ST Why can't the "mind meld" be the catalyst for Rey's Force knowledge?

I don't think they are in over their heads. But their victory isn't easy and there are times that each is in danger and IMO is confronted with how they can actually get killed in this situation. That feeling is there.

If they were in over their heads, it would be much worse, like Luke vs. Vader in ESB, which might have been something you eluded to before. The guards aren't meant to be THAT tough to beat. But that's not to say Rey and Kylo don't struggle defeating them or have moments in which they are in real danger. The whole fight is dangerous.

I guess I didn't think it had to be like the ESB Luke/Vader fight, and I agree with @Ender_and_Bean that the greater suspense in the scene is what will happen after the fight.

 

Really, because I felt ZERO tension of sense of danger whatsoever in that scene. And the scene afterwards was just terribly-written.

I'm sorry, but a group of nameless faceless mooks that you knew weren't going to win getting beat by two overpowered characters isn't "testing them." There's no emotion there AT ALL (unlike with Luke vs. Vader). It's nothing more than a fancy lightshow, that's it.

 

None of the villains are going to win. Villains don't win. Anyway I feel like the amount of danger it takes to make someone tense differs per person and is some kind of nervous system thing.

 

Really, because there was tension during the Bespin duel, and Vader DID win there. And he not only won, he won easily. There was tension during the Throne Room Scene in ROTJ.

Again in every way, Rey's supposed "setbacks" are far less convincing or believable then Luke or Anakin's.

 

So the complaint is that Rey needs to be in utter peril like Luke in ESB. This could be applied to Finn as well, since all these "heroes in danger" scenes are at the same point in the movie. Not to mention how making Hux/FO so comical kind of means the viewer can't take them too seriously.

All of this put together makes me think that intentionally the movie wasn't trying to be like the peril of ESB.

I actually did find Snoke controlling Rey rather perilous because if Kylo had done as Snoke wanted, Rey would be dead. There was nothing she could do.

 

Then what is it trying to be then? A comedy? As much as I am not fond of newer Star Wars films copying older films, there are some things that deserve to be copied again. The perils and tension of TESB is worth repeating again because it works. We know what's at stake and what are Luke's personal stakes during his duel against Darth Vader. Vader supposedly killed his father and had his friends be endangered. Vader killed an experienced Jedi Master and countless other Jedi while Luke is undertrained and reckless. And Yoda casually dismisses the idea that Luke is the last hope of the galaxy, thereby removing any assured plot armor that would guaranteed Luke's survival (even though we know he's going to live).

I felt no peril with Rey in her confrontation with Snoke. I still was not convinced of her stakes with Kylo Ren and Snoke. She proclaims that Kylo Ren can become good, but we are never shown what exactly did she see in him that could make her come to that conclusion (and we can't use blood ties because subversion). Snoke is flashy with his monologue but has no substance as to why I should fear him more than Palpatine (everything is Sidious-lite). And the moment I saw Kylo Ren using the Force to turn the lightsaber on Snoke's armchair, I knew what exactly was going to happen. And I became more annoyed than tensed because I was wondering how dumb Snoke has to be to not see the lightsaber turning. Any tension regarding with Rey's helplessness in the scene is completely lost. She was going to live through, no question asks.

Compare that to Luke with the Emperor in ROTJ. The Emperor doesn't physically restrained Luke through the Force because he doesn't need to. He psychologically taunts Luke with morality issues, knowing that Luke can't kill him without giving into the Dark Side. Sidious uses his apparent weaknesses as his strength and it only makes you wonder what else does he have up his sleeves. A villain who can restrain our hero and powerful Jedi without resorting to the Force is a suspenseful villain who deserves to be the ultimate bad guy.

 

One of the most surprising things I’m observing here is that people who loathe TLJ don’t think there was any tension in the scene and people who enjoy it feel there was.

Could it be that reaction to tension, violence, action, technobabble setups, and humor, might all be deeply personal and varied from person to person?

 

I mean TLJ doesn't have just the dark feeling of doom in ESB. I feel like it's dark in different ways.

But to me, the Rey/Kylo fight isn't the weak part of the film, but one of the strongest.

My complaint about the mid movie is most of the FO/Resistance stuff. It would have helped everything to make that stuff better.

 

Is this even serious?

THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!

 

How does the force work then?

Remember that Jedi apprentice for years in order to be allowed to be made into Jedi knights.

Nobody and nowhere says that the force only works for people that have had a minimum amount of "training".

Over to you.

(oh and, "So I'm supposed to think that there's no point in training yourself that everything should just happen, it's a reward for not working hard - what kind of life lesson is that?" etc etc is a similarly separate argument to how the force works. That kind of argument would apply if it was conveyed to the audience that everyone else in the galaxy is just lazy and can't be bothered with the training to make the force work for them, unlike the Jedi.)

 

Every Jedi had some power or force sensitivity before they were even discovered. The "training" was merely guidance on how to use their powers wisely and responsibly. And they became more powerful with wisdom. The training never involved being taught new tricks. The light side of the force is using Rey as it's vessel and she is learning on her own how to use her power. Do people really think the force just disappears if their is no one left to train you? Then how did the very first Jedi ever come to be? It would have to be much like the way Rey is doing now. The force will find a way to surface one way or another.

 

I believe that the question is why the Jedi and Sith, for over a thousand years, didn't just mind meld abilities to every student. No need for an expensive training programme. Master Yoda Version 10.8 can be downloaded at your local Jedi Temple station.

 

Well we are increasingly entering this age in which you don't go through some apprenticeship... having more skills is better and often you much teach yourself these skills.

 

I believe the indication is that this connection is rare at best, not well understood. The Jedi and Sith, for over a thousand years, wouldn't have known everything about the Force. Or they have had a different ideology about teaching. Yoda explained the nature of the Force to Luke, when presumably he could've used something more hands-on as Luke did for Rey. But it fits because Yoda lived primarily in the more structured ways.

 

Except you can't exactly teach yourself something you have never heard about! That's why the Force is so unique. Take the bar scene where Obi Wan tells the guy to go and rethink his life. You didn't have random people in the bar (non Jedi) going around mind tricking people into buying death sticks.

It just makes no sense?!

But Rey (unless she is Luke's daughter hidden for protection and was at his Temple) has not had any exposure to the Force. She hasn't even heard of it. No training. Random people are not captured by Jedi, or Sith and suddenly turn into Goddesses on some "download". This is frankly ridiculous. It is also not explained on the MOVIE SCREEN. That canon should be above any additional material. You shouldn't need extra information to understand a film.

This Robot Chicken clip poked fun at Rey's abilities in TFA and kinda pointed out the craziness of it:



If her training and powers (suppressed by someone to protect her) had been "awoken", maybe it makes sense. But Force downloads seem utterly ridiculous and make Star Wars and its intricate universe seem meaningless. It also detracts from Rey as a character if she has no flaws, never grows or progresses (because she's already 200% awesome). I find even the actress playing her doesn't even explain the character properly.

Compare that to Princess Leia, Padme, etc, who all grow and stand out on their own merit. They progress as people. Fit into the story.

In no way do Anakin, Luke, other Jedi Younglings just become Insta-awesome. Anakin was bested several times. You didn't see him meet the Jedi one day and then run to slice Maul in two. He grew (and had flaws etc). Luke also was naive and learnt from his mistakes.

His ability to destroy the Death Star, was partly down to inherent ability (being the offspring of Anakin), but also down to Obi Wan's guidance. It is shown Obi Wan gives him some training. Which is better than ZERO training that Rey appears to have had. At least Ren you can buy some of his skill based on he has supposedly been trained (though yet again to what extent we don't know and his powers vary too much).

But frankly, Rey's Force knowledge makes no sense. She almost seems invulnerable beyond Superman (who at least has weaknesses and made mistakes). Wonderwoman as a character in a recent film had more development than what happened.

It's like right now, Rey would probably take on and beat Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Dooku, etc without any help, despite having not had any training, or having heard of the Force just 3 days ago. Luke during his training, and showing much promise, was unable to beat Vader in ESB. Even in ANH, he succeeds because Han Solo turned up. Anakin bests Dooku on the second duel, with goading and turning to the dark side.

One wonders if it's so easy to become a Jedi, why bother with a Jedi Temple? Just have several little Jedi Force fuel stations, where a Jedi Master sits and a student just downloads their abilities within a few simple clicks for a few Credits!

 

@DarthTalonx - how do you think all the knowledge of the Force was accumulated? In the beginning there was no one to explain it all. However, Rey has the Jedi texts (I'm sure she can find some way to translate them) and I'm sure Luke will appear to Rey. So regardless, I don't see a problem.

But because each trilogy is for the younger generations viewing it, they might be trying to say that sometimes you won't be spoon fed everything by others. Sometimes you have to teach yourself things--research, find the information yourself. Luke spent a lot of time doing this as well.

 

"Midi-chlorians are a microscopic life form that resides within all living cells."
"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together."
"It moves through and surrounds every living thing."

Franky, that's ridiculous, in part because she couldn't best Luke when he basically had a stick.

I wonder if this is a discussion, or a series of opportunities for sardonic statements.

 

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about? How is human knowledge passed down? Does one simply download it by a mind meld?

It is passed down through documented history. Through teaching. Through learning. By learning how to use inherent abilities or skills. It is not instant. It might be quick in some cases to pick up, but it is not instant.

And this trilogy is meant to be a continuation, not a separate trilogy. It's one saga. Thus far it was consistent.

We have not seen Rey "teach herself". She simply appeared to be a scavenger (unless left for her safety by Luke) who coincidentally runs into the main players. Then becomes instantly awesome and the central protagonist. Hopefully she is a Skywalker given its their saga. Rey didn't teach herself anything. She apparently can lift rocks with no training. Mind trick? Check. Not even having HEARD of it. And then she beat up Luke Skywalker with a stick.

Imagine if Anakin, a mere "boy" had turned up in TPM, and with his hyper spanner, beat down Yoda and Windu before him, for refusing to train him?

True. But in that case, Anakin had demonstrated seeing things before they could happen, and also being a human who could fly pod racing (requiring reflexes beyond most human species sentients).

Unlike that, Rey didn't demonstrate any Force skills on Jakku. My hope is she is a leftover Skywalker. Simply having midi chlorians and being the Chosen One doesn't mean you are instantly Number One Force user.

Anakin Skywalker did not beat Maul when he first turned up on the scene. He got bested by Dooku. He learnt and made mistakes. Same with Luke, Yoda, Obi Wan etc.

I'm just saying that the Force is stronger in some families (Mark's lines in TFA's teaser trailer), and it is often via being taught how to unlock that potential one becomes great. One is great from day one and beating more experienced masters.

Take the Dooku example. Anakin bested Dooku in his second engagement.

 

@DarthTalonx - I think I'm thinking about this in terms of jobs and the information age. Often knowledge IS available for us IRL thanks to the internet. But if Star Wars is trying to be applicable to the times or whatever by showing Rey being resourceful and able to find information for herself and learn things herself it's fitting with today's job world or the direction things are going.

But anyway, it's not meant to be an argument that Rey shouldn't learn from anyone. That's not why I said it. I was connecting some dots.

 

Flying the Falcon as she did, having never done so, took some of those reflexes.

What masters has Rey beaten?

 

If you aren't going to read my post and reply to it in the context of what I painstakingly typed out, then this discussion ceased to exist. Merely cherry picking sentences taken OUT OF CONTEXT and being sarcastic is not a discussion.

 

I read your reply in full, and responded to a couple of specific points with no sarcasm. If I misunderstood a point you made, by all means tell me so.

 

Because those are lifestyles that represent ideologies and doctrines imposed on the users of the force in order to control its use in society.

They do not define the natural properties of the force itself.

Spirituality exists outwith organised religious doctrines.

 

haven't posted in this thread yet but i posited that the mind meld was the catalyst since i saw the film.

 

What was wrong with the explanation she just transferred her ability with a staff to using a lightsaber?

There seems to be a low key attempt to rectify after the fact by Disney, the Luke pre-TFA comic book seems intent on more of that.