’t in the ST then yeah I would agree.

    But he is and It’s important because it showed Palpatine’s power levels.

    It showed he is capable of having contingency plans and even powerful enough to come back from death. It also shows that a handicapped Sidious could easily freeze and absorb the Palpatine/Skywalker Dyad. It also shows how he can obliterate an entire Rebel Fleet.

    But even without Disney spelling it out that he was holding back against Mace in the ST, the whole PT and CT had lots of goodies that showed Palpatine’s true power.

    Like how easily he can obliterate 3 Jedi Council Masters in mere seconds while Mace couldn’t do diddly squat.

    Like how he can knock out the most powerful Jedi cold with his first lightning.

    Like how he was throwing multiple Giant Pods like nothing.

    Like how 3 of the most powerful Sith Apprentices feared no one EXCEPT him.

    Like how the most powerful Jedi chose exile instead of at least finding a way to get that rematch no matter the cost.

    Like how it was shown that Palpatine was 10 steps ahead of the Jedi Council throughout the PT.

    Like how the Jedi Council couldn’t even detect that the Palpatine is the Dark Lord himself while being with him for over a decade.

    And on and on but since some people keep subconsciously forgetting them and only remembering Palpatine’s political facade then ….I’m glad Disney finally SPELLED IT OUT in TROS on how scary powerful Palpatine truly is.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    Darth Chuck Norris likes this.
  15. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Wow this thread is still going on.

    Regarding sensing someone's presence through the Force, we have a few more examples throughout the saga:
    - In AOTC after arriving at the Tusken village, Anakin could sense which house Shmi was in exactly.
    - At the beginning of ROTS after getting inside the ship, Anakin sensed Dooku being around.
    - In ROTJ when Luke and the team were on their way to the Endor moon, both Luke and Vader felt each other's presence on different ships.

    About why Sidious didn't sense Luke in ROTJ, I think he's less familiar with Luke's Force-presence since they've never even been on the same planet before. Vader had much more contact with Luke so they could mutually sense each other.

    For the scene in question, Sidious is obviously very, very familiar with Anakin. He's been closely watching over him for 10+ years. If it makes a difference, even the location is also a very familiar one. Basically, Sidious had 10+ years to practice sitting in his office and sensing how close Anakin is and how far he still has to walk to arrive in front of him.
     
    HevyDevy, Sidious69 and Iron_lord like this.
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Good points.

    Although I think Vader can also sense Luke in ROTJ because he has feelings for him, there is a connection.
    Palpatine on the other hand has become arrogant and isn’t looking at the big picture anymore. In his hubris he is cold to Luke’s presence now.
     
    Iron_lord and Sidious69 like this.
  17. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Sidious can foresee Vader will be in danger planets away ….surely he can sense him the moment Anakin was outside.

    And then like clock work, Palpatine became the bumbling “Clark Kent” politician disguise.

    And in ROTJ, it was STRANGE that he couldn’t sense Luke at all. Meaning it’s an anomaly that for the first time his clairvoyance didn’t serve him well. That is why ….the Skywalker line…is the only thing he ever feared. And then at that moment he corrected and reestablished his foresight with Vader.

    Vader:
    I have felt him, my master.

    Emperor:
    STRANGE that I have not. Are you sure your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader?

    Vader:
    They are clear, my master.

    Emperor:
    Then you should go to the century moon and wait for him.

    Vader:
    He will come to me?

    Emperor:
    I have FORESEEN IT. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and you will bring him before me.

    Vader:
    Yes, my master.
     
    lord_sidious_ likes this.
  18. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    That is not the point. It is not relevant because the people who made ROTS and the people who made "Episode 9" are totally different people. They are basically two different characters. One is canon to Lucas's universe, the other is not.
     
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  19. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    yikes
     
    Subtext Mining and Darkslayer like this.
  20. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    @Darkslayer

    You can do whatever canon you like BUT Disney BOUGHT the rights and technically the ST are canon. They are not different characters.

    But yeah you can disregard some of Disney’s stuff because I also disregard some of their canon.

    But like I said, even if you disregard Palpatine coming back from death or his handicapped version easily freezing and absorbing the mighty Dyad all the way to obliterating the whole Rebel Fleet, the whole CT and PT are filled with Sidious showing his full power.

    There’s a reason that Maul, Tyranus, and the baddest of them all Vader fears him.

    How Yoda went into exile instead of seeking out that rematch no matter the cost.

    And how someone who supposedly could beat him couldn’t land a single blow when Palpatine obliterated 3 Jedi Masters right in front of him. That alone is a great indication of the power discrepancy between the two. And how Palpatine was holding back to finally turn Anakin and to frame the Jedi Order which was set up before this.

    It was a set up plain and simple.
     
  21. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    ^:)^^:)^^:)^^:)^^:)^^:)^ to Palpatine!

    the force itself!
     
  22. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    LOL nah more like he’s the Dark Side itself.

    I don’t have to be a fanboy because none of what I said is exaggerated.

    I’m just describing what was actually shown.
     
  23. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    it's how you have interpreted what was shown on screen, there is a difference ;)
    exactly he absorbed their energy, it wasn't from his own power. He sucked the Dyad power from both and used it. The Dyad (neither Rey or Kylo) were present during the Mace Vs Palpatine battle, so as Darkslayer said it's irrelevent what is shown in the ST.

    Had he not sucked the power out of them, he's still a feeble, hobbling talking corpse hanging on a crane.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2022
    Lady Belligerent likes this.
  24. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    @Dandelo

    Cmon now LOL

    We both and all saw Palpatine obliterate 3 Jedi Masters in mere seconds while Mace couldn’t land a single blow.

    That is the fastest duel in all movies.

    And we all saw Sidious throwing giant pods like candies and knocked the most powerful Jedi, Yoda out cold with his first lightning.

    I mean how can anyone interpret that any differently???

    As for the ST,

    He actually froze them first while handicapped.

    And Absorbing them is a skill. Unless you are suggesting that the Dyad can just give off their essence unconsciously.
     
  25. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    I saw three lemons dressed as Jedi masters who couldn't hold a lightsaber because of rubber prosthetics.
    Mace was probably thinking what to have for dinner, I dunno *shrug*


    if you are talking about the actual duel between Mace and Palpy, it's technically the slowest in the PT.
    The only thing slower is Dooku climbing the stairs with Anakin in the ROTS duel.

    and?

    it was a totally different fight, with a totally different character in a totally different location.

    that's like saying "Juliet won the race with Jane, so that means she is faster than anyone, ever! even Usain Bolt"

    other words, playground logic, you're better than that.


    easily, just read my posts in this entire thread.


    Kylo 'froze' Rey Snoke 'froze' Rey, what's your point? it's pretty standard force power in the ST.

    Sure Palpatine has skills, but guess what, so does every other force user..shocking I know.
     
    Lady Belligerent and HevyDevy like this.