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PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Formidious, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Or, he blasted Mace with very weak lightning that had no chance of killing him, so that he could pull the "I'm too weak" card on Anakin afterward.

    If he'd wanted Mace dead earlier - we know that lightning is powerful enough to send Mace flying out of the window. Yet it doesn't, until after Mace's arm is taken.
     
  2. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Or possibly that Mace barely managed to hold off Sidious's initial full barrage. Look at the strained look on his face. As you said, it's only after Mace's arm is taken and therefore unable to defend himself does he get thrown out the window by the lightning.

    Yoda was initially unprepared for Sidious's barrage, but managed to hold him off briefly until late. If not for the fact that he was on a Senate pod, perhaps Yoda would have managed to completely repel Sidious's lightning.

    Now, I do grant that Sidious was faking being weak towards the end of his initial assault on Mace, but I don't think he was giving a weaker attack.
     
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  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's possible. Certainly Sidious's lightning is powerful enough to deform his own features (that, or the effort of projecting the lightning is causing his features to deform for some reason.)
     
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  4. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Ok to answer everyone's statements here,

    You guys have to realize that this STAGED duel was set up since the Opera Scene.

    He's been telling Anakin that the Jedi are the evil ones and will try to take over and that the Sith can save people from death.

    Anakin while wanting to save Padme from death still DO NOT WANT TO BE EVIL and massacre his whole Jedi Family. He did not believe Palpatine about the Jedi being evil.

    People always forget that Anakin TURNED HIM DOWN and it was Anakin that reported him to the Jedi.

    Lucas said before this duel, Anakin just wants the Jedi to arrest him and try to get the info on how to cheat death from prison. Basically he wants his cake and eat it too.

    Anakin's last words to him before this staged duel was, "I will quickly discovered the TRUTH to all of this."

    Palpatine's last words to him before this staged duel was, "You do know don't you? If the JEDI DESTROY ME, any chance of saving her would be lost."

    And then boom....Anakin walks in to an unarmed Palpatine where Mace was the aggressor.

    Palpatine: Anakin, I told you it would come to this. I was right!! The Jedi are taking over!!

    You can't say All those were coincidences and Palpatine just got lucky that all his words before to Anakin ended up happening.

    Are you saying Palpatine is thinking........

    (that dam Anakin still turned me down and even reported me to the Jedi.

    And I have the clones ready but still don't have a valid reason to that dam senate!!

    And Anakin still not believing me about the Jedi taking over!!

    Man what am I going to do now???

    Oh man the Jedi are here!!! Let me just kill them all.....and then think of a plan to convince everyone about this Jedi Plot I’ve been telling Anakin....oh no Mace got me!!!

    Oh good Anakin came!! Wait this is the answer!! Thank you luck!!)

    Cmon!!!! Palpatine has been 10 steps ahead of everyone in all the movies. He manipulated a FAKE WAR for years....manipulating a FAKE DUEL is nothing to him.

    As for the lightning. Yeah Iron_Lord is right!!!

    His first lightning was to make Mace change from arrest to executioner. He showed Anakin that the Jedi and Sith are the same. Anakin has been on the fence SO Palpatine had to force him to choose.

    His duels alone with Yoda, Maul, and Savage were dead giveaways. From hurling giant pods, lightning that knocked out Yoda to his agility in easily dispatching 3 Jedi Masters in seconds. All gone the moment Anakin walked in.

    Oh it's because Mace can nullify all that.....oh cmon!! Mace had a 4-1 advantage and can do nothing but watch Palpatine massacre his comrades. Mace couldn't nullify that at the time huh?

    And please don't say they weren't ready for his attacks. They had lightsaber drawns before Palpatine ever stood up.

    And please don't say Yoda wasn't ready for Sidious' first lightning. Palpatine was literally saying, "NOW you will feel the full power of the Darkside". How much warning does Yoda need to get ready for that lightning attack??

    As for his face, anyone who ever got hit by lightning ....no one ever got scarred and deformed. Surely if someone got scarred and deformed like that....they would ask for medical assistance immediately......instead Palpatine just casually put on his robe going about his business talking with his real voice
    and his Sidious face.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  5. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Except he didn't since he got disfigured precisely due to extreme exertion. If it was weak, it wouldn't take much effort (and the whole thing is shot in a way to convey intensity, one only needs to see Mace's reaction). The point is that he wasn't afraid to take down Mace in front of Anakin. He pretended to be weak as a last resort, using the damage to his advantage, drawing out Anakin's fear.
     
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  6. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    Okay I'm too lazy to write paragraphs, I'm just going to post two gifs (one of which I've posted before but I'll repeat again anyways)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I guess Sids forgot that he still has Force lightning as a last resort.
     
  7. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Windu won, but he was stronger than usual in that fight. In normal circumstances Sidious is stronger. Which is why he kills Windu's friends and he couldn't save even one of them, he only beats Sidious after getting stronger during the fight.
     
  8. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Exactly!!!!

    He also lost his telekinetic powers and amazing agility!!!!

    Hmmm it's like a different person.....was this even the same guy that fought Yoda, the 3 Jedi Masters and Maul with his brother???

    In The Rise of Skywalker, IF he demonstrates a new powerful Force powers and destroy a planet...all the Mace fans would just say...err..ummmm...well ummm..Only Mace can stop that with his kick and purple light saber like he did in ROTS. And ummm...his Vapaad can take away all his awesome powers and that's why he didn't get to use that planet destroying powers against him in ROTS. Lol

    Yes if you disregard what happened before and after this duel and the actual story of Palpatine in the whole series and just watch this duel in a vacuum then of course you would think this is an actual duel.

    If you disregard what happened before in other scenes then you would also think that....wow...

    .....Palpatine got lucky that Obi-Wan found the clones before finding out the Separatist were preparing for war. Good thing the Clones were ready to dispatch.

    Palpatine also got lucky that Queen Amidalla was off planet and Jar Jar had to propose to the Senate about giving him emergency powers.

    Yup Palpatine is really the luckiest man in the galaxy where outside forces just seem to work out in his favor. Yup that's how people would see it when they just keep skipping the boring dialogues and story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  9. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    In short, I think Mace really did win, but Palpatine had more fight left in him than he was letting on.

    Even without regarding outside sources, Palpatine's demeanor before Anakin shows up suggests that he really is in fear that Mace will undo his plans prematurely, especially after failing to eliminate him as easily as the other Masters.

    I do think that Palpatine was exaggerating his weakness, but Mace really did have the upper hand. I don't see Palpatine risking his death just to test Anakin.
     
  10. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2004
    In the DVD commentary, George simply states that Mace wins and doesn't really go into any details about Sidious throwing the match. Honestly, if Sidious were going to lose intentionally, knowing Anakin was on the way, I doubt he would have let his weapon go out the window. That's a pretty big gamble.
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    He has two - that one, and the one he uses against Yoda later. He may have had the second one up his sleeve for use against Mace if Anakin fails to intervene.
     
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  12. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    So you don't remember when Palpatine risked his life with Luke in ROTJ?? He literally told him to strike him down only to be saved by Vader. Same thing here. Before this staged duel, he literally told Anakin IF the Jedi destroy him then bye bye Padme. He knows Anakin will have to choose. And will definitely choose Padme against a Jedi who is trying to kill an unarmed man.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  13. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Again, GL was simply describing a scene about when Anakin turned.

    He was also was describing how Grevious kidnapped Palpatine and yet never mentions that it was staged. So Is everyone saying you see!!! Grevious and Dooku did kidnap Palpatine and is more powerful than him!! Of course not.

    Ian Mcdiarmid however was asked DIRECTLY about this and he said of course Palpatine was faking.

    And Sidious doesn't need a lightsaber to defend himself. Not a big gamble at all. He literally survived a Death Star explosion!!

    Cmon "The Rise of Skywalker" .....get here soon!!! LOL
     
  14. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    While I will admit that the degree to which Palpatine seeks to preserve his own life at all costs can be confusing, I believe that he knew that Vader would interfere. Palpatine does have foresight, but as we know, it is limited.

    Even if that wasn’t the case, in ROTJ Palpatine had already built his Empire and conquered the Jedi. I think that logically at that point, he would feel more comfortable handing it off to a powerful heir if the Sith cycle ran its course.
    In ROTS during the Mace duel he had yet to do so. So I think that because his goal had not been achieved, Palpatine was more anxious to protect his own life to advance the Sith movement.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  15. Guidman

    Guidman PT Manager and Book/Trivia Host star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2016
    @Sidious69 Be careful with the double posts. Just edit the initial post if it's within 30 minutes of it.
     
  16. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004


    Foresight yes. Limited?? Hmmmm....well At the end in ROTJ yes. His overconfidence did became his weakness. Production wise, ROTJ is before ROTS but in movie character time, Palpatine couldn't be this overconfident in ROTJ without being so successful with his foresight in ROTS.

    That is why, he was never at risk against Mace. He already foreseen it. His knowledge of the future is unparalleled compared to other Force Users in the movies.

    Way before it happened, He can sense Vader losing to Obiwan planets away. So sensing Anakin coming from buildings away shouldn't be a problem.

    All Force-Users can't even sense that Anakin is with Padme....yet Palpatine....not only Knows..but he also knows Anakin's been having nightmares of her dying.

    He was so scary in ROTJ because of his clairvoyance and his success in ROTS is why he became overconfident which him dying.

    But now the new clips of Rise of Skywalker..... Well... I know he faked the Mace duel....but NOW....he might have faked his own death too..LOL

    Can't wait next Friday!!!!
     
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  17. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Mace won the end I know not that interesting
     
  18. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004
    Yeah Mace won if you don't pay attention to the dialogues before this. That's interesting.

    Spoiler:

    Go watch The Rise of Skywalker LOL

    It just shows how easily Palpatine can STAGED this fake duel.
     
  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I could see it both ways actually:

    Mace was one of the best, if not the best, lightsaber duelists in the JO. So perhaps he was able to get the better of Sheev in a straight up physical fight.

    Or:

    Sheev threw the fight because he knew Anakin was coming and could use it to manipulate him yet again.

    The movie makes it, ambiguous, as to which it was.
     
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  20. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    The novel explains very well, Mace gets stronger due to feeding from fear. Mace thought that he was feeding from Palpatine's fear which is why he got stronger, but he was wrong. He got stronger because he feeds from Anakin's fears. Which why he wins at the same time when Anakin enters the room.

    It also makes sense that Windu got stronger during the fight, because at the beginning Sidious is stronger and he kills other 3 Jedi and Windu wasn't able to protect them or stop Sidious.
     
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  21. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    It was pretty obvious Palpatine was holding back against Mace if people just pay attention to the dialogues instead of just skipping through the action scenes.

    Well at least JJ Abrams spelled it out to people who skips dialogues and just say LOOK Palpatine can come back from the dead and even a handicapped Palpatine can Force Ragdoll both Kylo and Rey like nothing.

    Strange he lost all his agility, telekinesis, and lightning right before Anakin walked in.

    I mean are you serious??...the best strategic mind in all the SW movies was like .....”Ok how can I make it look to Anakin and the Senate that the Jedi are evil and are plotting to assassinate me?? How??? Sith Lords??? How??? What should I do!! I have no plan!! Oh no Mace is here!! How can I think of a plan if he’s bothering me now!! Let me just kill him now and think of a plan when he’s dead!! Oh no!!! I underestimated him!! Wait a minute!! this could work!!!” LOL

    Orchestrating his rise to power, his kidnapping, to the war itself ....that’s believable but orchestrating his own assassination and Jedi Plot....well now that’s impossible...LOL
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2019
  22. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2015
    I always get the feeling he was faking/staing it.

    Sure, it's a pretty huge gamble, but that's what he does best. He was kidnapped and threw this fight as a gamble, the way I see it.

    Guy was insane.
     
  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I did still think Mace won and unless we get anything in official canon my mind won’t be change
     
  24. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2004

    Does Ian Mcdiarmid count as official?? The guy who played Palpatine himself who knows the character more than any of us specifically answered a fan about him faking and he said of course.

    What does Palpatine gain by killing Mace before Anakin came?

    Anakin was there to make sure the Jedi arrest Palpatine ..he actually turned him down. Anakin wasn't there to help Palpatine kill every single Jedi. He wants to save Padme but still on the fence in becoming evil killing every Jedi.

    Hence Palpatine's reason for this staged duel.

    Palpatine has the clones whenever he wants since AOTC but doesn't unleash them on the Jedi because he still doesn't have a valid reason to the senate for Order 66....hence this staged duel.

    "Ummm you see Anakin...I killed all these Jedi because they were trying to kill me now join me and you kill the rest."

    Just because we saw what happened in Episodes 4-6...it doesn't mean Anakin will easily betray his Jedi Family.

    He's been telling Anakin that the Jedi are evil....and Anakin still not believing it....if he walks in on 4 dead Jedi then Anakin will have to stop Palpatine.
     
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  25. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I mean it’s close and will make me consider but unless it’s said by George outright or new canon I won’t completely agree