Discussion Who's the Baddie?

The Norman Osborn of the SW universe, whoever that may be.

 

There was a time right after the Darth Bane trilogy of novels was completed that I hoped we'd get at least a novel for each Sith Lord all the way up to Palpatine. Now obviously I don't think we'll get a film for each one but the time period that's being rumored does give them the opportunity to introduce a new Sith Master and I really hope they do. Even if they aren't the main villain it would just be interesting to see who the Sith of this time period are and how different they are from Palpatine.

 

I wonder how many Sith there were in Bane’s line
If I had to guess I would say around 40

 

Let's figure it out. It took Obi-Wan 25 years to go from apprentice to Knight and then let's say another 10 to become a Master. We don't know Maul's age but the old EU had him at 22 in TPM so the length of training doesn't seem to be too different between them. So give Maul another ten years before he would have been able to realistically challenge Darth Sidious. So if 32 years of training is standard give or take and there's 1000 years between Darth Bane and Darth Sidious then there should be about 30 Sith Lords between them. Of course that doesn't account for Master's who didn't take on an apprentice right away or had multiple apprentices like Palpatine so it could be way off.

 

I'm starting to think they're setting up some eternal, immortal, Super Sith Lord who still "exists" via the Sith "possession" thing they have going on. As every Master is killed and all the Sith pour into the once-apprentice, they as a totality still "exist". But, what if buried deep within a Sith Master is the Original SIth (or at least Plagueus who found the way to cheat death). That opens up the field to always call-back to the Sith as this cancer that has infested everything and continues to live on. But, that would mean (for post-ST films) that Palps would have to pull a horcrux-thing and have his Sith Essence (I'm copyrighting that cologne name LOL ) preserved elsewhere.

I believe that's going to always be The Bad Guy, no matter in what era they choose to set a story.

 

It's an interesting time period for sure. I suppose the issue is that there can't be any large scale conflict involving the Sith. They operate for a thousand years in complete secrecy so the Jedi and the Republic can't be aware of their movements or even their existence. Obviously that doesn't prevent individual Jedi from encountering the Sith but they would need to be killed before they could reveal anything to the Jedi Council.

I suspect every Sith Lord in the 1000 years before Palpatine had their own plan for galactic domination and revenge. Some played the long game, knowing that they had to lay the ground work for future generations of Sith but inevitably, the Sith are selfish so there would surely have been more than one Sith Lord who attempted to enact some grand design that ultimately failed.

There are definitely stories that could be told about different generations of Sith though I suspect they'd be very different kinds of movies to standard Star Wars fare. More plotting and scheming, espionage and subterfuge than fighting wars, especially considering that the galaxy has stood in relative peace for all that time. I for one would like to see that. Not sure about general audiences though. People expect certain things from Star Wars.

Regarding Bane, in the EU, Bane didn't just instigate the Rule of Two, he was the last Sith before the reformation of the Republic. For me, that represents a bit of a problem. If Bane starts the Rule of Two and goes into hiding, I don't think it's reasonable for the Jedi to say that the Sith are always two. They would only have one example of that philosophy and would have no reason to think that the Sith were even capable of maintaining that philosophy for one generation, never mind several.

If I recall correctly however, in the official canon, it's never actually stated when the Rule Of Two was instigated, just that Bane is the one responsible. So rather than having Bane the last Sith before the Sith regime fell, the Rule Of Two could be instigated a few generations earlier. You'd have the Old Republic which is small, made up of Core Worlds, protected by the Jedi, surrounded by several Sith factions rather than a united Sith Empire. Those factions would be constantly warring with each other but Bane would instigate a plan to wipe out the other Sith, leaving himself as sole ruler of every Sith faction.

Bane would then establish the rule of two and it would continue on for a few generations. Unfortunately, each progressive Sith Lord would see their power lessen as slave revolts spring up across the galaxy. forcing the Sith ruler at the time to turn to droid armies, no longer able to rely on the slave armies of old. This, coupled with the Jedi's grand plan to liberate the galaxy would see the Sith regime ultimately collapse. The Sith Master would be killed by their apprentice and disappear and what I guess you might call the Core Worlds Republic would expand to encompass much of the territory once ruled by the Sith, creating the Galactic Republic. The Jedi would be wary that there's an apprentice out there but over time, with no apparent retaliation, they would conclude that the apprentice either died at the end of the war or abandoned the ways of the Sith and went into hiding.

An approach like this allows for the Rule Of Two to be established to the point that the Jedi are not only aware of it but have seen generations of examples of it being set in stone as Sith philosophy. The downside is that with the Rule Of Two being established before the fall of the Sith, you don't get to have armies of Jedi and Sith fighting on the battlefield. It would be Jedi fighting droids again.

 

One thing the Skywalker movies gave us was the Wavering Baddie.
The Good Guy who goes Bad, the Bad guy who wants to be Good again.

A Revan-ish character that wavers between Dark and Light and isn't completely comfortable with either could be fun.

 

Plaugeis

 

Here's something different: a being that evolved in and from dark matter. This could be totally alien in a Lovecraft-horror sort of way, just seeing it is a blow to most peoples' sanity. Its actions seem senseless and its purpose unfathomable, but definitely not good for the known galaxy.

 

I like this idea. Insanity when fighting Lovecraftian monsters is a great theme, which was very well explored in popular modern boardgames like Eldritch Horror.

 

Moff Gideon confirmed one thing for me: I prefer non-sorcerer villains in Star Wars. Tarkin was my favorite before him. And Krennic. So I’d be fine with never seeing another Sith Lord, unless the design and the characterization is amazing and more complex than another cackling sorcerer.

 

1. Flawed, centralized, detached, bureaucratic Jedi following the orders of a flawed, apathetic, systematic Republic serving as the gray antagonists.
2. A sympathetic authoritarian government that's not as plain evil as Palpatine/Snoke/Tarkin/etc., to have a conflict that shows why authoritarian government even when not cackling evil is still bad.
3. A sympathetic liberator/freedom-fighter antagonist who focuses on the ends justifying the means, no matter how bloody. Think of a mix of the Red Lotus in Legend of Korra with Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones.

 

Posting here as I remembered this thread is more specific for this idea:

What if the new movies feature two different "good" sides, each one trying to implement their world-view and all this spiraling into a war between them?
So it would be different was there would be no "evil" side, and fans would gravitate to different sides, generating discussions and providing a different take on the franchise?

 

Does the baddie now need to be some horrific looking monster/human/humanoid?

Something that is straight out of nightmares rather than the eloquent and suave Dooko or the more creepy and mysterious Palps and Snoke?

 

Thrawn.

Unfortunately, rumors sound like they're gonna go the Legends route and start retconning him into really being a good guy, underneath it all. One of the best parts of his Rebels incarnation was that at least he was an unapologetic villain again.

 

I guess. But I really hate the "I can divine an enemy's military tactics from their pottery" thing, and would not want to see such a ridiculous plot device in live action. If they dropped that nonsense, I'd love to see him.

 

Yeah, it got overdone eventually. Originally, it was just a way into their psychology and some ideas towards the type of tactics they prefer, which I can see to some degree. It was never supposed to be a superpower.

 

I wouldn't mind a Sith type big bad at some point later down the road but at the moment I'm over it. Moff Gideon is great and is proof that you CAN introduce a new big bad late in the game and make it work really well.

All that said one of the reasons I'm not excited about future Star Wars movies is that I think the next big bad WILL be yet another Sith.

One of the nice things about a non-Sith big bad would be that we wouldn't have another situation where the evil big bad is trying to convince the hero to turn to the dark side. I've had enough of that for a while.

 

This so boring to me a Jedi could just ko these guys so easily, also we’ve yet to see someone turn and then really struggle and turn back. Like for long stretches for the movie if done right this could be an excellent character study we meet someone who’s good, they turn and they turn back without trilogies this would deff be interesting

 

Did Obi-Wan just KO Governor Tarkin in ANH? These guys are usually protected by legions of henchmen. There are plenty of ways to make it work.

 

I’m pretty bored of villains in the Tarkin mold. I’d prefer something more otherworldly and unknowable.

 

We’ve gotten...two such villains, I believe (Krennic and Gideon). And personally, I think Gideon is the best villain we’ve gotten since Vader. And we’ve only seen ten minutes or so from him thus far. So I disagree. Tons of potential for variety among these powerful humans. Though I do think we can get alien villains in this mold as well.

The unknowable, otherworldly villains are the ones that can come off as extremely cartoonish if not executed perfectly and sparingly, and so that scares me. The DCEU and the MCU have failed massively with their villains in this way, IMO, and I worry about that kind of thing infecting Star Wars. Palpatine played that role wonderfully. But let’s keep him special and unique for a while. And then perhaps introduce an otherworldly villain in 10-20 years or so with a new saga.

 

I disagree with everything you said, sir, but still wish you a good day.

 

I wish you good fortune in the Star Wars to come!

But surely, you must think Gideon is a great villain, at the very least?

 

I say more stern Tarkin villains. I hope star wars never copies from the bad villains of marvel. Thanos the big bad was pathetic.