PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

You didn't need to read my mind to see that nowhere in that post did I direct any personal remarks toward you. The only way you could have imagined I was accusing you of being a child-beater is if there was a catastrophic failure of reading comprehension. The error was not mine. Now let's drop it, please.

I'd like to know exactly where in the commentary, so I can hear for myself, if that's not too much trouble. I was not aware of this and I'm actually quite interested to know of it.

 

If memory serves me right it's a scene in the Falcon cockpit where they shut 3PO up. Unfortunately that's all I remember and I can't narrow it down for you at this time.

 

Maybe it’s been said already (I just skimmed the past 16 pages), but my first take on it in the movie theater was that the Jedi’s acceptance of the Clone army was part desperation (how else to rescue Obi Wan and Co and fight the Seperatists, and their ability to use the Force has been diminished) and part to show the moral decline of the Jedi (their arrogance was mentioned more than once).

 

Taking the clone army is not a show of arrogance. And the Jedi didn't take the army. The Republic did. It was made for it. The Republic owns it and used it. And the Jedi who serve the Republic were assigned as Generals of said army.

The movie takes the time to show us all that. Everything is put on hold until the senate grants Palpatine powers to create and use an army against the threat of the separatists. Using the army is not and never was a Jedi decision.

 

Exactly. I always believed the Jedi were more or less forced into this. Either way, they were screwed. Participate and they go against their own code. Don’t and the Republic thinks the Jedi are abandoning them right when they need them.

 

Yes, they were trapped. To not involve themselves in the war in order to help protect the Republic and end the war sooner is not a solution and is ignoring their mandate as Jedi to protect the people of the Republic. If they can help then they should help. And they did. That the war was a sham is another problem entirely, and something they had no way of knowing at the time.

 

Yes, and I'm sticking to it!

 

As per TCW, the Jedi only discover Dooku is behind it when they're already more than two years into the war and they've developed personal relationships of trust with the clones. At that point, there's still no way for them to know what the ultimate purpose of the army or the war is supposed to be, nor can they start pointing fingers of mistrust at their loyal friends.

 

The arrogance bit was just one example; the point was the moral decline of the Jedi to the point they would accept the Clone army.
I agree that arrogance itself had nothing to do with accepting the army . I just used that term because it was mentioned specifically in AotC, I suspect to show that the Jedi themselves had been declining and not adhering as strictly to their principles.
Perhaps the Jedi of a few hundred years prior might not have been willing to lead the army.
As to whether it was a Jedi decision or not, based solely on what is in the film, I think it still is at least partially a Jedi decision. After Palps gets voted the emergency powers, he says they will create a grand army of the Republic. He does not say that it will be led by Jedi (which he could have said to lock them in). As soon as he hears that speech, Yoda sends Mace to Geonosis and says that he will go inspect the clones. Next we see of Yoda, he shows up with and is leading the army. He made the decision to lead them; he was put in that position by Palps, but he still could have refused. Consequences either way.

Again, I agree . My post must not have reflected my thoughts as well as I intended. They were definitely maneuvered into this difficult position by Palps.

As to WHY they accepted leadership, my previous answers are my thoughts. The desperation (their powers have declined, mentioned in the movie; I take that to not just mean their visions of the future, but all powers) and the decline in their principles.

 

But my point is that Jedi had no say in the acceptance of the army. So there's no arrogance or "moral decline" in that regard. The army was for the Republic. It was the Republic that took it and authorized its use by granting those powers to Palpatine (and that decision doesn't show arrogance either). The Jedi were merely assigned as Generals/Commanders in the army.

We do see some Jedi being arrogant (a flaw that they recognize), but we also never see the Jedi as a whole acting or making decisions based on or affected by arrogance.

Mace decides to go to Geonosis with whatever Jedi he can gather. And Yoda merely says that he will go to Kamino to see the army. In no way is it shown or implied that the Jedi had a say in the use of the army. We had just seen that the decision to use the army was solely on Palpatine. The senate voted for it.

To send the army to Geonosis was the plan all along ever since Obi-Wan reported what he found there. That's why Jar Jar proposed the emergency powers in the senate. That was the basis of his argument. And the senate agreed.

You say they could have refused. That's true, they could have. They would be branded traitors but it was an option nonetheless. But how is that a solution? How does that help? They have the power to help. To stand aside and do nothing when they could do something and save lives in the process is hardly the Jedi way either. No solution is perfect, but I wouldn't call it a flaw or moral decline in either case.

 

I disagree that the Jedi I would’ve been branded traitors at this early stage. After all, Senators Amidala, Organa, and Mothma all opposed the creation and use of an army. Palpatine had not yet consolidated his power, and it would take something more than simply sitting out the war for the Jedi to be seen as traitors (more along the lines of what happened in RotS). If they had refused to lead the army, I’m sure Palps had other back up plans to get them involved.
But that’s where the moral decline I’m talking about comes in. Both in TPM and earlier in AotC, the Jedi explicitly state they will not fight a war. But when they are forced to make a hard decision, they give in rather than sticking to their principles (not debating on whether the principles are right or wrong).
As for when Yoda shows up with the army, he is clearly in command. He is issuing orders to the troops, and we don’t see any Republic generals or commanders in the traditional sense.

 

@Alexrd is right. There no way The Jedi could have refused the Army if they wanted to, as it was being build under the pretext to assist them.



They were working with the Chancellor to hold off the vote altogether as they did not want the conflict to escalate..

By the time Kenobi is captured everyone in Palps believes the Army is needed because as Bail says:

" The Separatists are preparing for war, there's no doubt of that."

They were made to feel they had no choice.

 

Again they were made to feel they had no choice...Their mistake imo was not fallowing through with their investigation. Amidala's capture did not help..

 

They would, because they made an oath to protect the Republic. The Separatists are going to attack Republic systems. Obi-Wan heard as much on Geonosis. By refusing to involve themselves in protecting those systems, they are breaking their oath.

No, they didn't. The only time anything like that is said is by Qui-Gon in TPM under the specific circumstances he's in. He was ignorant about Amidala's intentions on how to face the Trade Federation armies, and clarified to her that his mission as a Jedi was to protect Amidala, not to fight a war for her. But Amidala didn't plan for the Jedi to fight a war.

In AOTC, Obi-Wan discovers that the Dooku and the Separatists were planning to attack a defenseless Republic:

"Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support and when their battle droids are combined with yours we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."

War was happening, wether the Jedi were involved or not. Their only choice was to be part of it, help save lives and do what they can to end the conflict sooner, or stay in the sidelines and watch the citizens they swore to protect be attacked by the Separatists.

 

@ Lady_Skywalker87 and Alexrd:

I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree

In Palps’ office, Mace says:

“But if they do, you must realise there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers.”

As such, they could still take a protective role and let the army (whatever type of army that was going to be formed) do the attacking. They can do their duty and adhere to their mandate without leading the army.

I can see how you can interpret that the troops are for the Jedi, but in a way then, aren’t local police? Would they be under Jedi command? We don’t know.
There is a big difference between protecting the Republic and attacking, even preemptively.
Also, the fact that the Council KNEW that the army was clones, a slave army, before they agreed to lead them is indicative of the decline in principles of the Jedi. If the army had just shown up to help, they might not have found that out until later.

 

In the novelization at least, Obi-Wan is majorly creeped out by the Kaminoans and by the implications of the way they talk about the clones:

P204-207
Obi-Wan stared at the closest embryo, floating contentedly in its fluid, curled and with its little thumb stuck in its mouth. In ten short years, that tiny creature, that tiny man, would be a soldier, killing and, likely, soon enough killed.
He shuddered and looked to his Kaminoan guide.
"Come," Lama Su bade him, walking along the corridor.
...
"Would you care to inspect the final product now?" the Prime Minister asked, and Obi-Wan could hear excitement in his voice. Clearly he was proud of this accomplishment. "I would like your approval before you take delivery."
The callousness of it all stuck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living and breathing and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such conditions, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had began all this was almost too much for him to digest.

The tour took him through the commissary next, where hundreds of adult clones- all young men Anakin's age- sat in neat rows, all dressed in red, all eating the same food in the same manner.
"You'll find they are totally obedient," Lama Su was saying, seemingly oblivious to the Jedi's discomfort. "We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original, of course."
"Who was the original?"
"A bounty hunter called Jango Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself."
The notion that a Jedi might have been used nearly floored Obi-Wan. An army of clones strong in the Force?
"Where is this bounty hunter now?" he asked.
"He lives here," Lama Su replied. "But he's free to come and go as he pleases." He kept walking as he spoke, leading Obi-Wan along a long corridor filled with transparent tubes.
The Jedi watched in amazement as clones climbed up into those tubes and settled into place, closing their eyes and going to sleep.
"Very disciplined," he remarked.
"That is the key," Lama Su replied. "Disciplined, and yet with the ability to think creatively. It is a mighty combination. Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only command an army of life-forms."
And you wanted a Jedi as host? Obi-Wan thought, but he did not say it aloud. He took a deep breath, wondering how Master Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterally crossed the line to create any army of clones. Obi-Wan realised that he had to suppress his need for a direct answer to that right now, and simply listen and observe, gather as much information as he could so that he and the Jedi Council might sort it out.


I think it's likely that Mace & Yoda would have been conscious of the same issues, and that they knew what they were getting into.

 

It's not attacking. It's defend and counter the Separatist offensive. Mace is pointing out that in the event that half the systems break away, there are very few Jedi in numbers to be used as a defense line for the Republic. They aren't soldiers. They weren't designed to be soldiers. It's not that they can't fight, or that they can't help in a military effort. It's that they aren't a solution to the Republic in the event of a war. That's what Mace is warning about.

"The first real scene in the movie is with Palpatine and the Jedi, and it's primarily designed to set up the fact that the Jedi are having a hard time keeping peace and justice in the galaxy, and that they aren't really designed as an army. They are designed as a kind of police force and diplomatic corps. And I just needed to remind the audience here that there aren't enough of them to conduct a full-scale war, which is something that is more or less unknown in the galaxy at this point. When the Republic came into being, it pretty much ended all the wars because of the Senate and doing things through negotiation." - George Lucas

It's why there's debate in the senate around the creation of an army. The Republic has no means of defense, that's the problem. Some feel an army should be created in case the Separatists start an offensive. And others (like Padmé) feel that creating an army would send the wrong message to the Separatists, in the sense that they would think the Republic was preparing to attack them.

The troops aren't for the Jedi. The troops are for the Republic (just like the Jedi are for the Republic). The Republic decided to take in and use the troops. And the Republic used the Jedi that serve it (and are few in numbers) as leaders of their troops.

How? The clone army was going to be used, wether the Jedi helped or not. And the fact that the Jedi worked and risked their lives alongside those clones is not an indication of any decline in principles.

 

@Alexrd :
I think at this point that I have expressed my opinions clearly and gave my answer to the OP's question, and so have you. We just seem to fundamentally disagree on certain aspects and are going in circles
Thank you for your replies and the spirited debate. I guess we will agree to disagree.

 

Has this thread run its course?

 

@Doompup Like I said, they were made to FEEL like they had no choice...like everyone else in the Trilogy. Should they have continued their investigation key, Sat down with Dooku perhaps? Absolutely..there's folly in how situations are handled by them. But the acceptance of the Army is something that wasn't really under their control, they could influence the outcome but if the Senate had voted in favor of the Army under mundane circumstances (without the impending threat of an attack) The Order would have been expected to lead it. Agree to disagree indeed.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

@Lady_Skywalker87

Uh-oh. I feel myself being drawn back into the debate. Must...resist...

Thanks for your reply.
I have read and understood your posts, I just think there was more to their decision than being forced into it or made to feel they had to.
I guess we just interpret the events of the movie (and the stuff that happens off screen) differently, and at this point am no longer interested in continuing the debate.
At least we can agree that the Jedi were put into this position by Palpatine.
Have a Happy New Year and May the Force be with you!

 

No one can deny that, I believe. Thanks a lot, same to you.

 

You cannot expect the Jedi to sit back and do nothing. That's like expecting a firefighter to not go into a burning building, even if they don't have their gear. You could no more expect Superman to sit by as Earth is about to be destroyed, simply because he has a moral imperative that would prevent him from doing so. The Jedi had to fight in the war despite their vows to avoid fighting in wars. Note that Luke still fights during the OT, as a soldier. Even after he's finished the bulk of his training, he's still Commander Skywalker. And his role was to assist Han's strike team on Endor. Likewise, Kanan Jarrus, Ezra Bridger and Ahsoka Tano had all fought with the Alliance against the Empire. They didn't accept military rankings, but they still fought in a war. Even Yoda admitted that fighting was a necessity, but how they choose to fight is more important than just fighting to win.

No, they shouldn't have fought, but they didn't have much choice.