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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Why didn't Luke attempt to kill the Emperor before electrocuting him?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Auggie, May 1, 2016.

  1. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant because that's not my intention. I'm genuinely curious about the following question, so please don't get defensive.

    Why didn't Luke Skywalker attempt to kill the Emperor (in the scene below) at the end of Return of the Jedi? Instead, he simply hurls his lightsaber away and refuses to kill the most dangerous man in the galaxy. The very reason he was on Endor in the first place was to disable the shield generator so that the Alliance could DESTROY THE EMPEROR along with the Second Death Star. Also, at that point, there was still a great chance that the Alliance would fail, leaving the Emperor alive and the Empire intact. Why didn't Luke at least TRY to ensure the Emperor's death just in case his friends failed?

    The scene below is the one in question and the one that I will be referring to throughout this post.
    I'm going to run through a few responses I've seen to this question and explain why they're incorrect:

    1. Killing the Emperor would've turned Luke to the Dark Side.

    In order to understand why this response is incorrect, one must understand what causes a Jedi to fall to the Dark Side in such a situation. Let's take a look at Luke and the Emperor's confrontation a few moments prior to this scene:
    The reason Luke's reaction in this scene is not the Jedi way is because Luke is attempting to kill the Emperor out of pure hatred for him, rather than for a noble reason. Many claim that Luke is not allowed to kill the Emperor before being electrocuted for the same reason that he is not allowed to kill the Emperor in the scene above. This isn't true as the circumstances in both scenes are completely different. In the first scene, while NOT in control of his emotions, Luke attempted to kill the Emperor out of hatred alone, not the Jedi way. In the second scene, while IN CONTROL of his emotions, Luke should have attempted to kill the Emperor in the defense of the lives of others, which is exactly the Jedi way.

    Note how I said that Luke was IN CONTROL of his emotions prior to being electrocuted by the Emperor. That is the very reason why killing the Emperor in that exact moment wouldn't have turned Luke to the Dark Side

    To further elaborate on exactly what turns a Jedi to the Dark Side and why killing the Emperor before being electrocuted wouldn't have turned Luke to the Dark Side, I will quote someone from another forum:
    Therefore, killing someone evil, like the Emperor, wouldn't have turned Luke to the Dark Side as long as his cause was a noble one (and Luke has plenty of noble reasons to kill the Emperor, considering he's part of the Rebellion), and as long as he wasn't doing so out of rage.

    2. The Emperor was unarmed, so Luke would be killing an unarmed man.

    This response is incorrect for multiple reasons. First of all, Luke was never instructed that he couldn't kill unarmed people. Killing unarmed people doesn't turn you to the Dark Side anyway, considering Luke used the Force to blow up the First Death Star, and there were plenty of innocent, unarmed personnel aboard it. He did it for the greater good, just like killing the Emperor, armed or unarmed, would be for the greater good.

    More importantly, this answer is also incorrect because the Emperor actually IS ARMED. He is armed with the entire Imperial military as well as a planet-destroying space station, the Death Star. Upon a single command, the Emperor could wipe out an entire planet or mobilize his Imperial forces to unleash utter destruction on the galaxy. These facts just prove how dangerous the Emperor truly is and how necessary his death is.

    Yoda's teachings also allow for the killing of people, regardless of whether they are armed, under certain circumstances:
    Luke killing the Emperor would be out of DEFENSE of the Empire's victims. Therefore, killing an armed or even unarmed man in this particular situation would not defy Jedi teachings.

    3. Luke wouldn't have been able to defeat the Emperor anyway, he's too powerful.

    While it is true that Luke wouldn't have been able to defeat the Emperor in a duel, we're discussing character motivations, not what would've been the outcome if Luke actually engaged him. I am wondering why Luke didn't ATTEMPT to kill the Emperor, not why it wouldn't have worked.

    The response above (#3) is incorrect in the context of my question because, at that point, Luke hadn't realized how powerful the Emperor truly was. He also didn't know that the Emperor was even armed (see quote below), so as far as Luke KNOWS, killing him would be a swift and easy victory.
    4. He was buying time, so the Alliance could blow up the Death Star.

    No, because the Emperor had already given Admiral Jerjerrod all authority to fire:
    Therefore, no matter what Luke does, it has no effect on his friends' fates.

    There are many other responses to this question that don't hold up, but these are the most common ones.

    In conclusion, why didn't Luke kill the Emperor if:
    • It wouldn't have turned him to the Dark Side
    • The Emperor was actually armed with the Imperial military and the Death Star, and Luke knew that
    • The Emperor is the most dangerous person in the galaxy, and his death would be out of the defense of others
    • Luke didn't even know that the Emperor had Force Lightning, so (in his mind) the Emperor wouldn't put up much of a fight
    • He wasn't just simply stalling for his friends
    I will also address this before someone brings it up. I understand that Luke throwing away his lightsaber is symbolism for him essentially "throwing away the Dark Side and his temptations," but he was metaphorically throwing away his temptations to kill HIS FATHER, not the Emperor. He has seemingly no reason that I know of to not kill the EMPEROR.
     
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  2. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Because Luke didn't want to give in to his anger by killing him, or attempting too.
     
  3. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    I already explained this. Luke wasn't angry right before being electrocuted, so he wouldn't be giving into his anger by killing the Emperor. He would be killing the Emperor for the good of the galaxy. Killing the Emperor right before being electrocuted would be an act of compassion towards future victims of the Emperor's wrath, not an act of hatred.

    Luke killing the Emperor here:



    is vastly different than if Luke would've killed the Emperor here:



    The difference is that Luke was filled with hatred in the first scene, but he was calm and at peace in the second scene. Therefore, Luke killing the Emperor in the first scene would've resulted in him turning to the Dark Side while in the second scene, he wouldn't have.
     
  4. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Auggie

    Welcome to the JCF and congratulations on a really thought-provoking thread.

    I really don't know what to say.

    Luke doesn't have the faintest idea that his friends will be okay in a few minutes so he doesn't even attempt to threaten the Emperor to leave them unharmed.

    Vader told him they were going to turn Leia to the dark side. How will Luke accomplish that by throwing away his lightsaber? Let the red guards take him into custody, lock him up and watch how they will turn Leia?
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Back after a good night's sleep (I often let my subconscious handle the difficult matters to present solutions in the morning) I came up with a few rationalizations.

    As I wrote yesterday, Luke could have at least kept his lightsaber to threaten the Emperor.

    But what good would that have done (or killing the Emperor right away)? His friends had walked into a trap and were captured (possibly were about to be executed?) and Luke had no means of communication or information to figure out what had happened on the moon of Endor.
    With the Emperor being the commander-in-chief of the Imperial Forces Luke needed him alive to issue corresponding orders or obtain information regarding the well-being of his friends. Had he threatened the Emperor, the reply would have probably been something like said:

    "Threaten or kill me with your lightsaber, but it will do your friends on the moon no good whatsoever" (back to dark side tempation?)

    I also think that Luke had perhaps realized that the Emperor was possibly too strong for him. Via Force telekinesis he had previously removed Luke's shackles (who *cough* seemed more impressed with that, than I would have believed possible).

    I think Luke was about to go for a Jedi mind trick but knew he just couldn't do it alone. When he said "I am a Jedi like my father before me" I could never shake this feeling that he was also appealing to his father in the background, somewhat like "Father, I need your help, now".

    I believe that from Luke's point of view, had this worked, he would have just remained with the two in the throne room untill the Death Star exploded, because ruling the galaxy together with his father was the last thing he wanted to happen.
     
  6. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Luke was turning away from violence. By laying down his weapon, he was choosing not engage in any games that Palpatine wanted to play. He had tasted the dark side and he didn't want to be corrupted like his father. He would rather die than have that happen.
     
  7. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    op completely misunderstands the movie and luke.
     
  8. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Or he could just kill the Emperor, and there would be no more games to be played.

    Why can't he just kill him and end it just in case his friends fail to blow up the Death Star? By killing the Emperor, Luke would actually be PREVENTING further violence as well.

    He wouldn't be giving into his anger because he's not even angry! If you're not angry, how can you give into your anger.
     
  9. shafty

    shafty Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Because it was never lukes destiny to kill the emperor... It was anakins
     
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  10. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Or maybe you never take the time to think about such things and just accept things that might not make sense just 'cause the movie says so. Not trying to be mean, but that's what it sounds luke with your empty response.
     
  11. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    no. i understand things.
     
  12. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    I know that, but why didn't Luke at least try, or even think about killing him?

    Like I said, there are NO bad consequences for killing the Emperor. He wouldn't turn to the Dark Side because that would require HATRED, and Luke wasn't angry at all right before being electrocuted. He was "calm, at peace" to quote Yoda. Therefore, killing him in that moment wouldn't have resulted in his fall to the Dark Side.

    I'm glad we're getting a good discussion about this. :D
     
  13. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Then please elaborate. Demonstrate your understanding, and we can have an intelligent discussion.NOTE: We're talking about character MOTIVATIONS here, not what would have actually occurred if Luke engaged the Emperor in a duel.
     
  14. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    thejeditraitor

    On the contrary, the OP understands the "big picture" apparently better than most of us (myself included, see post # 4).

    YODA If you honor what they fight for
    ... yes!

    So already Luke has failed to turn his father back (or at least it seems so for the moment), Vader has learnt that he has a sister (probably suspects Leia) and Luke decides to do nothing about this to somehow rectify the mess he's created? :eek:

    Then it would have been better he had stayed with the others and give Vader a wide berth. Just because Vader had a change of mind and minded the Emperor electrocuting Luke, still makes me wonder what went through his head when he decided to toss his lightsaber away and reduce the entire situation to a simple "I won't turn".
     
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  15. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    if luke tried to fight the emperor he would have failed. the reason he even went there was to give the rebels time to blow up the ds2 killing them all. he knew he couldn't defeat the emperor.

    the bottom line is he couldn't have killed him and when he tried vader stopped him.
     
  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    thejeditraitor wrote

    The reason he even went there was to give the rebels time to blow up the ds2 killing them all.

    As a distraction, yes. But up there on the Death Star, the Emperor made it crystal clear that he had been setting up a trap for the Rebel strike team on the Endor moon, so Luke had every reason to assume that his friends wouldn't be able to destroy the shield generator protecting the Death Star.
     
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  17. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    i said above he couldn't defeat the emperor and when he tried vader stopped him. if vader died and luke when on to fight the emperor himself he would have been destroyed.
     
  18. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    thejeditraitor

    While we as the audience do know that Luke's friends have managed to destroy the deflector shield generator and while we know in hindsight that Luke wouldn't be a match for the Emperor, Luke does not know these things.

    Auggie is wondering about "in-universe" character motivation of Luke who has just disarmed Vader and stands in front of the Emperor, but throws his bargaining chip (lightsaber) away rather than to use it to threaten or destroy the Emperor.

    Admittedly, Leia on Endor senses that Luke is still alive (after the Death star blew) but to what extent (battle exhausted) Luke could be capable to sense that Leia is not only alive, but managed to destroy the shield generator is debatable, at best.
     
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  19. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    well throwing the lightsaber away is his sign of not joining palps and pacifism. he'd rather die than join the dark side. just like in esb when he let himself fall to his death rather than join vader. luke didn't know he would live.

    if the rebels succeed he knows he'll die in the explosion. if they don't he's prepared to let the emperor kill him rather than join him. he went there expecting to die but wanted to give the rebels a chance. he also wanted to do everything he could to try to save his father.
     
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  20. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    You're talking about earlier in the scene when the Emperor is taunting Luke into swinging at him in order to get Luke and Vader into a duel. Luke's decision to swing at the Emperor was wrong because he did so while in a fit of rage. At that point, he was filled with the Dark Side, and his best option would be to wait it out. But this situation isn't what I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about Luke's confrontation with the Emperor right before being electrocuted. At this poing, Luke has CONTROL of his emotions (he has rid his body of Dark Side emotions planted in him by the Emperor in the earlier scene), thus killing the Emperor at that moment would've been for a noble cause.

    And Luke has many noble causes for killing the Emperor such as the fact that Vader and the Emperor now know about Leia's Force sensitivity (as Lt. Hija states), the fact that Luke doesn't even know that Vader will kill the Emperor, and finally, the fact that the Alliancr might not even blow up the Death Star, meaning the most evil man in the galaxy survives!
     
  21. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    well throwing the lightsaber away is his sign of not joining palps and pacifism. he'd rather die than join the dark side. just like in esb when he let himself fall to his death rather than join vader. luke didn't know he would live.
     
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  22. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    As far as Luke knows, he doesn't even have to die. He could kill the Emperor, escape with still evil Vader and have more one-on-one time with him in order to turn him to the Light.

    That's just how I see it. I want to be proven wrong. This almost seems like a flaw in the writing and I don't want it to be.

    In ESB, Luke chose to die because his hand was lopped off and he lost his lightsaber. He had no choice but to jump. He physically couldn't fight Vader anymore.

    In RotJ, Luke was in control. He still had his saber (before he threw it), and still had the option to kill the Emperor.

    In ESB, Luke had no options. In RotJ, he had an option (to kill the Emperor).

    I also understand that killing VADER would've turned him to the Dark Side because the only way Luke would want to kill his own dad would be out of anger. But killing the Emperor for the good of the Galaxy wouldn't have turned him to the Dark Side. I get it, refusing to kill Vader is basically him refusing the Dark Side, and that he'd rather die than join the Emperor. But he can refuse to join the Dark Side, kill the Emperor, and eacape with live Vader all if he had just killed him (the Emperor)! Whether that would've worked or not is irrelevant. I'm wondering why this option didn't cross Luke's mind.
     
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  23. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    he can't beat the emperor. it's also part of his character to lean towards pacifism. the emperor wants him to fight so that he'll use his anger.

    luke won't risk turning to the dark side so he throws his saber away.
     
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  24. Auggie

    Auggie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2016
    I'm at work rn so we can discuss later. You might be on to something though.
     
  25. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    thejeditraitor wrote

    If the rebels succeed he knows he'll die in the explosion. if they don't he's prepared to let the emperor kill him rather than join him.

    ...and let his friends on the Endor moon and the Alliance die at the Battle of Endor. The Galactic Empire has won the civil war.

    I'm rather certain that Luke wasn't just willing to let this happen, but it would have been the inevitable outcome of not doing anything at all while just having achieved the upper hand in the duel with Vader.

    So the question remains why he tossed his lightsaber away rather than to threaten and/or kill the Emperor (from his point of view and given his knowledge about the entire stuation at this particular moment).

    In ESB there was little left to do but jump rather than to join, as his death would have had no consequence in terms of the "big picture".

    In contrast, ROJ provided him with the opportunity (as it must have looked to Luke) to do something about the "big picture".

    Just a willingness to sacrifice himself a second time here, doesn't make sense. It's like "saving my soul" is the most important thing in the galaxy.

    I could further argue that Kenobi could have just used Force pushes to discourage the three "stooges" that attacked Luke in the Cantina rather than to mutilate or kill them.
    Still didn't stop him from becoming a Force ghost...