PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Not really because Mace talks about the courts and the senate. Both of which Mace knew about when he went to Palpatine's office. So that is not new and are not tied to how strong Palpatine is with the Force.
If they were a concern, why didn't Mace bring them up before or why did he even bother with an arrest when he knew it would never work?

I see them as contractionary because that how the presentation of the film comes across to me.
Early on, Anakin has doubts about the Jedi because they ask him to spy on Palpatine, whom Anakin views as a friend and mentor. And Anakin is not really bothered by Palpatine's more and more overt power grabs. Because he sees Palpatine as a good man.
So to him, the Jedi are close to being traitors for this.
However that all changes when Palpatine reveals himself. Anakin now knows that the Jedi were totally right to suspect him. Anakin knows that Palpatine will not step down, will not give up his power and he is the one trying to take over the Republic.
So the Jedi were right and Anakin is totally onboard with arresting Palpatine and he even wanted to kill him himself for a moment.
And he wants to come along and help Mace arrest Palpatine because he thinks Palpatine is very powerful and Mace will need help. So he suspects that Palpatine will not come quietly.

But he is left behind and then he starts to think about Padme and his fear gets the better of him and he leaves. Padme is the reason he goes and the reason he stops Mace.
Anakin says that ne needs Palpatine and he must have the "Stop death spell" and that is the beginning and end of his motivation and justification. He needs this so he will do anything to get it. No matter how many he has to kill.

So him doing all this because Padme, that works. But the film has him suddenly and for no reason agree with the Jedi trying to kill all senators. That does not work.
Anakin knows there is no Jedi plot. He saw Mace try to arrest Palpatine, which he was all for, but then switching to kill after Palpatine tried to kill him. And again, Anakin acted only because he needed Palpatine and the "stop death spell". Remove that and Anakin would not care in the slightest.

From what I know and I could be wrong, but the scene where Palpatine talks about the Jedi moving against the senate and Anakin agreeing, that was part of the original plan. Here Anakin sided with Palatine earlier, he did not tell Mace about it, he had no idea that Mace was coming, he just happened to be in Palpatine's office when Mace and co burst in. So here it makes some sense that Palpatine would say that Anakin had no knowledge of what Mace was doing because he didn't. But in the finished film, Anakin tells Mace and he wants to arrest Palpatine as well so he knew quite well that Mace was going to Palpatine's office and why. And again, he saw Mace try to arrest Palpatine and he also saw that Palpatine was not weak, that was all an act. To try and trick Mace into going for the kill and have Anakin in desperation try to stop him. And it worked and Anakin knows he has been played. But if all he wants is for Padme to live, then he can ignore that because nothing but Padme matters. If Anakin somehow thinks that there is some Jedi plot then it does not work.

@Sidious69

To try and keep this less than a Bible in length. In my opinion based on the films.
Palpatine's plan to take over the galaxy and wipe out the Jedi, did not rely on Anakin is any way. He did not need him for that. Anakain was just a bonus, icing on the cake. Oh he did not want Anakin as an enemy because he could see that Anakin had a lot of potential power and would be a dangerous opponent. So as you said, killing him makes sense.
But Palpatine can not do that as then the other films does not work.
So Palpatine could think "Hmm the Jedi have found their chosen one, the one who will destroy me and all the sith. I should kill him... oh wait, there are several more movies to come and Anakin is alive in them. Ok, I will try to turn him to my side then."
And while I am joking, far too often in ep II and III, Palpatine's plans only make sense if you assume that he has read the script. Which is a problem with the writing.
In TPM, he works. His plan was not for the Jedi to get involved nor for Padme to come to Coruscant but when she did, he adapted and changed his plan on the fly. That, to me, was good. It showed Palpatine as one to be quick on his feet and altering his plans when the situation changes.
But in AotC, if he planned for Jango to use the dart, Obi-Wan to ID them despite all info being removed from the Jedi archives, that he would try to arrest jango and fail but track Jango to Geonosis, overhear what Dooku said, contact the senate and let them know so that Palpatine could get his extra powers.
That plan only makes sense if Palpatine has read the script or he has God-level foresight and knows everything that will happen. To me, not good writing.

So Anakin is neat for Palpatine to have as a Sith but if Anakin does not work, then kill him. He showed this clearly in RotJ. He had no problem with letting Vader/Anakin die to get Luke. And when Luke proved not cooperative, then Palpatine was going to kill him. Palpatine is a user or people and institutions. And once they cease to be useful they are eliminated.

Some comments;

Righteous character? Palpatine knows about the Sand People massacre. He knows about Padme and Anakin being together despite it being against the Jedi rules. And he told Anakin to murder Dooku and Anakin did so with little hesitation. Not sure righteous is the way I would describe Anakin.

The recording is not mentioned in the film so does not matter to me.
As for the seps, first see above but also, it was not needed like that. If Obi-Wan had not found Kamino or Geonosis. The clone army would be ready and the Kamino will contact the senate and Palpatine can then let Dooku know and Dooku makes a big threat, showing his droid army and makes demands. The senate panics, hands over the extra powers to Palpatine, he approves the clone army and the war is on.
When you run both sides, starting a war is very easy.

Mace was not trying to assassinate Palpatine when Anakin walked in and he saw that.
And someone who is not righteous would not care about rights, they would just do what ever they want.
So Palpatine has no right to try and kill Mace but he does not care, because he is not righteous.

So Anakin saw Mace try to arrest Palpatine, which he was all for, and Palpatine try to kill him instead.
And Anakin knows that Mace had three Jedi with him but they are not there now. What happened?
Anakin would likely think that they are dead and Palpatine killed them.
So he sees and could know that Palpatine is not willing to come quietly and he warned Mace about that earlier.

Notice the lines, Palatine first tries with the Jedi plot but Anakin does not act. Then he switches to the stop death spell and how only he can save Padme and how that will not happen if he is dead. He wants to force the issue, push Mace to try and kill him so Anakin has to choose between the Jedi and Padme.
Mace going from arrest to kill is not proof of a Jedi plot. All it shows is that when pushed too far, even a Jedi can loose their cool and go for the kill.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

@Samuel Vimes


CT:

“EVERYTHING that has transpired has been done so according to my design.”


PT:

“He was deceived by a lie, we all were. It appears The Chancellor is behind EVERYTHING including the war.”


ST:

“So Palpatine has been out there all this time, pulling the strings.”

“ALWAYS in the shadows from the very beginning.”



That’s just what the character of the Emperor is. Wether you think it’s bad writing or not it’s what he does.


Yes his clairvoyance can be way out there but you cannot say holding back against Mace is an impossible to plan when you can totally buy into his other plans where he’s not there to actually influence them …like bluffing the Jedi into putting Anakin on the Council, kidnapping in the middle of a space war, and bluffing the Jedi into making Obi-Wan go after Grevious instead of following his recommendation of Anakin. And even for Obi-Wan to find out about the Separatists and Clones.


Having Palpatine setting himself up to be the victim in the first place but then have no plan to make it happen and will just plan it later after he kills all the Jedi only to underestimate them and lose only to realize he was planning to frame them in the first place…..now that’s bad writing.


And yes Anakin is righteous. Killing Dooku and the Sand People which he admittedly regretting is way different compared to killing the whole innocent Jedi Order.


Dooku and the Tuskens were evil and they deserve to die. The Jedi however are righteous defenders hence why Palpatine had to do what he had to do.


Padme is the temptation but for Anakin to go all the way, the Jedi has to be the evil ones in his eyes.

 

Being righteous means you don't give into your primal urges.

NOT wiping out an entire clan down to the children because they wronged you, or executing an unarmed man that you soundly defeated is being righteous.

And the more I think about it, the more I realize Anakin is absolutely dumber than a sack of bricks in this movie. He knows the Council won't accept this sudden request by an outsider to force him onto the Council, yet he acts huffy when he doesn't also become a master, like he's suddenly entitled to it.

As far as Palpatine:

You're telling me his plan for Attack of the Clones also required for Anakin to take an unsanctioned detour to Tatooine with his charge, find his mom and kill the Tuskens to get a taste of the Dark Side? The Palpatine of The Phantom Menace altered his plan on the fly. Here? He just sits there and lets the events unfold. We don't even see his Sidious alter-ego until the very end.

You're telling me his plan required:
- Jango to use a specific dart that a random alien in a diner that Obi-Wan just happens to know can ID to Kamino. For Jango to, y'know, not attempt to kill Obi-Wan and Anakin who were right there to cover his tracks?

- For Obi-Wan to chase Jango and not die in the process (I mean, what do you think would happen if he got blown up halfway to Geonosis?)

- For Anakin to not once grow a brain cell and wonder why this politician knows so much about the Sith and is eager to talk to him -- and seemingly only him -- about it all of a sudden. Darth Plageius? If I were Anakin, I'd immediately go ask the Jedi if they knew anything about a Darth Plageius.

 

Ok I meant righteous in Anakin’s perspective.

Which he was regretting heavily telling Padme that he’s a Jedi and that he’s suppose to be better than that.

But there is a big difference between killing Dooku and the Tuskens compared to the Whole Jedi Order who never wronged him the way Dooku and the Tuskens did.

If it was all about saving Padme then Anakin would have joined Palpatine the moment he said he can save her.

As for Palpatine

There’s a reason why he does what he does in the movies.

There’s a reason why he recommended for Obi-Wan to guard Padme.

There’s a reason why he got kidnapped in the first place.

There’s a reason why he appointed Anakin to the Jedi Council.

There’s a reason why he told the Separatists to invade Kasshyk.

There’s a reason why he told Anakin the location of Grevious and that it was Anakin would be the best Jedi choice to go after him.

There’s a reason why he told Anakin that the Jedi are plotting to take over.

There’s a reason to why he told Anakin that the Sith and Jedi are the same.

There’s a reason to why he told Anakin that only the Dark Side can save people from death.

There’s a reason to why he told Anakin that he’s a Sith.

There is a reason to why he just stayed there by himself without his guards knowing the Jedi are coming.

Im not going to defend how all his plans got perfectly tied up in a nice bow in AOTC but I am going to defend how this duel is obviously staged.

His end goal for sending Obi-Wan to guard Padme was for the Jedi and the rest to find out that there’s a Separatist invasion but at the same time they have Clone Army ready to combat it. And for Anakin to fall for Padme and having attachments. Palpatine has been mentoring Anakin for 10 years so he should know who Anakin’s crush is. And I’m not sure but wasn’t there a comic book or something that said it was Dooku who sent the Tuskens to kill Anakin’s mom?? Not sure.

But anyways like you said there would have to be multiple factors in AOTC for all that to come into fruition.

This staged duel however has the least difficulty to pull off compared to what he did in AOTC.

Palpatine would not be sowing the seeds of Jedi Plot and that they are the same as Sith without having a plan to make that happen.

 

Asked ChatGPT to finally settle this debate. LOL

Was Palpatine faking against Mace to turn Anakin to the Dark Side in the movie Revenge of the Sith??

ChatGPT
“Yes, in the movie "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith," Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) was indeed faking his confrontation with Mace Windu as part of his plan to turn Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side.

During the climactic scene, Mace Windu confronts Palpatine after discovering his true identity as a Sith Lord. As Mace Windu gains the upper hand in their lightsaber duel, Palpatine appears to be overpowered and begs for mercy. Anakin arrives at this moment and witnesses Mace Windu seemingly about to strike down Palpatine.

Palpatine's faking is revealed when he uses this moment of vulnerability to manipulate Anakin. He unleashes a powerful blast of Force lightning, severely injuring Mace Windu. Palpatine's appearance of helplessness was a ruse to manipulate Anakin's emotions and drive him further toward the Dark Side. Anakin, believing that Palpatine is the only one who can save Padmé from death and seeking greater power, ultimately chooses to side with Palpatine, solidifying his fall to the Dark Side and becoming Darth Vader.

This pivotal moment showcases Palpatine's manipulation and cunning as he masterfully orchestrates events to further his own agenda and ensure Anakin's allegiance to the Sith.”

There you go!! You can’t argue with A.I. who has more knowledge than anyone in here. Lol…and you guys can ask ChatGPT yourselves to verify because the quote above was straight from ChatGPT itself.

 

Dude just stop already

You didn't even ask the right question, ''did Mace Windu beat Sidious in the duel without Anakin's interference?''

Of course Sidious was faking after losing the duel, because his only chance was Anakin saving him, you expect Sidious to say: ''Alright Jedi master, you won, I accept my punishment, finish it I won't resist.'' Something like this? Or something like Count Dooku just waiting and doing nothing before Anakin finishing him? How is this going to help?

Sidious needed Anakin thus he was faking to be weak and harmless, his crying was fake, that doesn't mean he could stop Windu without Anakin's help.

 

Ok here’s another question for ChatGPT


What was Palpatine’s plan to frame the Jedi in the movie Revenge of the Sith??

ChatGPT
In "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith," Emperor Palpatine's plan to frame the Jedi involves manipulating events to make it appear that the Jedi are attempting to overthrow the Galactic Republic and seize control. His ultimate goal is to justify the Jedi's extermination and solidify his own power as the ruler of the Galactic Empire. Here's an overview of his plan:

1. Creating a War: Palpatine had orchestrated the Clone Wars from behind the scenes by engineering conflicts and manipulating both the Separatist and Republic forces. This ongoing war served to weaken the Jedi and make them reliant on the military.
   
   
2. Gaining Anakin's Trust: Palpatine cultivated a close relationship with Anakin Skywalker, who was a powerful Jedi Knight. He manipulated Anakin's fears and desires, ultimately turning him to the Dark Side and renaming him Darth Vader.
   
   
3. Order 66: Palpatine issued Order 66, a secret command implanted within the clone troopers, which forced them to turn against their Jedi commanders and eliminate them. This resulted in the near-extermination of the Jedi Order.
   
   
4. Mace Windu's Confrontation: Palpatine orchestrated a confrontation with Mace Windu, during which he allowed himself to appear defenseless and vulnerable. Anakin, who had become his apprentice, intervened to save him. In the ensuing battle, Mace Windu was killed.
   
   
5. Swaying Anakin: After defeating Mace Windu, Palpatine declared that the Jedi were attempting to overthrow the Republic. He painted himself as a victim of the Jedi's supposed treachery and claimed that only through Sith teachings could Anakin save his wife, Padmé, from death.
   
   
6. Order 66 and Jedi Betrayal: With the Jedi seemingly rebelling against the Republic and Anakin's allegiance to the Sith secured, Palpatine executed Order 66. This led to the clone troopers turning on and killing the Jedi across the galaxy, making it appear as though the Jedi had initiated a coup.
   
   
7. Dissolving the Senate: After Order 66 and the extermination of the Jedi, Palpatine manipulated the political situation to have the Galactic Senate grant him emergency powers, effectively dissolving the Republic and establishing the Galactic Empire.
   

Through these orchestrated events, Palpatine successfully framed the Jedi as traitors and positioned himself as the "savior" of the galaxy. This manipulation allowed him to consolidate his power and establish a tyrannical rule as Emperor.

A.I. literally said that Palpatine Orchestrated the Mace Duel.

Even with ChatGPT aside, Palpatine wasn’t planting the seeds throughout the movie about how the Jedi was going to take over without having any plans to make that a reality.

He wasn’t faking so Anakin will save his life …he was faking because that was all staged to begin with to turn Anakin.

Unless what your suggesting is that Palpatine who has been 10 steps ahead of everyone is thinking..”how can I make Anakin believe my lies??? Dam…I have nothing!! So in the meantime I’ll just kill Mace and company and then I’ll think of something afterwards!! Oh no!! Mace beat me out of nowhere!! Wait a minute stupid Palpatine !! stay down!!! You were planning this since the beginning!!! Silly me I forgot about my dialogues before!!!

LMAO

All for the love of SLJ baby!!

 

I mentioned a while back that if Palpatine had any shred of fear, it was when Mace was about to land the killing blow and Anakin was just standing there. He wanted Mace and Co. to attack him, he wanted Anakin to come see this. Even his ‘I’m too weak’ thing was BS because he came right back up roaring ‘POOOOWAH UNNNLIIIMMITTTEEDD POOOOOWWAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!”

I’m pretty sure if he was utterly exhausted and out of cards to play, he wouldn’t have been able to do that. He was hoping Anakin would think he was now utterly defeated, a defenseless old man about to be executed by the evil Mace Windu, hence him freaking out when for a few seconds, Anakin did absolutely nothing.

Now, did he expect Mace to blow out the window and send Palpatine scurrying over to the edge of the window sill? Probably not, but he still had a way to hold out just a bit longer.

My question here would be, what if Anakin did nothing and Mace made the swing, I’m sure Palpatine would have had to use Force Lightning against to deflect him. Would he presume Anakin made his choice to side with the Jedi? What would he think about Anakin’s inaction?

 

If you can see visions of the future through the Force, maybe Palpatine saw Anakin as Vader?

 

His ability to foresee events is above all. Not even Yoda can see that well saying, difficult to see the future is and that it’s always in motion or saying how the Dark Side clouds their sensing the future.

Palpatine on the other hand uses it readily which even makes Vader afraid and impressed in ROTJ.

The Jedi had no clue that Anakin was married yet Palpatine knew and that Anakin was even having nightmares of Padme dying.

So Palpatine knows for sure that Anakin will block it.

But even if you discount his ability to see into the future, his manipulations over people is also second to none.

He knows Anakin is righteous and will not let an unarmed man die. Also at this point, a dead Palpatine is a a dead Padme. So those 2 reasons alone, he knows Anakin will have to save him.

In an off chance he miscalculated, his mastery over the Dark Side will stop Mace either by lightning or Force Push or Force Freeze ala in TROS.

 

With all due respect, I still feel strongly on this topic. George Lucas's word should be enough for everyone. "Mace overpowers Palpatine" is the quote. Not sure how Chat GBT quashes that.

Have a fantastic day

 

Again GL said that in the commentary where he was describing a scene.

Same when he said in this part where he was describing a scene and says where Grevious kidnaps Palpatine ….that doesn’t mean we can all say….It settled then! Grevious is one of the few that is powerful enough to subdue the Dark Lord. Of course not because that’s out of context.

GL did not give that quote to someone who was asking on who really won between Mace vs Palpatine.

People has been asking him about this duel way after ROTS and he has been keeping his mouth shut. Even Producer, Rick M. Says GL knows but he isn’t saying.

Unlike Nick Gillard or Ian Mcdiarmid when asked …they both agreed Palpatine would have destroyed Mace.

 

well if droids could think there’d be none of us here ; )

 

Well actually we are in an era that AI is close to thinking. As of now, they just made screenwriters obsolete. With the help of ChatGPT, anyone who has an idea can be a screenwriter.

It’s not yet self aware and still needs human questions to activate their vast knowledge.

But what it has over people here is the lack of bias and does not ignore the rest of the movie taking a scene out of context in favor of their favorite character.

ChatGPT is straight to the point with pure logic and without bias.

Here’s what it said when I asked whether Palpatine was holding back against Mace in ROTS:


“The prevailing interpretation among many fans and critics is that Palpatine was indeed holding back during his duel with Mace Windu in "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith."

Palpatine's ultimate goal was to turn Anakin Skywalker to the dark side and have him become his Sith apprentice. He wanted Anakin to witness Mace Windu's supposed aggression and take action against him, which would lead to Windu's death. By appearing vulnerable and threatened, Palpatine manipulated Anakin's emotions and convinced him that Windu was trying to kill him.

Therefore, it's reasonable to infer that Palpatine intentionally did not go all-out against Mace Windu in order to create a scenario where Anakin would intervene. Palpatine's cunning planning and manipulation were central to the events of that duel and the subsequent fall of Anakin to the dark side.”

 

'AI' chatbots are unintelligent data scraping algorithms that are filled with hilarious amounts of bias from being fed mangled datasets from other AIs and do nothing but regurgitate garbled imitations of already existing posts on the internet written by actual human beings.

This thread for discussing views on the Sidious/Mace duel. If you can't type your own words, or use the words of other humans to back up what you're saying, then you're not providing anything of worth. An AI can't tell you squat that isn't already available in the world and is likely to send you down a blind alley of useless garbage at worst.

 

And he doesn't even ask the right question on purpose anyways

''Did Mace Windu beat Palpatine without Anakin's interference?''

Lets see what answer the almighty AI will produce.

This ''Sidious knows everything happens'' argument is annoying and just tells me that either you are not paying attention what happened in the series or you are just trolling.

Lets see:

Palpatine didn't know Luke was going to refuse him in RotJ, or that Ezra was going to refuse him in Rebels, or that Ahsoka and Ezra could escape from him in World between Worlds, he sensed there was a great disturbance in the Force because of Kanan Jarrus's death but didn't know how that altered the fate of Lothal, he didn't know why Yoda go to Moraband. He didn't know how Darth Maul survived. He didn't know Dooku leave behind a trace about Sifo-dyas assasination and choked Dooku after he learned that, he didn't know Obi-Wan survived or not after order 66, and he didn't know Obi-Wan was going to beat Anakin in Mustafar until its too late with Anakin losing limbs and needed to be in special suit, and he didn't know Yoda survived order 66 and will attack him, and after didn't know where Yoda go and told Clones double their search, he didn't know former Chancellor Valorum send 2 Jedi knights to Trade federation to negotiate, he didn't know where Anakin's kids escaped, its proven time and time again Palpatine doesn't know everything.

 

@Erkan12

How clear can that question any be???

Was Palpatine holding back against Mace??

That’s a pretty direct question compared to what you were asking.

Your question is like asking did Grevious kidnap Palpatine?? Of course Grevious did.

But did he really???? Of course NOT.

It was all staged just like this farce of a duel.

You saying otherwise is to disregard what happened throughout the movie and the whole series.

- Palpatine has been setting up to frame the Jedi.

- Anakin still turned him down and will help the Jedi arrest him but vows to find the truth to what Palpatine has been saying.

Now fill in the blanks here….

Hmmmm what would you do if you were Palpatine???

You will kill Mace before Anakin comes in and keep prolonging in trying to convince Anakin on his plight OR put yourself in the situation where Anakin will have no choice but to finally get off the fence making your lies come true????

 

Me halfway down the last page of this topic:



And I say that as somebody who believes Palpatine deliberately threw the fight!

 

…It takes the cumulative text of every word every human being has ever stated and jumbles them together to a coherent paragraph. It’s not a sentient entity with its own thoughts. It’s no more aware than a Sim from The Sims franchise. It does what it’s programmed to do.

We really should not be dragging the so-called ‘opinions’ of a programmed AI into this conversation.

 

I was just having fun and see what ChatGPT had to say. It was all fun and games. You don’t need A.I. to see Palpatine was holding back IF you watch the whole series and not just watch this duel by itself. Pretty obvious unless you have a bias on a certain character.

But it is making screenwriters obsolete. Why do you think the Studios are not giving in to the writers demand??? Writers are done. Studios hold the cards. Any Random Joe can write as long as he has an idea.

But yeah I’ll give you that A.I. is just taking what everyone on the net is saying and jumbled up the answer. So yeah of all the info it got on the net…at least the majority of people knows Palpatine was holding back. Good enough for me.

 

we shouldn’t even call it AI. An AI would have a synthetic brain

majority opinion doesn’t mean anything. And no an Algorithm with no creative abilities can’t replace screenwriters, if the studios try that they will die