PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

In the film, Obi-Wan says that "Sifo-Dyas" PLACED an order for a clone army.
So "Sifo-Dyas" did not just ask about prices and what not, this person placed the order.
And said that he was acting on behalf of the senate.

So the person that placed the order, if it really was Sifo-Dyas, could he have mentioned Jango?
Doubtful since he did not hire him.

The shooting script makes it clear that the person who ordered the army mentioned Jango so the Kamino people knew to expect him. If course this was Sido-Dyas, a Jedi that never existed.

Again I am going by the films here as I don't watch TCW.
And in the film if they knew or not is not clear.

But if they did know about him, did the Jedi ask them about this Tyrannus?
No reason not to.

This would be more like a disguise, which I did mention.

Simplest answer?
Let's see, the template has never heard of Sifo-Dyas and is working for Dooku.
Sifo-Dyas is dead and was apparently killed before the army was ordered.
Doing this, is at the very least illegal and possibly treason, would a Jedi Master act in this manner?
A Jedi Master would not have anywhere near the amount of money needed to pay for this.

So simplest answer would be, Sifo-Dyas had ZERO to do with this.

[/QUOTE]

Based on the film?
Well either Sifo-Dyas was killed for reasons unconnected with the Sith. But Dooku knew him and knew that he was recently killed so they decided to use his name when placing the order.
Or the sith had him killed just so they could use his name when making the order.

Who went?
Either Dooku or Palpatine but both would likely have some sort of disguise.
Dooku is a bit more likely as Palpatine would be more busy and Dooku was the one who hired Jango and so could simply tell the Kamino people to expect him.

Then Dooku deleted Kamino from the Jedi archives to prevent any Jedi from going there.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Watch it. Go by it. You'll love it.

Bye.
Dry Erase Board Merrimack

 

^ From the sound of it, it seems like this would’ve been a very easy open-shut case. Given what we know of the Jedi, why would Sifo-Dyas go against them by making the order for the Clones? Much less have any money? We also know Jango, a template, works for Dooku who would have had the money given his family title (he likely re-claimed after he left the Jedi.)

Maybe Sifo-Dyas knew what Dooku was about to do, tried to warn the Jedi but was killed?

 

Exactly, the Jedi are given so many clues that points to someone other than Sifo-Dyas as being behind this.
So it makes very little sense that they would assume that he did this in light of all that they know.
And they would know Sifo-Dyas far better than us and would know if he was capable of doing this.

It won't really matter in this regard.
I have read the LotR and Harry Potter books, but when it comes to debating the FILMS, I will judge the films as films. I won't use my book knowledge to smooth over flaws in the films.
So that Harry suddenly has a mirror in the last two films that was not established. That is a flaw of the films. I know where it came from but the films did not show it.

I have a simple motto, any film has to be able to stand on it's own.
If it needs books, comics, TV series, reading the script or whatever to make sense.
Then the film has not done it's job properly.

I am aware of the backstory of Nero in JJ's first Trek film and that backstory made him a more well rounded character. But my opinion of the character in the film is an emo with a trident.
That the tie-in comics made him better does not matter, I go by what is in the film.

Bye.
Mr "Insert-Name-Here."

 

The difference with the Clone Wars and the Star Wars films is the author of the movies, George Lucas, includes the Clone Wars as part of his Star Wars series on the same level as the movies. So excluding the series is less akin to comparing Harry Potter Books to Harry Potter Movies, and more like reading the Harry Potter books and deciding to skip the 6th one. Or reading Lord of the Rings but not the Hobbit.

 

How the Sith used Sifo-Dyas identity is not really important. Fake hologram, disguised Sidious/Dooku/someone else, whatever... It's a matter of imagination. My point is that Dyas is not a fallen Jedi, where he would betray everything he and what the Jedi stand for to get his way. There's no hint or reason to think that. On the other hand, we do know that Dooku had fallen. Dooku had the inside knowledge to know that Dyas would be a good alias (had visions of a war, warned about the need of an army), he would know of his wereabouts when he needed to kill him, he had access to the Archives, had the money to fund the army and hired the template. The Sith literally don't need Dyas at any point. But they needed him dead at a certain time (mysteriously and confusingly if possible, so that the Jedi, when the time comes, can entertain the possibility that he ordered the army). That way they can have complete control over their plan.

 

I totally agree with you about this, but we actually don't know that. There is a big gap in details between when Sifo-Dyas left the Jedi council and when he died. For all we know Sifo-Dyas saw more of the future and pulled a Pong-Krell and joined the Dark Side. Sifo-Dyas might even have linked up with Darth Sidious and it was Sifo-Dyas that brought Dooku into all of this.

I don't think that is the case, but it's interesting on The Clone Wars that Yoda is shown an illusion of captured Master Sifo-Dyas turned to the darkside on Moriban.

Agreed. The important point isn't the details of how it went down but the end result.

 

But that's just it, we would know if that was the case (that he had fallen).

"I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back, they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person — Darth Tyranus — and that Darth Tyranus is the one who started the clones." — George Lucas

 

Not very good examples as the Harry Potter books were made and sold as books within a series.
The PT were made and sold as ep 1, 2 and 3 of the SW saga, which included the three OT films, nothing else.
The PT did not have signs saying "You need to see TCW before seeing this movie."
Which would have been kind of hard since TCW was made after RotS.

The LotR books were made and sold as a sequel to the Hobbit book and I read LotR many years before I read the Hobbit but there was no issue as LotR included quick summaries of the relevant parts of the Hobbit.
So LotR stood in it's own, you did not need to read the Hobbit in order to follow the story.

If all this about Sifo-Dyas leaving the council, which is not hinted at in the film, that he did order the army, he had visions, he argued for an army etc.
IF the audience seeing the films were supposed to be aware of them, then they should be IN the film.
And it would not be that hard to drop some stuff about that, have Obi-Wan not say the bit about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the army was ordered and have him ask if Sifo-Dyas did have the ok of the council to do this. Yoda and Mace say no but mention that Sifo-Dyas did argue for a republic army and thus it is possible that he could have done this.
It would take a few lines of dialogue, nothing more.

Lastly, having Sifo-Dyas really being involved is a bit unsatisfactory form a story and character viewpoint.
The Clone army is a pretty important plot point in both AotC and RotS and having it come from a character we never see, we know next to nothing about and if he really did this, we have no idea why, how the Sith got involved and all that.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

And it would’ve kept him as a suspect. We would know he was once a Jedi and argued for a Republican army — logically Obi-Wan would want to investigate this trail and find out his personal thoughts and learn how the Sith got involved.

Two routes I’m thinking of now:

Either Sifo-Dyas was ambushed by the Sith, killed and the Clone Army placed under his name.

Sifo-Dyas worked with the Sith. This would’ve been the last thing the Jedi would ever conceive a fellow Jedi to do.

 

Option one is better, IMO.

 

Is there a 3rd route? Sifo-Dyas worked with Dooku unaware that he was actually working with the Sith?

Still if Sifo-Dyas had zero to do with the creation of the army, that would be interesting. His past with council alone would enough to make his ordering the army plausible.

 

Although I enjoy having TCW and Rebels etc to help fill out minor details aka "easter eggs," mainly as fan enjoyment, I do agree with this statement here. The addition of the books/games/comics etc. is a nice add-on, but it should not be needed in order to explain things that were unclear in the film.

 

haven't gone through the whole thread but going from the title, the Jedi accepted the Clone Army cuz they needed an army at that particular moment to go to Geonosis. Don't look a gift army in the mouth!

 

Going just by the movies, which I agree they should be able to stand by themselves, I've always understood it to have gone down something like this:

1) The real Sifo-Dyas is killed by the Sith
2) Kamino Cloning Industries is contacted by "Sifo-Dyas", who orders one clone army, to be picked up by the Galactic Republic at a later date. "Sifo-Dyas" supplies the necessary funds as well as a suitable template to be cloned, and that's all the Kaminoans care about. Same way Han doesn't care why Obi-wan wants to avoid Imperial entanglements, just how much he's willing to pay to get to Alderaan.
3) The Jedi discover SIfo-Dyas death. We don't get any details on this but I interpreted it as there is concrete evidence he died, as opposed to just being missing and presumed dead. For me this means his body was recovered in some form, or at the very least his ship was found in a condition where anyone still on board was dead, and he didn't turn up anywhere you could get to by escape pod.
4) Dooku deletes Kamino from the archive's memory, correctly assuming that no one else in the order has ever heard of Kamino so they won't notice it's missing. This way no one in the next 10 years accidentally uncovers the clone army while using Space Google, and possibly, depending on how Star Wars works, prevents Obi-wan from just calling ahead and getting the "we've been expecting you" while still on Coruscant.
5) The Kaminoans are glad to see Kenobi, because it's been almost 10 years since they last heard from "Sifo-Dyas" and they're starting to wonder if they've built this army for nothing. They're clearly very proud of their work, so even though they were already paid they'd still be unsatisfied if nobody picked the order up.
6) Obi-wan tells them that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost 10 years ago. This explains why they hadn't heard from him again. Obi-wan thinks he was actually killed even before he could have placed the order, but doesn't feel it necessary to tell them that.
7) Obi-wan contacts the Jedi Council with what he's discovered, including the apparent contradiction in the timeline. They suggest the possibility that the Kaminoans are lying about Sifo-Dyas' involvement but Obi-wan thinks they truly believe it was Sifo-Dyas who placed the order. This leaves two possibilities:
A) Someone else ordered the army, claiming to be Sifo-Dyas
B) Sifo-Dyas didn't die when they thought he did. This means either they didn't find his body or something like, he was last heard from on Monday, they found him on Friday and concluded he had been killed on Monday. The Kaminoans say they talked to him on Wednesday. The Jedi believe he was already dead by then but can't conclusively deny the possibility he had just gone off the grid because he was engaging in illegal activities.
8) Events force the Republic to deploy their newfound army to Geonosis. Jango Fett is killed so they can't question him anymore. The clones prove that whoever ordered them, they are capable and willing to oppose the Separatist forces when the Jedi alone could not. They were still interested in the origin of the clones if they could discover it, but if not it seemed like there was no harm in taking advantage of them in the meantime. If for some reason they suspected Dooku was secretly behind them they would assume they would have been betrayed at Geonosis instead of fighting against Dooku's forces.

Nothing is described about Sifo-Dyas himself in the movies but it can be reasonably inferred that they would choose a target with at least some degree of plausibility, as opposed to like, a super pacifist. So it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that the real Sifo-Dyas was to some degree, knowingly or unknowingly, involved in the plot. There's also the always interesting discussing of what the Sith's actual original plans were vs what they improvised, and how much of that was explicitly there doing vs trusting their visions of the future. (ex- "Jango, leave a Kamino Sabre dart where the Jedi will find it" vs say hiring Jango as the template so that in 10 years when Nute puts a bounty on a certain Senator from Naboo events will transpire in a way that benefits the Sith's goals.)

 

Nothing in TCW is needed to explain anything in the films.

 

You guys realized that George Lucas made the The Clone Wars to be on the same level as the movies. They're not like the comics and books which were wiped away in 2015. So if we are talking about Sifo-Dyas Clone Wars can't be dismissed.

 

It can be dismissed in the sense that the movies already provide the required information for the audience to understand what happened. If anyone wants to know more minutae and specifics abow what happened, sure, there's TCW. But the movies stand alone perfectly.

 

Didn't say there was.

Still, setting the SW EU aside for the moment, I'd think it can be agreed in general (as I did with @Samuel Vimes) that a film should stand clearly in its own right without external support. Just a simple, universal, generalized viewpoint on the quality of films-any films.

I understand TCW is canon, and the pre-'15 material is Legends. Actually, I'm quite a fan of how the Syfo-Dyas/Kamino/inhibitor chip w/Order 66 storylines played out in TCW series! Once I saw those episodes, I was very glad they were included. It really expanded my view of that subplot and enriched my enjoyment of the PT era.

 

No one is saying that the films cannot stand alone. The whole point in bringing up TCW is that it provides an official, and detailed explanation about things. Is it necessary? No. Does it hurt to watch, or to discuss? No. I mean, how many people watched "Star Trek", "Star Trek: The Next Generation", "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", "Star Trek: Voyager" and "Star Trek: Enterprise" when watching the films? Not as many as those who watched the films. But it wouldn't hurt to watch the series in relation to the films. Take film eleven, the reboot. How many watched the previous films and television series? How many who did watch the original films, know that they should watch "Unification" in relation to the 2009 film, in order to better understand Spock's role on Romulus and why he, of all Vulcans, was sought out for assistance? It's not necessary, but it adds context and flavoring.

 

Yes. But for those who bemoan the movies and poke holes in things and add their own 2¢ of chuckie cheese money. The Clone Wars series is there to set the record straight.

Why would you watch Star Trek movies if you didn't see the series to start with? That's a reverse Clone Wars..... hahahhahaha. You got some humor on you Dart-Sinter!!!! (Applaud)


1000000% agree about the Spock / Romulin LIink..... Even if i hardly remembered it when seeing Star Trek 09. That makes big sense.

Kudos to you Sinister for know it's the 11th Trek Film. WOW.

 

Speaking about the 2009 film, what about Nero?

Obvious questions from watching the film would be "What is he doing for 25 years?". "Why didn't he try and conquer several systems? He could with his powerful ship."
"Why doesn't he sell his ship or parts of it to the Romulans of the current time and become really rich?"
"Why doesn't he tell the Romulans of this time about the future and that way, they can a) deal with the supernova and b) they could likely be able to conquer the Federation and the Klingons."

Instead, based on the film, he prefers to sit and brood for 25 years. And cut of the tips of his ears for some reason.

But there is a tie-in comic, called Countdown that greatly expands on his backstory.
From wikipedia;

This does a lot, first it establishes that he and Spock worked together. That he trusted Spock and spoke out for him to the Romulan senate. It also shows how he and his crew could deal with the red matter as they had some experience with it.
It also shows why he would be both angry with the Romulan leaders and blaming them for not listening.
And also the Vulcan Council for withdrawing their aid and letting Romulus die.
Plus he left to help Spock and thus unable to help his wife and child when the planet was destroyed.
And so him being extra angry at Spock is now explained by him trusting Spock earlier.

In all, it makes him a more well-rounded character and his actions now make more sense.
But since none of that is IN the film, my judgement of the character is a boring emo with a trident.
And that is a shame because there was so much potential here.

About the TNG films, in comparison with the TOS films, to me they were more reliant on people having watched the show. Data's emotion chip, the Duras sisters and so on.
And to me, I think that is part of the reason why they didn't work as well as films.
To me, there is only one good film, First Contact, the rest are varying degrees of bad.
And they didn't really pull in general audiences all that much.

The 2009 film did a far better job of that.
It referenced things but it didn't rely in them as much.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

George has admitted a number of times that he's not the best script-writer. This is one of those cases where he's right about himself. It's both a convoluted and ridiculously implausible plot point.

 

Except for all the points that have been exhaustively put forth in this thread and which you have chosen to completely ignore to make a glib, three-sentence post which adds nothing to the discussion.

 

In all this time, I never thought about it that way, that Jango used the dart on Tyrannus’ orders to lure the Jedi to Kamino to get the war started. I like that idea.
I guess an alternate plan would be for Palps to get the army approved by the Senate and then contact the Kaminoans for delivery.