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Saga Why did luke have to face vader to be a jedi...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darthvader1975, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Riv_Shiel

    Riv_Shiel Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2014
    I hear this take a lot, and it is one I used to buy into. But eventually I thought about it more, and it just doesn't stand up. We SEE much of Luke's training. There is no emphasis made on combat of any kind. He is primarily taught how to control his emotions and resist the dark side. Luke wasn't trained to be a weapon, he was trained to be an impenetrable beacon of light. What Yoda was trying most of all to prevent is Luke BECOMING another Vader. That is a much greater threat than Luke merely failing to defeat him.
    Vader represents all of Luke's weaknesses, insecurities, and vulnerabilities. If Luke is able to stand against him, and stay true to the Jedi way - then he deserves to be a Jedi. Being powerful enough to kill him is completely irrelevant to his worthiness as a Jedi and is NOT his Jedi trial.
     
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  2. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Indeed. He was long gone by that point. Vader was a serious threat, seemingly well beyond saving and had to be stopped one way or another.
     
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  3. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 2, 2020
    I disagree but let's move on.

    Luke doesn't need to face vader to be a jedi because when he reaches dagobah in jedi he is one.

    The last great test of any jedi and indeed sith is the ability to construct a lightsaber which in the deleted scene from jedi we see him doing.

    As vader says to him "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. You're skills are complete" Luke was sent to face and kill vader because obi wan wanted to atone for the mistake of not killing anakin on mustafar and being indirectly responsible for the killer that vader became. So yes he's used as a weapon by both obi wan and yoda to do a job neither could do at that point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  4. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Thank you.

    Your "explanation" goes against the actual dialogue of the film. This is why we are all disregarding what you're saying.
     
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  5. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Not all personal tests and challenges to become a Jedi are equal, obviously.
     
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  6. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think Luke had to successfully confront Vader to become a Jedi. The first time he rushes off and is nearly killed. He doesn't fall to the dark side; but falling into an abyss with your hand chopped off is not exactly victory. The second time he is more prepared. Yoda tells him he is not a Jedi yet until he confronts Vader. They know that Luke confronting Vader will likely result in one of them dead.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  7. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 2, 2020
    Its funny that when luke falls into the abyss it's almost like a suicide thing convinced he will die but of course he doesn't. The novelization of empire implies that although I could be wrong as I haven't read it in many years.

    In jedi luke says to the emperor... Soon I'll be dead and you with me.... He's not actually afraid to die.

    Anyway yeah yoda and obi wan expect one or both to die when they confront each other. It's a bit callous but I think both had pretty much given up on vader being redeemed. Luke says to obi wan that he can't kill his own father to which he gets the then the emperor has already won.

    Again not very jedi like from obi wan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    You're free to disregard what you want. But my explanation goes along, not against, the actual dialogue from the film. Your claim, on the other hand, is not corroborated by any dialogue. In fact, it's incompatible with what's told in the movie.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
  9. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    When Luke said “I can’t kill my own father”, it meant he personally didn’t feel he had it in him. A compassion the emperor was exploiting to draw Luke in, hence the emperor’s “victory”, according to Obi-Wan, because it did actually draw Luke in. What neither Jedi foresaw, nor the emperor for that matter, was Luke making the decision *after being drawn in* to forsake the sword as an alternative to joining the emperor. No one but Luke understood how deep his love for his father ran. His father was, after all, the only reason he wanted to be a Jedi in the first place. He completely tossed his own pride aside, something foreign to the Jedi. It was the first decision Luke made completely on his own, with confidence that it was his destiny.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
    Which is fine, but Obi-Wan's reply cements what the Jedi ultimately want. Obi-Wan flat out tells Luke that if he doesn't kill his father then the Emperor wins. I think you all need to go back and watch ROTJ.
     
  11. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    May 2, 2020
    Yeah obi wan wanted luke to kill vader and ultimately atone for the mistake obi wan made in relation to anakin.

    Luke refused to do that and even after he defeats vader he throws his lightsaber away rather then kill him who is at his mercy.
     
  12. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I think you need to go back and read the rest of my post
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  13. Jedi_Prophet77

    Jedi_Prophet77 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2017
    Vader was just the embodiment of what Luke really had to confront and defeat before he could be a true Jedi. I think this idea was introduced with the Death Star battle sequence at the end of the first film, where it cut between Luke and Vader at the very end. I think it was extended with the Dagobah 'dark side tree' vision sequence, where Luke sees himself in Vader. And it was certainly made explicit throughout the last half of Return of the Jedi. Luke's final battle in TLJ? Himself once again, and his loss of hope (in Ben, in the Rebellion, in the Jedi, in himself).
     
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  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    "The real test was the Sith he met along the way."
     
  15. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Because there was a strong bond between Luke and Vader after ESB, and without proving that Luke can resist the temptation of the dark side and the legacy of his father, he could never be a Jedi.
     
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  16. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Because the trilogy had to have the coolest possible ending
     
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  17. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

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    May 18, 2017
    yeah once Luke saw Vader kill Obi Wan you knew they were setting up a battle royale.
     
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  18. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    To reinforce these points:

    "A Jedi can’t kill for the sake of killing. The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him." — George Lucas

    "The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he's fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry so that when he fights his father, he's fighting in anger." — George Lucas
     
  19. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    If you lay out quotes from George Lucas you will find more lies than truths. The guy has lied through his teeth about this franchise since the beginning. When did these quotes come from, if you don't mind me asking.
     
  20. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I'll let Alexrd answer that if he wishes, but I think there's some burden on you to provide examples of Lucas lying for your post to be taken with appropriate weight.
     
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  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2020
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Quotes from George Lucas only lay the truth about Star Wars, nothing more. That you prefer to deny or dismiss that reality over alleged contradictions on topic that have nothing to do with what's being discussed (even going as far as labeling them as lies without any evidence) is your choice, not mine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  23. cubman987

    cubman987 Friendly Neighborhood Skywalker Saga/Fun&Games Mod star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Let's keep things civil in here please everyone and make sure we aren't bashing creators, thanks.
     
  24. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2021
    Yeah it's been mentioned that Lukes training was about emotional control. Yoda and Ben are definitely more concerned about him not falling to the dark side than anything else. They knew Vader wouldn't try to kill Luke and rather turn him, which is exactly what happens in TESB and ROTJ, Vader is toying with him. He could kill Luke instantly if he wanted to. Lukes Jedi skills are largely irrelevant.

    Knowing this and Luke knowing that Vader is his father in ROTJ, confronting him is the ultimate test of emotional control, which is the true test of being a Jedi. He's a better swordsman in ROTJ, but still very inexperienced as he even gets shot in the hand by one of Jabba's goons. Becoming epic with a lightsaber can come later, which of course he does. He doesn't even break a sweat cutting through all those dark troopers in TM.

    That's how I've always interpreted it anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  25. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I have never thought Luke was "intended" to kill Darth Vader as a Jedi/person himself. Nor do I think that's the reasoning for them training him. I just simply felt that it was the Jedis' responsibility to do away with the Sith. By the time Luke is being trained, he was really the only one that could've done it (not bringing all the EU side characters into it) at that point-being the only person left in their eyes with the power to do so. So when Obi-Wan says "you cannot escape your destiny-you must face Darth Vader again," he's not saying "killing Vader is your purpose," but rather he's saying "as a Jedi, it falls on you to destroy the Sith."