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Saga Why did luke have to face vader to be a jedi...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darthvader1975, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Though the fact that neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan actually say “kill” is noteworthy. Yoda says “confront” and Obi-Wan says “face”. It’s like there is some doubt, even to them, that this has to be a killing. Perhaps the willingness to kill if necessary is what Luke needed in their eyes.


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  2. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    But, the next two lines in the script said:

    LUKE
    I can't kill my own father.
    BEN
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    Sure sounds like Ben expected Luke to kill Vader.
     
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  3. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Yes, but read the last sentence of my post again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  4. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 29, 2016
    They don't necessarily want Luke to kill Vader for its own sake. They want him to do what he has to to end the war and the threat of the Sith. Luke draws the line before that due to Vader's blood connection.
    I don't think Obi-Wan was on an assassination mission to Mustafar per se, but he was willing to kill Vader. Same with Yoda and Sidious, though Yoda never felt the way Obi-Wan did for Anakin. Jedi are not assassins, nor is it against their nature to kill if it brings peace to the majority. Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted to test to see if Luke was willing to do what was NECESSARY to bring peace, that was his true test to being a Jedi. It was just circumstantial that confronting Vader likely meant kill or be killed.
     
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  5. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I agree with almost everything you say here, though I wouldn’t say Yoda and Obi-wan were testing Luke , per se. I think it’s just that the only thing they were 100% certain of was that Luke had to at least face him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  6. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    I think Obi-Wan simply wanted Anakin dead. When Luke had told him that he could not kill his own father (not Vader or Anakin, but "his father"), Obi-Wan reacted with disappointment. I don't know how Yoda felt.
     
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  7. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Yes, but I think the suggestion here is that his disappointment can also easily be read as being with Luke’s unwillingness to kill Vader if necessary. That’s it’s more about Luke’s readiness than the final result, because if Luke is unwilling to kill Vader, the Emperor, to his mind, can easily draw Luke in.


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  8. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    I think that is the general idea, it's Luke that creates the third option and is willing to die for it.
     
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Luke didn't create any third option. Luke, in the face of a defeated Vader, resisted to give in to the dark side any further by murdering him. He chose to stay true to his Jedi teachings and would rather die as a Jedi than fall and live as the Emperor's servant. This is echoed by Anakin's fight against Dooku. Even after having Dooku defeated, Anakin murdered him anyway, which is not the Jedi way (as he ends up acknowledging). Both Anakin and Luke gave into their fear, anger and hate, which they shouldn't have done, but only Luke was able to resist before it was too late.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  10. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    Respecfully I don't see it that way. Luke could never have defeated Palpatine on his own or even Vader if he had wanted to kill Luke himself. He resists the dark side and becomes a Jedi, then Luke plays the wild card and throws his lightsaber away, gambling that his father will help him because of the good he senses in him. An outcome that Ben, Yoda and Palpatine didn't forsee.
     
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    He wasn't there to defeat Palpatine. Palpatine was out of his league. He was there to face Vader. He briefly gave into his fear and anger when Vader threatened to turn Leia and came back to his senses before it was too late. Then Palpatine goaded him to give into his hate and kill Vader, which Luke refused to do. And as proof of his total refusal, he threw away his weapon. Not because he expected Vader to do something, but because he would rather die as a Jedi, by staying true to his Jedi teachings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
  12. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    it was his trial...
    i guess defeating Maul was Obi Wans
     
  13. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    But why then did he give himself up on Endor? He knew Vader would take him to Palpatine. I think his plan was to make sure Palpatine was on the Death Star when the fleet arrives. When he learns Palpatine knows about the attack and it's a trap he's like 'oh sh...' so he goes for the kill. Vader intervenes and it all kicks off.
     
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    That's right.

    "Soon I will be dead, and you with me."

    He wasn't speaking about himself defeating Palpatine.

    Palpatine was taunting him with fear and hopelessness.
     
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  15. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    I didn't say he was speaking about himself defeating Palpatine. This is starting to circle and your misunderstanding what I'm writing so respectfully I will say no more.
     
  16. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I will have to take issue with this and side with @Alexrd. Luke’s dialogue to Leia is “he won’t turn me over to the emperor. I can save him, I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try.”


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  17. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    A good point, I concede that. So I guess he thought he could turn Vader back somehow on Endor then they would face Palpatine together? I do feel like getting rid of Palpatine somehow is in there somewhere. The rebels decide now is the time to attack because they know he's currently aboard the Death Star.

    Just taking on Vader for the sake of becoming a Jedi is a suicide mission, it would be like winning a trophy then being executed immediatly. Whether on Endor in an imperial base on his own or on the Death Star in front of Palpatine. What was he thinking?
     
  18. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think Luke is trying to save his father and feels he must try. Vader taking him to the Emperor and him being blown up is plan B if it fails. Luke probably figures if both plans failed they are screwed anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  19. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    That makes sense to me. I don't think becoming a Jedi was even on his mind.
     
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  20. Darth_Dave_1984

    Darth_Dave_1984 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 20, 2021
    That is 100% the obvious and simple motivation for turning himself in. That and the fact he knows Vader can sense his presence, so he's endangering the mission by staying with the rest of the group. The annoying bit is I've always known that, this thread was making me second guess myself and over analyze it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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  21. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Remember that the whole reason Luke wanted to be a Jedi in the first place was to honor his father. “I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father. “ When he learns that his father failed the Jedi, his overall desire splits. He still wants to be a Jedi, but the reality of his father’s failure divides his heart about it. The only way he thinks the two can be reconciled is if his father becomes his role model again. The irony is that he ends up becoming a role model for his father by rejecting the Dark Side’s claim on his soul. Then his father in turn becomes the hero he needs by sacrificing himself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
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