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Saga Why did luke have to face vader to be a jedi...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darthvader1975, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    I've often wondered why luke had to face vader in order to be classed as a jedi.? Throughout jedi we are told that he had to face vader but why did he have to in order to be classed as a jedi.

    And why was it luke and not leia or both when the time was right to face vader and the emperor. Why was like the only hope? Did they not believe a female jedi was capable. There are strong female jedi in the history of the order. I'm wondering did Lucas feel that fans wouldn't get behind a female jedi and wrote it as being the male who took vader on.

    But yeah if luke never took him on would he never have been classed as a jedi. Rey became one very quickly in the ST. No one told her she had to face snoke. Or kylo ren.
     
  2. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 11, 2019
    Lucas probably felt that, which is probably why he went out of his way to hint Leia's own potential with the Force. But Obi-Wan had spent nearly two decades on Tatooine looking after Luke.

    It's possible that both Obi-Wan and Yoda felt it was imperative that Anakin should die. I suspect that Obi-Wan believed this even more so than Yoda. I could be wrong, but . . . I don't know.
     
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  3. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    Luke had to face Vader because Vader was the focus of his inner conflict. Would he give in to hate and use the Dark Side to win, and start the terrible cycle all over again? Or would he stay calm and do what needed to be done while resisting evil? That was Luke's great test, and it would show if he truly had earned a Knighthood. However, it turns out Luke had a better idea of "what needed to be done" than Ben or Yoda did. Thus, he passed his test, and taught Ani what he needed to know in order to return to the Light Side. And the debate over whether Ben & Yoda specifically trained Luke to kill Vader has gone on for many years.

    As for why Luke and not Leia, in-story I guess it's because Ben can't be in two places at once. He chose Luke, who would be safe in anonymity on Tatooine, to distantly watch and be ready to train. Meanwhile, Leia would be protected by the Organa family's power and influence, while doing her part against the Empire in the political arena.. And both of them would be protected by the fact that, in the eyes of the Empire, Ani's children had never been born. Leia would have her chance to become a Jedi, at the right time.

    As for how Rey earned her Knighthood, I guess it came from overcoming her mixed feelings towards Kylo/Ben and facing up to who/what she was. The ST is a bit vague on that, in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 19, 2020
    He didn't. Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong. Luke didn't need to face/kill his own father at all. Yoda and Ben thought of Anakin/Vader as being far beyond redemption, but Luke saw the spark of Anakin in that suit.

    This is why TLJ hurt so much. Luke was supposed to be the first of a new type of Jedi, but he instead just became the last of the old.
     
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  5. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 25, 2003
    That's an interesting perspective. I didn't look at TLJ Luke that way.

    Regarding killing Darth Vader, I think Yoda and Obi-Wan were looking at it from the old Jedi order point of view regarding one of the ways a Jedi can rise to knighthood: vanquishing a Sith-resisting the Darkside yourself in that final test, is a "qualifying event" to make one achieve the level of Jedi Knight. And ultimately that's just what Luke ended up doing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  6. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 19, 2020
    I think your take is perfectly valid, but when it comes to stuff like this I try to figure out more of the creator's mindset when they decided on the dialogue and the story... and obviously neither Lucas or Kasdan were thinking about any of this when they wrote ROTJ back in 83.

    I absolute love the idea of Luke having to become better than the two masters who instructed him. I love that Ben and Yoda both have heavy personal flaws to go alongside their ancient Jedi teachings. I always dug the idea of Yoda and Ben pitting Luke against Vader based on their own feelings even though it may not be in Luke's best interest. After all, neither of them had any issue with lying (or at the very least avoiding the truth in Yoda's case)to him during his training.
     
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  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yoda and Obi-Wan were not wrong. Facing Vader was Luke's Jedi trial. Only if he succeeded in that trial could he become a Jedi knight. He did face Vader and he did succeed.

    And Luke wasn't supposed to be a new type of Jedi. There's no such thing as old and new types of Jedi. He was trained as a Jedi to be a Jedi, like his father before him.
     
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  8. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 19, 2020
    So Luke's trial for Jedi Knighthood was to go kill someone? ...okay.
     
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It was to face Darth Vader.
     
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 19, 2020
    Yes.
     
  11. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Because a Jedi would face the villain and seek a resolution to the threat they pose.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  12. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    Totally agree with this. I think it comes down to each jedis temperament and I think we tend to forget that 30 years have passed between trilogies.

    Luke is still relatively speaken quite naieve even by jedi. His farm boy positivity is still obvious even when it comes to facing his father. His steadfast belief that his father could be saved ultimately saves him.

    By episode 7 the galaxy has changed. We only have a rough idea of what happened to luke but he went through a lot. He changed, he was no longer the idealistic jedi. He failed Ben, or felt he failed Ben and failed his sister with her only son. He lost the jedi academy and show me someone who is still the same after all that. Even han seemed to have taken off when it all went wrong. Luke became cynical, tired and felt a failure. Life thought him a harsh lesson. So he takes himself out of the picture. He's punishing himself which is sad.

    You see when it comes to palpatine luke lost. There's an article somewhere were it shows how palpatine hid from luke and if I could find it I'd share it. But yeah palpatine ultimately won and luke lost. Which is the greatest tragedy
     
  13. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    ESB is my favorite movie ever, but I do wonder why Yoda did not go with Luke. Sure he's old; but he's lifting X Wings and is way more powerful than Luke. Luke has to deal with Vader and possibly the emperor by himself. Luke did leave before his training was complete.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  14. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I always assumed Obi-Wan and Yoda felt Vader needed to die (the ending of ROTS only confirmed this), but that their confidence in this destruction being Luke’s destiny was less certain. They were confident that Luke had to at least confront him, so that’s what they iterated. They didn’t train Leia because if Leia knew, Vader would sense it sooner or later and go after her which, sure enough, is what Vader threatened to do when he finally sensed it through Luke. After TROS came out, I assumed Luke had trained Leia to honor Yoda’s dying words.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 2

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    Apr 12, 2014
    Because Luke wasn't ready to face Vader, so he needed to be able to train Plan B: Leia. If he goes with Luke, it is very possible they both die and they're out of cards to play.
     
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  16. themoth

    themoth Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    He didn’t even want to train Luke to begin with. I feel like Yoda was willing to help, but up to a point. He had been in exile for many years and wasn’t up for that type of fight anymore.
     
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  17. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    I still feel that there were other force adepts out there. The galaxy was a massive place. Pining their hopes on two potential jedi who would have emotional connections to vader seemed a tad foolhardy. It worked out obviously but still....
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Quite different from what you said. He wasn't sent to kill Vader but to face Vader. In doing so, Luke could face a situation where he would be forced to kill him, but that was never stated as the goal by Obi-Wan or Yoda.

    I wasn't speaking about the sequel trilogy. Luke, in the OT, was trained as a Jedi to become a Jedi like his father once was. The teachings and values didn't change between the PT and the OT.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  19. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    I think with respect they had. The impression I got by the ot was that obi wan and then yoda simply didn't have time to go into the level of jedi teachings that jedi during the prequel trilogy would've had. The term padawan and midi chlorians are not mentioned in the ot and indeed in the ST as well. I think luke learned more about the force and the jedi after the fact. Lukes teachings were rushed, he was given the bare basics and was almost rushed as a weapon out to face vader. Even if luke had stayed on dagobshbit would not have been the training he would've got at the jedi temple
     
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  20. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 19, 2020
    LUKE: I can't kill my own father.

    OBI-WAN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    Obi-Wan expected Luke to kill his dad.
     
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  21. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    I agree that they sent Luke to kill Vader. Vader was blowing up planets at this point, so the fact that he was Luke's dad was probably irrelevant to them in a moral sense. No different than Obi Wan going to kill Grevious.
     
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  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    So what? How does the mention of Padawan and midi-chlorians (or lack thereof) make the teachings, principles and ways different? They don't. The teachings and lessons didn't change, they are the same. Midi-chlorians are not mentioned because they aren't relevant to the story of the OT. Doesn't mean Luke doesn't know about them, or that Yoda didn't tell him about them (or about many other things). Midi-chlorians are only mentioned in the PT precisely because they are related to a central element of its story.

    But the Jedi lessons and wisdom remain the same, consistent between the two trilogies. It's only a matter of paying attention to the dialogue.

    "Fear is the path to the dark side."
    "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts."
    "Reach out. Sense your surroundings. Use your feelings you must."
    "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

    Etc...

    Luke is taught and warned about the same things. As far as skills and Jedi arts, wether he's taught in the Temple rooms and halls, in the cargo bay of a freighter or in a remote swamp is irrelevant. It's the teachings that matter the most.

    And of course, we have Luke confirming it himself: "I'm a Jedi, like my father before me."

    Not a new type of Jedi, but a Jedi. Like his father once was.

    He expected Luke to be ready for that possibility, instead of dismissing it outright.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  23. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    They believed vader couldn't be saved so they sent luke end the threat of vader ad they believed anakin was already long gone.

    Luke believed vader could be redeemed and thus anakin could be saved. Luke was right and both obi wan and yoda were wrong.
     
  24. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    May 2, 2020
    It deoends on a certain point of view.
    Luke was given the basic training of the force but not given the kind of training others including his father had been given before him. He was molded into a weapon to kill vader and the weapon proved to be his saviour.

    Luke never got the level of training and experience using the force that others got. He never spared with his master never went on any missions with him. He was thought the very basics and learned far more after.

    Its ironic that sending a jedi or a would be jedi to kill a sith is more a sith thing then a jedi.....
     
  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    What kind of training is that?

    He wasn't, as I've explained in my other posts.

    He learned and grew enough for Yoda to declare him ready for his trial.