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Lit Why all the LOTF hate?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The Supreme Chancellor, Jun 2, 2013.

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  1. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    Agreed. Both of their storylines were well handled. After SBS i'll be honest and say I completely forgot Raynar existed, and then "BAM" within the first few chapters of Joiner King he's back front and center. Alema's fall was tragic, but so well done, and a nice call back to the fact that from the start Luke knew she'd fall eventually.
     
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  2. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    They were both so overbearing, okay UnuThul or whatever he called himself more so than Alema but she was a pain in the neck as well. I wanted to take a sledgehammer to their heads. When I read the excerpt for Tempest I practically facepalmed. When I read the story I was okay with it. No complaints on Raynar in FOTJ. I sort of expected that one.
     
  3. Sniper_Wolf

    Sniper_Wolf Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Hmm, tis time for Professor Ripley to step in and spice up the discussion. Many poxes should be thrown on the pox that inflected me. [face_hypnotized] I'll attempt to not be too scatter shot in my responses.

    @ Force Smuggler and DarthJenari re Anakin Solo in Legacy of the Force.

    The small thread regarding the memory of Anakin Solo is a symptom of the moral degradation of Jacen Solo's character given Anakin Solo reached a cultural apotheosis in the Jedi Order. As a martyr of the cause at a young age Anakin is transformed from a person to an ideal. This is indicative to all of us regarding loved ones who have passed on. We assume the positive or negative traits to a person are the full representation of their life when they generally fall into a middle ground. Hypothetical example, we remember Anakin Solo for his sacrifice, yet we do not remember him eating with his mouth open or insert irritating trait.

    Appropriating Anakin's name for Jacen's memory is Jacen demonstrating his ability to pick elements out of the past to suit his military and political ambition. Similarly, the usage of Anakin's memory with Tahiri in Inferno moves the thought of Anakin deeper into questionable motives. When Jacen finds his deceased brother an irritant by Fury Jacen's moral compass has degraded considerably. Perhaps this is not as elegant as Michael Corelone ordering the execution of Fredo in The Godfather Part II. However, the gradual change over the series is one of the more intelligent moves implemented by the authors though the lack of Caedus going into monologue over how much of a **** he views Anakin in Fury is one of more prominent criticism of Allston's writing, but I do not feel the need for a diatribe at this moment.

    @ Lady_Misty and others disliking the graduate school independent study of Jacen after The Unifying Force.

    Declaring Jacen's studies of the numerous Force schools outside of the Jedi/Sith dichotomy leading to a grand renaissance in the Jedi is not the only reading of The Unifying Force. Let us refer back to the Faustian readings of how Jacen acts before and after.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust Goethe's version and The Master and Margarita are my favorite interpretations of the legend, but any of the major incarnations of great reads. My professor even made reference to how the wikipedia picture resembles the emo agnst of Anakin Skywalker in her many comments lamenting the stunted quality of the Prequels. :p

    In Luceno's typical brick subtle prose, the author makes reference to Jacen reaching a level of oneness with the Force he will spend his during the melting of Omni in the final battle. This precipitates Jacen backpacking across the GFFA afterwards. I'll acquire the exact textual evidence tomorrow since my EU novels are currently in a storage locker.

    The portrayal of Jacen in Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force shows an arrogant man reaching for something more than where is he at when New Jedi Order concludes. By visiting the school of thoughts for Force users the arrival of a Sith reading is inevitable. Forbidden knowledge is an endpoint for Jacen. He is Prometheus stealing the fire from the gods.

    There is evidence placed inside New Jedi Order for Jacen picking up the black robes. Perhaps Del Rey picked on young Jacen to give an emotional component to the story.

    Re Tahiri as Darth Sidekick.
    The utilization of flow walking by Caedus on Tahiri shows her reliving one of the most stressful moments of her life repeatedly while the illusion of change is held in front of her. Orson Scott Card's Xenocide illustrates a great applicable situation by the appearanceof Peter Wiggin's aiua. Despite Ender and Peter reaching a understanding at the conclusion of Ender's Game Ender still carries the trauma of their childhood together. A full catharsis is incapable, and the appearance of the Peter caricature stirs Ender to devolving in his actions. The way Tahiri acts is not dissimilar to when an addict relapses after a long sting of sobriety. Denning describes Jacen finding Tahiri on the anniversary of Anakin Solo dying. Therefore, the old emotions are closer to the surface than before.

    My armchair analysis of the general malaise to Legacy of the Force given the regular posters here on the Literature forum? For once, Del Rey tried to install a little more gravitas, tried to reach just a little higher before than many of preceding novels. The Yuuzhan Vong brought a strong sense of the other in New Jedi Order, but outside of Nom Anor any attempt at differentiation between most of the Vong characters failed. Additionally, most of the philosophical debates within the Jedi in the inaugural are too split for actual discussion.

    Most of the alleged arguments based on the innante "cynicism" of Del Rey are baseless nonsense due to the inherent nature of the EU following New Republic/Galactic Alliance so close to the end of the First Galactic Civil War. A statement which has gained currency amongst many of the posters here is the idea that the American Revolution is a comparable analogue to the Rebellion. This is nice if you have a novel set around Legacy stating "After the conclusion of Endor and several growing pain the Galactic Alliance and the Imperial Remnant established a peaceful hegemony over the galaxy for centuries after decades of bitter strife from three civil wars and an extragalactic invasion." The hegemony must go through the various factions wanting their version of the galaxy established. The American Revolution established my nation, yet many causes for the American Civil War existed during the Founders' timeframe. The American Civil War helped emancipate the slaves, and events of Reconstruction caused a full century for civil rights to be implemented alongside the gradual economic reconstruction of the South.

    Implying ineptitude on the overall apparatus of the post-NJO plan due to a direction taken which went opposite to your preconceived notions is profoundly silly. If you are dissatisfied by the status quo then, as consumers of the product, you are free to voice your dissapproval or decline to continue purchasing.

    Time for me to sleep. Cold pizzas sound like a great night cap. [face_party]
     
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  4. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2008
    In the DNT Jacen shows no signs of true Darkness.

    what are you talking about!!! Jacen gave Tenel ka's aunt or whoever she is, a freaking brain lobotomy with the force, and he showed no signs??
     
  5. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Let's also not forget his willingness to mind rape his younger cousin. Then there's the fact he was manipulating people to achieve the goal he thought was best. Oh, oh, then let's remember he was just so ready to assassinate Raynar.
     
  6. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Sniper, Sniper, sniper - are you wishing to be virtually napalmed? :)

    You're on a hiding to nothing with this notion that people didn't like it because they didn't understand it, or it was to complex for them! Counter-point is quite simple: People understood it just fine - save for some of the most baffling and incoherent plot developments ever seen in the EU - and they didn't like it.

    Nor is it either-or, people will voice disapproval to a very great degree and still buy select items. The problem with the direction taken in LOTF is that the foundations for it are shaky at best. LOTF flows from DN which in turn ignored large chunks of TUF so making a mockery of any notion of continuity between stories.
     
  7. mulberry

    mulberry Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2009

    True!

    It also me how it seems like he found out he was a father, and then just went off the rails. It was really pathetic.

    Here he is, a guy with just about any resource available to him, he is well educated, well trained, family with money, had a kid with a QUEEN, and all of the sudden he is so worried about what kind of future his kid will have that he flips out and goes dark side? Dude, most everybody else has been doing it with way less for millenia, and it usually turns out OK.
     
  8. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2008
    agreed
     
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  9. Lady_Misty

    Lady_Misty Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 21, 2007
    I do agree with the thought/statement that after TUF Jacen was just trying to feel that connection to the Force that he had experienced destroying Omini(?). But he should have been intelligent enough after a few years that it was beyond his grasp.

    It seemed to me that during that battle Anakin Skywalker had either joined with Jacen or something like that to destroy Omini.

    The facts that Jacen felt no remorse for heavily bruising Ben's neck, making Tenel Ka's grandmother a vegetable, lying to his aunt and uncle who trust him with their son's safety, breaking a cease fire and several other things don't look good for him.

    Tenel Ka makes everything even worse. She tells Jacen that he can borrow however many ships he needs for the Killiks as long as he makes love to her, she saw Jacen hurt Ben, might have guessed what he did to her grandmother and a few other things but to save her daughter she doesn't see it fit to inform Luke and Mara, who it said at one point she respected, that Jacen had heavily bruised Ben's neck or what he might have done to her grandmother?
     
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  10. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Finished Sacrifice and am on Inferno.
    Mara's death is one of the if not the worst executed death in the EU.
    I'm not bothered that they killed her off but that was bad. First why didn't she write everything to Luke as a Just In Case. I can understand not wanting to tell him but my god, have a back up plan! Instead they drag it out until the end of Fury or into Revelation, can't remember which. I know Mara disappeared into the Force when Jacen showed up at the funeral to warn Luke but why leave it to chance? Why would Luke view it as reconciliation anyway?
    Also, Ben! Why not tell him Luke what was going on or what he knew! Mara knew so why not tell Luke!
    And then the actual killing itself? Jacen was a butt for using and image of Ben but why would Mara hesitate? She knew Ben wasn't there!
     
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  11. LivingJediDream

    LivingJediDream Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2010
    You're looking for logic where there is none.

    So, it occurred to me to wonder, why exactly is the series called "Legacy of the Force"? What is the legacy of the Force? That the dark side skips every other generation?
     
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  12. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Should have been Legacy of the Skywalkers instead. Never got the point of the title of Invincible.
     
  13. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Faces have been scientifically shown to evoke powerful emotional responses in people, especially those to which a person already holds strong feelings, whether positive or negative. In that moment, when she sees Ben instead of Jacen, logic doesn't factor in at all. Instead, a completely different section of the brain is triggered, essentially screaming "That. Is. Your. Son!" despite all evidence to the contrary, leading to a moment of hesitation. There have been actual studies testing this phenomenon in the real world, analyzing whether an individual would have a psychological reaction to familiar faces, even knowing full well that the thing they are seeing cannot actually be the person their mind believes it is, and shows that Mara's reaction is typical for humans.

    While I'm largely certain that little thought went into the naming of the series beyond a general "This sounds catchy...," at least the early installments appeared to be working with an idea of pushing forward new characters related to older characters, or certain legacies, if you will. The story of Ben beginning to come into his own as a young man of the Skywalker line, the showcased dynamic between Wedge and his daughters, the introduction of Mirta Gev and her relationship with Boba Fett... But then that particular plot concept was relegated to the background much as the Confederacy was.
     
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  14. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    My main gripe was that nothing all that amazing happened, and the authors missed the opportunity to really out-NJO the NJO in terms of affects on characters...I finished the third or so book with the very strong impression that Jacen was going to 'sacrifice' his wife and daughter. That would have been horrible and ugly and gone a long way to convincing me that 1) Jacen truly was evil to the bone and 2) that the authors were showing the same lack of caring about fan opinions as they did for the NJO (which IMO resulted in some great books).

    Sadly, neither was true. My main feeling towards LOTF is just "meh". Ultimately nothing really all that amazing or interesting (to me, anyway) happened.
     
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  15. LivingJediDream

    LivingJediDream Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 7, 2010
    I seriously wonder if since the start of LOTF, Del Rey has employed the same type of naming scheme to these novels that Marvel did for "Secret Wars." Marketing research must have indicated that people are more likely to buy a novel with the words "legacy," "tempest," "invincible," "fury," "exile," and "fate" in the title. Or they just thought that brand confusion between LOTF and SW Legacy would benefit sales, either through outright confusion or erroneous association. I guess "enigma" didn't get vetted through marketing research.
     
  16. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In Tempest it was Tenel Ka though he did a good enough job trying to kill his parents in the meantime, in Exile, it was to be his parents and he did leave them, then in Sacrifice, it was to be Ben but ended up being Mara. Jeez.
     
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  17. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    It wasn't really Mara though because he didn't care about Mara. He sacrificed Ben's affection for him by killing Mara, even though Ben didn't know what he'd done. It was the biggest cop out since Cop Out.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Jacen fall's to the dark side like Anakin before him, thus adopting the Skywalker legacy.
     
  19. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Feb 9, 2007
    Which is kind of a stupid legacy to adopt., no offense. Now the actual Legacy comics that focus on Cade eventually, reluctantly getting around to saving the galaxy, now that's a good story of someone trying to deal with the legacy of their ancestors.

    Technically, I guess Legacy and Fate could apply to the the sad excuse of the novels' plot, but only in the vague, generic sense. It would be like if something was titled "ETERNAL STRUGGLE OF THE JEDI" and then we got a book about the Jedi sitting around the Temple arguing with each other... oh wait, that was FotJ. :p

    Yeah, Mara's death was horrible, stupid and I really hate that they killed her. Especially since it wasn't really a sacrifice. I vaguely remember at one point he was thinking about Tenel Ka and/or Allana as the sacrifice,then when Lumiya explained why he needed to sacrifice something that was related to him, he decided on his parents, but even Lumiya has to point that since Jacen doesn't care about his parents by this point, getting rid of them isn't really a sacrifice. With Sacrifice, it was more like, whoops, Jacen killed Mara, and oh yeah, that means he'll lose any chance of Ben's friendship, so that counts and poof, Darth Caedus.

    The "mystery" of Mara's death being dragged out until Revelation is another long painful thing to endure. And while it was a cheap trick, Jacen projecting Ben's image, I've seen that pop up in fiction, someone hesitating at a familiar image, then paying for it in a fight. Its sad, but later books (even in FotJ) make it look even more stupid and pathetic then it already looks in Sacrifice. I disliked all the deaths of NJO, but LotF and FotJ are far worse, since at least in NJO, they usually died heroically and/or as part of a mission.
     
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  20. rincewind86

    rincewind86 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 2013
    i will write o longer reasoning why Lotf failed BIG TIME later on.....right now iam at work ^^
    i repost my text i wrote in another forum regarding the matter:

    For once Jacen should have been brought back to the light side or atleast should have hinted why he fell to the dark side...or even better: SHOULD HAVE TALKED TO LUKE ABOUT HIS WHITE THRONE VISION!!!
    The whole 2. galactic civil war theme sucked ass if you ask me and the reasoning Jacens to embrace the dark side was just .....fail. All this "like Anakin/ Vader"-**** really depressed me. The whole reasoning why Anakin fell to the dark was [hl=Saddlebrown]TROUSERS[/hl] in E3 as was the reasoning Jacens to do the same. I just dont know what those guys from Del Ray thought as they wrote the main plot. How can we **** it up now?- is my impression.

    And most important: Jacen so easily could have won in his battle vs Jaina... i mean how many more forcetricks does he know? he was like the "choosen one" in NJO...she was just "the sword of the jedi"..how could he ever loose vs her? This little bit of training she did on Mandalore..i mean he trained YEARS in all kinds of different force arts and fighting styles.....and she?

    Maybe my expectations just where to high for LotF...but it really failed in all kinds of ways if you ask me.

    There is much moch more to say about how hard LotF failed....but i have to collect my thoughts about it first

    [hl=Saddlebrown]Edited for inappropriate language[/hl]
     
  21. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    But did he ever learn to use them tactically or strategically?

    You can have a SF2 player who is brilliant at the execution of fireballs, hurricane kicks and dragon punches but who then makes the fatal error of assuming these techniques are sufficient to win a battle. They're not. Each of these moves has weaknesses and can be countered, knowing and being able to use the technique is but half the battle, knowing when to use each is the other half.

    From how he was in DN, Jacen has certainly gone around acquiring knowledge but he hasn't been doing so in depth, nor has he been doing self-critically, rather the opposite, he's used the superficial knowledge he has gained to reinforce his held beliefs.
     
  22. JediMatteus

    JediMatteus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Mara's death is one of the if not the worst executed death in the EU.
    i disagree. Mara's death had a profound emotional impact on me. As upset that I was that it happened, i loved that she fought so hard and so well against a superior opponent. Jacen had to use an illusion to defeat her. It was that close to him getting killed. The biggest problem with it is that Jacen did not murder her as part of the sacrifice. She attacked him. That was the big mistake, and if that's what you referring to as worse executed death, then i agree.

    i am currently re-reading LOTF. I just finished Betrayal. I still think this was the best book in the series. Too bad that such a great start ended so tragically and badly in a literary way as well. I just started Bloodlines, and Am enjoying it as well. I have read this series probably twice before, but it has been awhile.
     
  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Jacen poisoning Mara was a copout. It was good seeing Mara being so overprotective of Ben but using an image of him was a low blow. Besides shouldn't Mara have sensed Jacen's force presence and not Ben's? Couldn't beat her straight up so had to resort to trickery. Proved he shouldn't be a Sith Lord. Mara didn't write it out what she was going to be doing or write talk to Ben. Speaking of that why didn't Ben tell Luke about Lumiya working with Jacen! Or the mindrub!
    I admit I don't know the mechanics of force telepathy but couldn't Mara have warned Luke before she died about Jacen? What would he have been able to do to stop her?

    Also I'm on Inferno and almost forgot how much of a pain Serpa was.
    Also the conversation between Tenel Ka and Jacen at the beginning of the book is so bloody similar to Anakin and Padme its not funny.
     
  24. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2011

    He didn't talk to Luke about his vision of the Throne of Balance because if didn't exist when Jacen Solo fell to the Dark Side.

    In terms of his final confrontation with Jaina I think it needs to be pointed out he wasn't at his best, and he was busy attempting to warn Tenel Ka Allana was in danger. The series had numerous problems, but I don't think that was one of them, because it didn't come off as Jaina defeating a healthy Darth Caedus.
     
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  25. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    This is not the disqualifier you may think it to be. Rare are the Sith Lords who consider honorable combat a part of what it means to be a Sith. Trickery, treachery, underhandedness...these are as much a part of Sith culture as battle prowess. That Jacen was adopting this approach is even more indicative of his decent to the dark and the ways of the Sith, moving away from the noble Jedi he had been.
     
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