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PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Formidious, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    The fact that Sidious was able to immediately spring into action after Anakin intervened despite protestations that he was too weak to defend himself is certainly suspicious.
     
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  2. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Ok just reading the boards here and WHAT??!!!

    It's now canon that Sidious created Anakin Skywalker through the Dark Side in Shmi Skywalker's womb???!!!

    I'm really not liking that idea BUT if it's true .....then even he can STAGED The whole Chosen One making him pretty much BEHIND EVERYTHING and yet people are still having a hard time that he can staged the Mace duel??? Lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2019
  3. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    It’s not true like at all. The story group has said several times it’s not true. Matt Martin even said if he thought people would have seen it like that he would have told the comic to remove it or something along those lines. So no Palpatine creating Anakin is a fan theory and not canon
     
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  4. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Based on Lucas' comment about Mace being able to take on Sidious and the fact that Sidious looks down upon lightsabers (seeing them as a Jedi weapon), I presume that Palpatine would easily lose to Mace Windu in a straight lightsaber duel. But Palpatine doesn't play fair. He'll always find a way to cheat. The fact that he's willingly to engage in a lightsaber duel with Mace instead of fleeing the scene tells me that Palpatine isn't afraid that he's going to lose because Anakin will save him regardless. If he realized that Anakin wasn't coming, he may have simply decide to jump out the window and escape into the crowd.
     
  5. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent JCC Game Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    In the novelization, and in the Making Of book, Palpatine set him up. The movie gives hints, such as enticing Anakin to come there(that voice he hears in the Jedi Council chamber is not a memory). But it is left with a bit of ambiguity for fans to debate the matter.
     
  6. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    If that is Palpatine manipulating that voice, then...

    it make sense he would pull the same trick with Kylo as Vader's voice
     
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  7. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Hmmm yet Palpatine obliterated 3 Jedi Masters who are council members in seconds while Mace can't do anything about it but watch his fellow Jedi get killed.

    Mace had a 4-1 advantage...surely someone who is great with a lightsaber can easily defeat ONE individual if he has a 4-1 advantage.

    That looks more like Mace was the one who was cheating with a 4-1 advantage. Palpatine with ease took care of Mace's advantage in mere seconds.

    Clone Wars is a canon show and Sidious pretty much toyed with Maul and his brother on a lightsaber duel.

    Please pay attention to the dialogues before and after this fake duel so you will know that this was as staged as his own kidnapping and the whole Clone Wars itself.

    After people watched TROS....some people are asking why didn't Palpatine do that to Mace???? That is a plot hole!!

    Ummm... EXACTLY!!!! It's a plot hole ONLY IF people don't pay attention to the dialogues.

    Just like Palpatine was hurling Giant Senate Pods like nothing against Yoda....yet he lost that ability with Mace....the whole room was his weapon.

    It's because this duel was a set up in the beginning. Palpatine was holding back and was confirmed by Ian Mcdiarmid himself who knows pretty much the character and story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
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  8. General Coldsnap

    General Coldsnap Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2020
    Hmmmmmmmm, I'm gonna go with Windu. It may seem like Palpatine threw the fight, but I think he had a feeling that he would lose to the Grand-Master. I guess it was part of his plan that if he went up against Windu, Anakin would "save him". I think even if he had given it a proper go, he would have lost to Mace. Unlimited power doesn't take you everywhere, Palps, but manipulating the Chosen One sure does...
     
  9. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Ok cool, so we are talking about if Palpatine didn’t have to frame the Jedi and turn Anakin and going all out......let’s analyze this.

    As you can see he was fighting differently against Yoda, Maul, Savage, Rey and Kylo.

    Only Yoda gave him a run for his money while his granddaughter with the help of all the Jedi was the one who finally defeated him.

    What he did to 3 Jedi Masters has never been done. Those were 3 of the finest swordsmen in the council. And he obliterated them in seconds while Mace was there.

    So basically if Palpatine was going all out..then Mace would have lasted just before Yoda.

    “Obi-Wan is as wise as Yoda and as strong as Mace Windu.” ..... Anakin AOTC

    Obi-Wan = Mace

    “To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.” .....Yoda to Obi-Wan in ROTS

    Sidious = Yoda > Obi-Wan = Mace
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  10. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    I think Ford was talking about the technobabble. Same with Hamill. Guinness had Lucas rewrite lines.
     
  11. Eclarr Nosh

    Eclarr Nosh Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2020
    "Upon discovering that Palpatine was a Sith, Mace forms a Jedi strike team to arrest him. While his comrades fall, Mace is nearly successful. However, Anakin arrives and defends Palpatine, allowing an opening for Palpatine to kill Mace." - The Complete Visual Dictionary (2018), pg.27

    Darth Sidious vs Jedi Masters
    Windu nearly overpowered Darth Sidious, forcing him into a corner and holding him at blade point. It was Anakin Skywalker who severed Mace Windu's arm, allowing Darth Sidious to win the fight with a blast of Force lightning." - Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018), pg.61

    Sidious's Transformation
    "As Darth Sidious becomes more deeply embroiled in his plot to control of the galaxy, his changing face shows the strain of leading a double life. When Jedi Master Mace Windu deflects Sidious's Force lightning back at him, his face is forever transformed. The disfigurement further fuels Sidious's hatred for the Jedi, as it serves as a reminder of his own weakness and mortality." - The Visual Encyclopedia (2017), pg.59

    As far as canon is concerned, the answer has been made decisively clear and there is no ambiguity. Mace legitimately defeats and disfigures Palpatine in their duel. Had Anakin not intervened when he did, Mace would have killed Palpatine and ended the war.

    In the Legends continuity, there were a number of circumstances at play and the outcome is very much open to interpretation.
     
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  12. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Well as far as the movie goes:

    If (Character A) tells (Character B) that the Jedi are the same as the Sith, that there's a Jedi Plot, and that the Jedi will try to destroy (Character A) so (Character B) should join (Character A).

    BUT (Character B) didn't believe (Character A) turning down the offer and reported (Character A) to the Jedi VOWING to find the TRUTH.

    (Character A) was an established liar, strategist, and manipulator who was been behind everything but (Character B) doesn't know that. (Character B) just knows (Character A) as a wise leader and a mild mannered old man all his life.

    Then (Character B) sees a hostile Jedi on top of an unarmed (Character A).

    If this wasn't set up all the way in the opera scene or perhaps even before then I would say this was an actual duel.

    But those setups are there. The foreshadowing is there.

    There were always a reason in Palpatine's scenes.

    The staged kidnapping was to find out if Anakin can beat Dooku willing to use the Dark Side and to see if he would abandoned his Jedi Master Obi-Wan. Anakin did use the Dark Side BUT still will not abandoned his Jedi Master.

    Hence Palpatine goes to phase 2 which is putting Anakin on the Council and then The Opera Scene.

    Leading to His Final Phase Endgame AKA this staged duel.

    It was to finally show Anakin that all the lies he's been feeding him are true putting him on a position to finally choose. And show the Senate a Valid Proof for Order 66 and an Empire.

    I ask again; What does Palpatine gain if he killed Mace way before Anakin show up?????

    Palpatine:
    Ummm you see....I had to kill Mace and his Jedi posse for self defense....I know you said you were going to find the truth to all of this but...um....yeah they weren't even trying to arrest me at all...they were really going for the kill....you have to believe me. So forget the Jedi because I can save your wife...lets just tell the Senate....ummm even though I don't have proof.... so I can FINALLY execute Order 66 and be an Emperor. Now go kill all your Jedi Family.

    Anakin:
    Sounds good to me.

    BTW the novelization has Palpatine recording this staged duel. Ready for edit I'm sure.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  13. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Mace kicked his derriére, Star Wars was never about who was the baddest ass. Not even Vader.
     
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  14. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    I think Mace won. Palpatine couldn't predict the future perfectly, and always went with the safest move he could. Anakin was as much a backup plan as a coup de grace. When Jedi and Sith gaze into the future, they see limitless possibilities, some more likely than others. Palpatine didn't know for sure that Anakin would show up and save him until it actually happened, and didn't go easy mode on Mace just to turn set up the final outcome.

    Just my head canon [face_dancing]
     
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  15. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I don't think we'll never know, considering that Palpatine had faked his "defeat" in order to lure Anakin into helping him. Without the latter as a factor, it would be interesting to see who would win.
     
  16. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Well, in TROS
    Palpatine blows himself up with Rey's reflection of his attack, so presumably he was faking his injuries in RotS...
     
  17. Eclarr Nosh

    Eclarr Nosh Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Except we do know who won. In canon, Mace has been proven to be the decisive victor and Palpatine wasn't faking. In Legends, it's debatable.

    The answer depends entirely on which continuity you choose to follow.

    Canon: Mace
    Legends: Mace?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  18. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2019
    By the way, I hope people realize I was being sarcastic when I said that Sidious still has Force lightning as a last resort. Force lightning is really his preferred method of attack. It was the first and last attack he used on Yoda, and the only attack he used on Luke.
    My canon is the first six movies themselves, no supplementary material.

    I'll post the links to the previous threads on this topic here too in case anyone wants to read more.
    Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?
    How planned (by Palpatine) was the confrontation involving Anakin and Mace in ROTS?
     
  19. Eike Starseeker

    Eike Starseeker Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2019
    I believe he was acting when Anakin came.
    But I think Mace was the better saberist, Palpatine was never the fighter, he was more cunning and good with force powers.
     
  20. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Canon in Visual Dictionary which some of you are relying upon.

    Well From ROTS Visual Dictionary :

    "Above Coruscant, Republic and Separatist warships attack each other, after Grievous's MagnaGuards and battle droids have ABDUCTED Palpatine."

    So it's canon then ....Palpatine was indeed abducted and he did not stage his own kidnapping.

    "UNMASKED by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's TRUE FACE is revealed to the world."

    Which make sense since he did not even react or ask for medical attention like anyone who is truly injured. The only time he mentioned it is when he used his face as evidence to the Senate about the Evil Jedi Plot.

    Canon Books written by flawed flip flopping writers.

    I trust the actual movie and the actual actor who is immersed on his own character's motives.

    - Palpatine tells Anakin lies before this staged duel

    - Anakin didn't believe him which lead to the staged duel

    - Palpatine then prove his lies to be true in the staged duel

    So simple.

    What is the whole point of staging his kidnapping????

    It's to see if Anakin is powerful enough to beat his apprentice.

    Same thing here.

    He has the Clones on his side since the beginning .....the only thing he doesn't have is Anakin and the valid reason to the Senate for Order 66 and reason to become an Empire. Hence this staged duel has to happen.

    Fighting differently also is a dead giveaway......From easily blasting Yoda's lightsaber to hurling giant senate pods like pebbles...yet he lost all of his agility and telekinetic ability (where the whole room was his weapon) on this staged duel.

    At half his power as a corpse, he easily disarmed and froze the Force Dyads with ease, easily toyed with Maul and Savage and obliterated 3 Jedi Council Masters in seconds. Yet all that gone on this STAGED DUEL.

    EXACTLY!!
     
  21. Eclarr Nosh

    Eclarr Nosh Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Don't know if you're being serious or what but the RotS visual dictionary was published in 05, long before the canon reboot and is only applicable to the Legends side of the discussion.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It was compiled as a Complete Visual Dictionary a few months ago, for the newcanon. I don't have a copy though, so can't check if that bit was changed or not.
     
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    He was abducted and he did stage his own kidnapping.

    Likewise, Mace did win the duel and Palpatine did fake to be "too weak" later on in order to force Anakin to make a decision.
     
  24. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Well, given TROS, its obvious Mace won.
    Its no-win situation for Palpatine. If he didnt stop shooting lightnings, he would have die. If he did - he would have die to Mace's lightsaber then.
     
  25. Eclarr Nosh

    Eclarr Nosh Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Then the claim is void until you can provide a direct citation.