PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

Both the movie and TCW stick to the fact that the Jedi know that he died within a certain period of time. How, when and where may be a mystery, but that's the point. The Sith wanted the Jedi to consider the possibility that he might have ordered the army.

What TCW also reveals is why the Sith chose the identity of Sifo-Dyas as opposed to some other Jedi. He had shared his vision of the coming war with the Jedi Council. But all of this is extra material, and one doesn't need to know this in order to understand what's going on in AOTC.

 

It's a great addition that Sifo-Dyas foresaw the war and pushed for the creation of an army before TPM only to be over ruled by the Jedi Council. It gives a bit of credibility to the Jedi willingly accepting the army. It also adds a new layer to Yoda and Mace Windu's reaction to Obi-Wan's report. When they look at each other so much is going on. There is a layer of secrecy. How did they not see this in the Force? They are both remembering how they dismissed Sifo-Dyas visions. They're so caught up in that it's like they don't even answer Obi-Wan on the question of when Sifo-Dyas died. I guess for them that's less important than the fact this army exists and was not created legally by the senate or the Jedi.

I was surprised to see Wookiepedia says Sifo-Dyas is the one who ordered the Clone Army as if it's fact.

I thought The Clone Wars left that ambiguous. I also think it helps narrow down who ordered the army to Sifo-Dyas, Dooku, (Less likley since the Kamanoians know him Tyrannus) or Sidious pretending to be Sifo-Dyas.)

 

Well, it's Wookieepedia after all...

The fact is that there's nothing in TCW that states Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. On the contrary, it all points toward Dooku:

- Sifo-Dyas was on Oba Diah at Valorum's request (along with Silman, the Chancellor's assistant).
- Dyas was then sent to Felucia at the request of the Jedi Council.
- While leaving Oba Diah, the Pykes shot down Dyas' ship and killed him, at Tyranus request.
- The Pykes recovered Dyas' body and sent it to Tyranus.
- - Tyranus/Dooku went to Felucia with Dyas' body where the Felucians cremated it.
- The Pykes also secretly recovered Silman, who was still alive, and kept him locked up in the event that they need to bargain with the Jedi for the crime of murdering one of their own.
- Silman confirms to the Jedi that someone wanted to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas.

If Dyas had allied himself with Dooku/Tyranus and actually ordered the army, there would be no need to pretend to be Sifo-Dyas. Dooku would only need to get rid of him and take charge of the project.

 

Wookieepedia got it from the Databank.

https://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas

SIFO-DYAS
A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.

As to why Dooku "pretended to be Sifo-Dyas" - presumably, the commission was in a very early stage when Sifo-Dyas was killed, and some things still needed to be settled.

 

What things? Either he ordered the clones or not. That's the only thing he's credited for. He's not credited for paying for the order or even hire the template. If he did place the order, there's no need for someone else to use his identity. If he didn't, the Sith would need to use his identity to place the order. It's established that they did use his identity. Since they did, there was no need to let the real Sifo-Dyas approach the Kaminoans, even if he wanted to. Why risk it? The Sith could do it (and did it) all by themselves and be in complete control the whole time.

I'd rather go by what's presented in both the AOTC and TCW than by a StarWars.com description that doesn't corroborate the source material. But that's just me...

 

Here's my question - if Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas to order the Clone Army in person or via hologram from the Kaminoans, why (or how) did he later switch identities to be Tyrannus when communicating with the Kaminoans? Aren't the Kaminoans going to recognize it's the same guy?

I just rewatched Tyranus's communication via hologram to the Kaminoans about the faulty inhibitor chip. This is what Dooku - as Tyrannus - says

Can Dooku be both Sifo-Dyas and Tyrannus? Does this rule out Dooku as the one to order the army? The Sifo-Dias name drop makes me wonder if Dias really did order the army.

Some episodes later a crazed Silman tells Obi-Wan and Anakin before Dooku force chokes him to death.

Is Silman saying Sifo-Dyas was killed before ordering the army? Who is the "someone powerful?" Does this mean Dooku? Did Darth Sidious place the actual order and then turned operations over to Dooku?

In that same episodes during the duel between Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Dooku we get this bit of dialogue.

What does this mean? How much truth is in this?

 

Holograms can be faked. And the Kaminoans don't necessarily know how Tyranus looks like.

Yes, Dooku can be (or is) both Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus. Remember that, to the Kaminoans, Sifo-Dyas did order the army. Only the Sith know that it wasn't the real Sifo-Dyas.

Yes.

Tyranus was 'someone powerful'. Remember what Lom says:

That doesn't mean Sidious wasn't involved in some capacity. Dooku was serving him, so he might have helped in some way, if needed.

The truth is that lies and deceit are Dooku's ways now.

 

That appears to be what the writer of that Databank entry has decided, at least.

 

But that's always been true to the Kaminoans, ever since AOTC. To them, Sifo-Dyas was the one who placed the order.

 

My assumption is that he faked a hologram of Sifo-Dyas (which we know can be done from both TPM and TCW) to place the initial order. As Sifo-Dyas, he delegated secret authority to Tyranus, and then from that point forward he used his Tyranus persona to interact with the Kaminoans. The reason for this strikes me as obvious: By only posing as Sifo-Dyas once, at the beginning, Dooku minimizes the amount of conflict the Jedi might discern between Sifo-Dyas's known time of death and his purported involvement in the creation of the army.

e: Now, it is possible that Sifo-Dyas was planning on doing just what the Sith ended up doing. In fact, Dooku claims to Obi-Wan that he was in fact working with Sifo-Dyas (though Obi-Wan accuses him of lying, which muddies the waters further). However, if so, it can't have ever gotten past the planning stages. Though unsure, the Jedi have a general idea of when they think Sifo-Dyas was killed, and that tentative timeline would seemingly preclude Sifo-Dyas from having ordered the army. It would have made much more sense for the Sith to pose as Sifo-Dyas while he was still alive and then kill him, but they didn't do that, so they were likely forced into this position out of necessity. My theory is that Sifo-Dyas confided in fellow renegade Dooku about his plans to contract the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic, giving Sidious the idea for this phase of his plot. However, Sidious knew that Sifo-Dyas would prove too hard to control, and so he would have to be eliminated. Shortly after the Sith's discovery of Sifo-Dyas's intentions, but before they could put their own plans into motion, Sifo-Dyas was sent on his mission to Oba Diah. Recognizing a very narrow window of opportunity to eliminate Sifo-Dyas in a way which could never be traced back to them, the Sith seized it, reasoning that the circumstances of his death would leave enough room for ambiguity that the benefits of this course of action outweighed the risks. Dooku then went through process of arranging the vast amounts of untraceable funds necessary for the order, and then posed as Sifo-Dyas to place it with the Kaminoans.

This is obviously just speculation though. I don't think we'll ever truly know exactly what happened, and this seems to be by design.

 

I'd combine it with the Databank version to have just a little more actual involvement from Sifo-Dyas at the beginning - but the basic idea - only a little posing as Sifo-Dyas, and most of the work to get the army created being done by the Sith, seems sound.

 

I don't see how it could possibly make sense for Sifo-Dyas to have actually placed the order. I don't care what the Databank says. It doesn't fit with Attack of the Clones, where the suspicious timeline of Sifo-Dyas's death is placed as a clue, and the revelation of the Sith's involvement is later presented as the explanation.

 

In the AOTC novelization, Yoda and Mace talk about it after Obi-Wan's finished calling them:

"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"
"When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.


which may be why Legends didn't try to exonerate Sifo-Dyas - with Labyrinth of Evil pinning the first contact with the Kaminoans, on him.


Sidious had recognized in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice—an equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku's commitment.
One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change, Sidious had told him. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it.
And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi Order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes ...
Ten years passed.

It is possible that the Databank writers (Dave Filoni? Pablo Hidalgo? Leland Chee?) had the Legends version of Ordering The Clone Army in mind when they wrote that entry - and chose not to retcon it away.

 

That begs the question: how exactly would he do it? We are to assume that Sifo-Dyas was not a fallen Jedi like Dooku. As a Jedi, he didn't have a large amount of funds to pay for the army.

If he did plan and asked Dooku for help, it implies that he was aware that Dooku had fallen, which is even more contrived and dubious.

 

Here is the thing, ANH and the OT is in many ways a simple fairy-tale and by simple I do not mean bad.
But people have said that the PT is so much more than that, it is so deep, clever, with political machinations and detailed plots and intrigue.

So then I look at the films in that light and see if they hold up under that scrutiny.
And to me, they don't.

If someone says "These films are so very clever and intricate" and then turns around and say "Don't think about it so much, just enjoy it." That is not an argument I buy.

Now one can say, "Well that is what fans say, not Lucas."
But I do think the PT do attempt to be more complicated, to have more grey characters and less obvious heroes and villains.
And in AotC I think the film very much tried to have a detective/mystery plot going on with Obi-Wan and Kamino.

But my problem is that the writing was not up to par.
When writing a simple story, again simple does not mean bad, you can be fairly general and not go into great detail about motivation, logic or intricate details.
But when you are doing a mystery/detective story, you have to pay more attention to those things.

If the film wanted the Jedi to think that Sifo-Dyas really did this, then a) don't have Obi-Wan say that that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. b) Have Jango know who Sifo-Dyas was but mention Tyrannus, whom we later learn to be Dooku.
And c) have Mace and Yoda mention that it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did this but they will look into it.
That would show the audience that the Jedi at least consider that one of their own could have done this and thus they are more accepting of the army. But we know more.

Well it doesn't to me, some of the elements are all too real.
Anakin's mother is kidnapped and beaten to death. Anakin goes nuts and murders a whole village of men, women and children.
There is political plotting with separatists wanting to break free from the republic.
Why and what do they want? The film does not say.

[/QUOTE]

But the question is, was the film trying to tell the Jedi and the audience that the clone army is very fishy and it was almost certainly ordered under a false name?
Or did the film try to give the Jedi enough reason to think that Sifo-Dyas did it but the audience knows more and knows he didn't?
Or was the film trying to say that Sifo-Dyas really was behind the clone army?

I think the third is totally unlikely based on what is in the film.

And to me the second does not work either as the Jedi learn far too much for them to go "Well this is a bit strange but I guess Sifo-Dyas really did this so no worries." "Derp."
They would have to be massively stupid for them to think this.

But if it is the first, then some sort of follow up is needed but we never get that.
Based on what I have read, Lucas did plan to go back to the Sifo-Dyas plot in RotS but when he was writing that film I think he realized that it was too full of plot already.

So this plot thread is just ignored.

Various EU have dealt with it but with somewhat different results based on what I've read here.
Some have Sifo-Dyas as the one who ordered it and the Jedi know it.
Other have it be Dooku and the Jedi know that as well.

It is not a huge issue but discarded plot points tend to bug me.

Or he is puzzled because he has just been told something impossible, that a Jedi master he knows to be dead, ordered a clone army after his death.
Just like President Muffley was puzzled how someone other than him could order a nuclear strike.

And could Mace and Yoda say that Obi-Wan was correct? He did not give them an exact date of the order, just "Almost ten years ago".
If Sifo-Dyas was killed "almost ten years ago" as Obi-Wan said earlier, they can not confirm or deny.
But they don't ask Obi-wan for details, nor do they question him.
If Sifo-Dyas was killed ten or more years ago, then they could confirm what he said but he asks them if the council approved of this.
So they need to answer this first and they deny it. Then they say "Whoever" about the person behind this.
Pretty much confirming what Obi-Wan said about Sifo-Dyas.
Had they said "Sifo-Dyas or whoever..." then that would indicate that they consider him as possibly being involved.

And they have lots of reasons to be confused.
Their archives have been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done.
A clone army has been ordered, seemingly by a dead Jedi Master and apparently with the approval of the senate.
The template of the army was involved in a plot to kill senator Amidala, an outspoken opponent against the republic getting an army.
So that they know or at least strongly suspect that Sifo-Dyas was involved, that still leaves the big question of who did this and why.
Plus they are worried that they did not sense this.

[/QUOTE]

I have been involved in a fair few of those discussions and quite often, various EU sources came up that said that Sifo-Dyas really did this and the Jedi know it.
"Labyrinth of Evil" is one book that I think was brought up where this issue is talked about.
Another book, some novelization of AotC I guess, had Obi-wan think that Sifo-Dyas was killed 11 or 12 years ago. So quite a while before he supposedly ordered the army.
Then the official site and later still the TCW series came into play.

And there I can remember the talk about that Sifo-Dyas was death was moved to happen while Valorum was chancellor, so before or during the start of TPM. Which would make his death ten or more years ago and thus confirming what Obi-Wan said.

In closing, given how often this has been talked about and how many different conclusions people have made about who really ordered the clone army, what do the Jedi think and all that.
Then to me it is clear that the film didn't really explain this plot point very well.
And just how often EU is brought in to explain this is another reason why I think this.
Add to this the issue that some EU makes it look like Sifo-Dyas really was behind this, not really meshing with what the film say since it very much make it look like Dooku did this.
If the film had done it's job, you would not need books, comics and TV episodes to make sense of this.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Sifo-Dyas is painted as someone who is not on the best terms with the Council - being removed from it for insisting "The Republic needs an army".

Makes sense that he'd team up with what he sees as someone with similar views - that the Jedi Council are blind to what the galaxy really needs.

 

Why would it imply he knew Dooku had fallen? All it implies is that he thought Dooku was sympathetic to his thinking and wanted to help.

I'm not saying this is the answer. I'm just saying it's plausible that it was Sifo-Dyas's idea. It would explain why the Sith were able to find such a perfect fall guy--it's because the fall guy was the one who gave them the idea in the first place.

Note again that I do agree it doesn't make much sense for Sifo-Dyas himself to have placed the order.

 

or - He could've used a Clawdite to impersonate Syfo-Dyas .

 

So is Qui-Gon. That doesn't mean he wouldn't respect the Council's decisions.

And who exactly would convince that the Republic would accept the army in the first place? And how? Ordering an army, in and on itself doesn't mean it would be used. Only the Sith could count and work on that. Another indication that the Sith, not Sifo-Dyas, was behind it.

By working behind the Jedi and the Republic's back? By going against his Jedi teachings and reclaiming his possessions?

All Sifo-Dyas can be credited for is for advocating the creation of an army (not necessarily a clone army) to protect the Republic. I'd say how, when and where one could get said army was the Sith idea. The fact that he advocated for the army is what made the Sith use his identity to begin with, because the Jedi could at least find it plausible that the guy who foresaw and warned about the war could make arragements to prepare for it.

 

What follows is pure speculation on my part for how things might have gone down. I think someone went to Kamino in person to order the army. That seems to be what they are saying in Attack of the Clones. What if:


Sifo-Dyas is taken off the Jedi Council but continues to have visions of an impending war that the Republic and Jedi will need an army for. Believing these visions will come to pass, Sifo-Dyas takes it upon himself to order the army. Sifo-Dyas looks for help and confides about his visions to an old friend and fellow disillusioned Jedi / exJedi Dooku. Dooku not only believes him but pledges to help plan and pay for this army.


Then one of two things happen.


1) In the vision Sifo-Dyas sees some Jedi will turn to the darkside becoming dangerous enemies. Something is needed in the Clones to prevent these Dark Jedi manipulating the soldiers' minds. And the Jedi as a whole can not know about this fail safe or it won't be effective.

Sifo-Dyas goes to Kamino and orders the army himself setting up the inhibitor chips and Order 66. Count Dooku is made the Co-Sign or backup if anything should happen to Sifo-Dyas. After that the Sith put a hit out on Sifo-Dyas.

Lots of problems with this. Is Dooku going by his name Dooku, which we know he doesn't. Is Sifo-Dyas really going to call him Tyranus when setting this up? Would the Sith trust Sifo-Dyas to do things the way they need him to and not to tell anyone about the army before killing him. The biggest pro is a real Jedi sets up the army which makes it more plausible for the Jedi Order to accept. Also the Kaminoans aren't inadvertently or purposely covering up a false identify.


2) Once all the plans for the army are set Dooku orders the hit on Sifo-Dyas. The Sith ad Chips and Order 66 to the plan. Then Darth Sidious, pretending to be Sifo-Dyas orders the army and sets Tyranus up as the backup contact. Instead of using money that can trace back to Dooku, the army is paid for by the Sith, or actual diverted senate money. The pros are it's an all Sith plan and gives them control from the start. Also it's possible for the army to be ordered after Sifo-Dyas dies and Darth Maul has died making Dooku the apprentice. Cons - Darth Sidious would have to stick his neck out. A real Jedi does not order the army.

 

Maybe in the newcanon, like in the Darth Plagueis novel, the Sith are involved with the Intergalactic Banking Clan?

Sidious's master Plagueis was a major figure in it. Even if he died much earlier than in Legends, Sidious may still be able to control its funds, due to him taking all his master's stuff (including Banking Clan passwords?) when he died.

 

The Sith are without a doubt flush with money. Cash is not an issue at all. What we see in the movies and on the Clone Wars proves that. From the most elite Space Ships, to badass weapons, and cutting edge tech. Sidious owns an entire factory on Coruscant. We don't know where it comes from or to what extent, but the evidence is on screen that they can bank roll their projects. Seeing how Darth Maul sets up shop in The Clone Wars gives us an idea how Sith would start at step one to amass funds through use of force. Now image 1,000 years of that.

I like this idea. A Sifo-Dyas doppelgänger. My first thought was Zam Wessle, except I don't think the Sith woudl bring in a Clawdite for this job. If they did they'd have to kill them right after. No one can know about the Clone Army. However is it possible that through some use of Dark Side Alchomy or Dark Magix Dooku or Sidious were able to actually look like Sifo-Dyas to go in person to set up the deal to order the army?

It's interesting that the Pykes gave Tyrannus Sifo-Dyas's body. That could have been just so they could burn it on Felicuia. But we saw the powers Palpatine was able to use on Yoda at the Sith Homeworld with a drop of Dooku's blood. Where the Sith somehow able to use Sifo-Dyas body and the darkside to flawlessly impersonate him?

And I'm still not 100% convinced the face of the Emperor wasn't always Palpatine's real face. So much mystery.

 

That's why I don't buy that he was aware that Dooku was evil at first, but rather that if he was involved, Dooku convinced Sifo-Dyas that they were going to use the clones to help the Republic and then Dooku decided to drop a bomb on him, quite literally. It is also equally plausible that Palpatine dressed as Sidious and placed the order himself, using Sifo-Dyas name and then redirected all concerns to Tyranus.

A. Having Obi-wan say that he died is for the audience to realize that something is wonky.

B. Having Jango saying that he knew Sifo-Dyas isn't important because he doesn't have to know him, or have heard of him, to take a job. Remember, he's a mercenary. He's only in this for the money and for a son.

C. Mace and Yoda wanting to question Jango is essentially investigating the Clone Army, because he is their only clue as to what's going on.

We are told. They want power and control, which they feel that they are losing because of the Republic.

It's a combination of one and two. The Jedi think that there is something odd as they didn't authorize the creation of the Clone Army as "Sifo-Dyas" claimed, which Lama Su relays to Obi-wan. But the Council cannot determine if he did or not, because he is dead and Jango, their only clue, is dead. They think that he must have done it and that someone was trying to hide the clones, but to what end, is unknown to them. They cannot do anything about it, because the Republic needs the Clone Army and they have no choice but to go along with it.

Then we have TCW, which reveals to them that he didn't do it, but Dooku did and is Tyranus, the one who hired Jango. But they still do not know if the Clone Army has a greater purpose or not.

 

If someone went to Kamino in person.
Was it Sifo-Dyas?
If so, did he say who the template would be?
If he did, then he would have to know that Jango had been hired.

If not, why did the Kamino accept Jango as the template?
Did he show up and say "I am your new template". Since he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, he could not have used that name when he arrived.

If someone did go to Kamino in person, did the Kamino people see this person's face?
If yes, then the Jedi could show the Kamino a picture of Sifo-Dyas and ask if they know who that is.
If they do, then that is proof that Sifo-Dyas did order the army. If no, then they know for sure that Sifo-Dyas was not involved.
If it was Dooku and he did show his face, then since he is now the leader of the seps, that could give rise to questions if the Kamino ever see him on the news.
If it was Palpatine and he did show his face, how could they not know that he was the chancellor of the Republic?

So if it was not Sifo-Dyas, did this person wear a mask or have some sort of disguise?
A mask might seem odd, a disguise makes more sense.

If no one went there is person, was all just via "phone" or "holograms"?

Did the Kamino people know about Tyrannus?
Jango mentions his name and Taun We is there but says nothing.
Did Obi-Wan ask her about who Tyrannus is?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Why? Can't Sifo-Dyas go to Kamino to talk about prices and terms first? Then the Kaminons could tell him what to look for in a template? Maybe Sifo-Dyas wouldn't have picked Jango Fett as the template. Maybe he'd go with someone more selflessly heroic. And perhaps picking the template is the first place in the plan where the Sith need to deviate from what a Jedi would have done.

Yes. We see on The Clone Wars that the highups like Lama Su and top Cloning Scientists are in direct contact with the man named Tyrannus. It seems that this is not a regular occurrence, but all parties are aware of Sifo-Dyas origally set this in motion and the inhibitor chips with Order 66. However it is unclear if Lama Su knows the army is going to be used against the Jedi as a trick or if it's all actually a failsafe and part of the plan. Either way it's a job for the Kaminoans and they are slightly annoyed by the Jedi not looking at the clones as merchandise.

What if it was a sort of Force Mask that really made someone appear to be Sifo-Dyas. Think of it like the force equivalent of a Clawdite. It's possible Palpatine is already concealing his true Sith appearance. (But that's whole other debate.)

Still usually the simplest answer is the best and most likely. If it quacks like a Sifo-Dyas, swims like a Sifo-Dyas, and looks like a Sifo-Dyas..... Is it most likely a Sifo-Dyas?

Who do you think visited Kamino to personal seal the deal with the cloners?