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PT Why do so many people hate that Anakin was a kid in Episode I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. DarthVist

    DarthVist Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2019
    The reason why Anakin was a kid in The Phantom Menace was to show how still attached to his mother that he still was, and how hard it was for him to leave her.

    If Anakin would've been 14 years old instead of 9 years old, it would've looked very creepy.
     
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  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Why?
    If a 15 year old Anakin has to leave his mother, who is slave on a world run by criminals, why would it be creepy if this bothers him? Why can't he have doubts and worry about his mothers safety?
    A 15 year old is not as dependent on their parent/caregiver as a nine year old but that does not mean they don't care or would not react if something happens to said parent/caregiver.

    And many get why Anakin was made this young, the leaving of his mother, some just feel that this caused other problems.
    Like why Qui-Gon for no reason brings a little kid to a war zone and Anakin randomly pushing button and manages to destroy the TF ship.
    And that important relationships could not really be established in TPM and so AotC felt a bit rushed.
    Like Obi-Wan and Anakin, they meet in TPM but that's about it.
    It also had the issue of recasting the character.
    And quite a few felt that the acting of Jake Lloyd was a bit lacking.

    So in all, to me, the drawbacks outweighed the advantage.
    I think it was entirely possible to have a slightly older Anakin in TPM, he leaves his slave mother behind and is bothered by that. Then in the next film she dies and he blames himself for not acting sooner and vows to not let others die in this way, set up for RotS.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  3. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    In the real world the 15 year old teenagers even in high developed countries (where the children are well protected) have the right to work, to go unaccompanied to many places and even to study in different cities (and to live there alone) and so on. So no, is not the same if someone is living his parents being 9 as being 15 years old when he will be grown up soon. Not to mention that is not the same to be slave at ten and to be slave at 15. But of course the purpose of Lucas here is bigger, he wants indeed to show that Anakin was pure innocent child no matter how hard life he lived.
     
  4. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    I don't really mind. Besides Rey for a moment in TFA, its not like Anakin was gonna be a Jedi in Episode I regardless if he was 9 or 17. I think AOTC and ROTS make up for Anakin's inability to wield a weapon in I. Hell, Anakin's screentime with a saber outweighs Luke and Rey's easily.
     
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  5. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Exactly. The intention was to portray Anakin as a pure innocent sweet child, without any hint of darkness (aka adolescence).
    And the bond to his mother and the fact that they are separated at a rather traumatic age is much more important than anything else for his character.

    Not to mention that a recast is easier when there is a big age jump. Having a 16 year old actor in TPM would mean that they wouldn't be able to cast someone else to portray him in the other movies, and that's a big gamble.
     
  6. Mark Pierre

    Mark Pierre Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2016
    I LOVE little Anakin.
    I love all his scenes - he's especially good with Shmi, with Padme on ship ("I'm cold."), and that glare he gives Mace - simply awesome!
    I didn't expect too see Anakin so young, but I love that I could join him on his journey from start to end.
    If I want to see Vader smash things (and Jedi) for a few hours, I can always play a video game - or watch that ridiculous ending of RO.
    But I won't.
     
  7. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    This never occured as a problem for me. Qui-Gon couldnt leave Anakin on Coruscant...when they left Coruscant they didnt even know what the queen was up to do there. But even if, he didnt have any choice but to take him because a) the jedi wouldnt take him and b) there was no one else he would have taken care of him for the time beeing. The third thing is that Qui-Gon wanted to start Anakins training without official record "I want you to watch me" were his words. Qui-Gon is a Jedi who knows what potential Jedi are capable of. Also did he knew where Anakin was raised and what a dangerous place Tatooine was He saw Anakins abilities and that he was able to take care of himself. He belived in the living force and that everything as a purpose.
    So he was very certain that nothing would happen to Anakin because the force didnt want it to happen in his belive and Anakin was able to take care of himself as potential Jedi and a kid who grew up on a dangerous desert planet as a slave.
    Certainly it was dangerous to take Anakin with him right into the battle. But in the end Qui-Gon trusted the force for Anakin not to be hurt and he was right. Without Anakin they would'nt have won the battle or at least there would have been much more causalities then there actually were.
    You are right about the randomly pushing buttons but we are talking about the Chosen One. In is naivitey he fires on the droids inside the Trade Federation Control Ship and accidently pulls the torpedo trigger. To quote Ben Kenobi: "from my experience there is not such a thing as luck!" so I'd say: the force was with him as it was with Luke in Ep IV.

    In the end I wouldnt say that there are much differences between Ep IV Luke and Ep I Anakin. Both are young and naive, unexperienced and never fought in a battle. Luke survives the Death Star raid to rescue Leia without any real combat experience. He is allowed to fly the attack run on the Death Star beside the rebels dont know him or his abilities (the Radio Drama is a little more open about that). For all they know he could have been dead withhin 5 minutes or even cause causalities withhin the rebel ranks. He succeds because of his unconscious abilities to use the force. Like father...like son.

    For me I love little Anakin. I remember when I played the Ep I game before even watching the movie (the game came out in may of 1999 and the movie was released in germany in August of the same year). I was fascinated by the thought of seeing Vader as a little kid, seehing how he was before he became the twisted evil mashine I knew. I love his portayal, his innocense, his emotions for his mother and how he interacts with Qui-Gon as a father figure. I would'nt want it any other way then the way it was shot by Lucas.

    I really do hope that we will get more Canon stuff of Anakins Training. I loved the Jedi Quest Book series by Jude Watson back in the day. Fleshing out Anakin growing up and his relations with Kenobi was a big thing for me and I'd love to get more new content about that![/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  8. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    True. I think Lucas himself makes this point somewhere, it might be on the DVD commentary iirc.

    But yeah, preadolescence is typically the beginning of becoming independent from the parents, so separating from his mother at a later age wouldn't have affected Anakin as much--it wouldn't have affected his attachment style. Lucas was wise to pick this age for the character.
     
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  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Did Luke in ANH display much darkness?
    He was kindhearted, wanted to help and idealistic. He cared.
    He was a bit impatient and reckless but those are not really "dark" traits to me.

    The traumatic thing due to the age, that causes another problem.
    Did neither the Jedi nor Padme consider this?
    That little Anakin would worry about his slave mothers safety and this would weigh on his mind?
    And that and obvious and easy solution to deal with part of this would be to free her from slavery and telling Anakin this in order to put his mind at ease.
    But neither of them seem to even consider this option.
    This makes them seem cold and uncaring. Maybe that was the intent.

    Lastly, about recasting, that gamble applies equally to Padme and Obi-Wan so was this only an issue to the actor playing Anakin?
    Having the same actor in all three films, assuming the actor worked well, tends to be a benefit.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  10. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    No, but Luke doesn't turn to the Dark Side. He matures as the trilogy unfolds, and gets a bit closer to the darkness within him, but even at his darkest, he doesn't ever get near enough to becoming a Monster.
    Anakin on the other hand, does turn into a monster. And I would say it is undeniable that the transformation has more of an impact if we've seen Anakin as a small kid first: the contrast between a 9-year-old Anakin and Darth Vader is much more dramatic than, say, a 19-year-old Anakin and Darth Vader.

    But Natalie Portman and Ewan McGregor were both established actors, old enough to commit to three movies and not to expect any big physical transformation (true, Portman was indeed very young, but a 16-year-old girl is physically more mature than a boy, and her role is less crucial to the story).

    But at the end of the day, some people would prefer to see an older Anakin in Episode I, and so be it. Those people tend not to like the PT anyway. Discussing it is fun and interesting, and every opinion has its merit, but, with all due respect, I do feel that some of you are just banging your head against a tree, endlessly discusing something that you just don't enjoy, and criticising something that cannot be changed.

    (Personally, I don't care about the ST trilogy at all, so I decided from the beginning that I would never post in that section of the forum: I find that critisicing the ST in every single post on a forum dedicated to fans of the ST doesn't benefit anyone.)
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    And I think that having a 16-18 old Anakin, who is still a good person and has a warm heart and seeing that person turn evil could be just as dramatic.
    And to me, the difference between TPM Anakin and AotC Anakin, even at the start, was too great and was quite jarring. He seemed like a totally different person so his character growth occurred off-screen.

    Again, casting an actor that is say 18 but can pass for 16, then the next film has him in his early twenties, that is hardly impossible.
    And since TPM is the introduction of the character of Anakin, having a solid first impression is useful.

    Michael J. Fox was well over twenty when he made Back to the Future and he made it work that he was 17.

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, "shut up and go away."
    No one forces you to read my comments or respond to them.

    Lastly, commenting about things a person likes in a film is just as "meaningless" as those can also not be changed.
    Saying what you like and why is in principle no different than saying what you dislike and why.
    It is a discussion and as long as it remains civil, where is the harm?
    The question the OP asked is why young Anakin was disliked by some. I answered.

    Qui-Gon certainly could have left Anakin on Coruscant, like the place Padme stayed at. If this was the Naboo embassy or Palpatine's home.
    Or he could have left him at the Gungan hideout.
    But the plot needs Anakin to tag along and so he does.

    Qui-Gon also told Anakin to hide when they got inside the palace. So he didn't expect Anakin to do anything except to hide.
    Plus, living on a rough planet and being in a war-zone are not quite the same thing.

    But even if we go with the idea that Qui-Gon trust that the Force will not let Anakin be killed.
    Neither Obi-Wan or Padme questions the wisdom in bringing a small boy into battle. And both have not been shy to speak their mind to Qui-Gon before.

    The whole 3rd act of TPM is filled with contrivances, neither Padme nor Qui-Gon show any worry about the blockade that almost killed them last time and it is conveniently gone when they arrive at Naboo. Not that they knew that.
    The Naboo fighters are left alone and somehow are pre-programmed to fly up to the TF ship.
    Why is Nute still there? They control the planet and I doubt he figured that Padme would come back as that would just mean her death or capture. So leave some henchman in charge and go back home.

    I think Luke is very different, he knew how to fly and he knew what buttons did what.
    He used the Force to get an edge, to do what was very difficult.
    Anakin is another level of "The Force did it!"

    Take ANH and make Luke nine, would the film work exactly as is?

    Again I think there are considerable differences. Luke is basically twice as old as Anakin.
    Luke knows how to fly and has flown before, he is even quite good at it.
    He knew how to handle a gun, Tatooine was a rough place with Sandpeople and "worse".

    While there are outside events that push Luke along, he still makes an adult choice to take part of the DS battle. Anakin just tags along for the second half of the film. He has no agency of his own.

    And that it worked for you, great and I mean that.
    I wish it worked for me but sadly it didn't.
    The acting was so uneven that I didn't see Anakin Skywalker, I saw a kid trying to act.
    So the character never worked.
    Which is a pity as there are a number of things in TPM and the PT that I think are good and has potential but some of that potential is never realized.
    And the ST has some of those issues as well, which might explain why I tend to discuss those things. The potential that went a bit unfulfilled.
    A total mess, like Battlefield Earth does not give me much to say other than "It is really terrible."

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  12. KyleKartan

    KyleKartan Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Maybe, maybe not. I got the Feeling that Qui-Gon didnt want Anakin to be anywhere else then by his side. He wanted that Boy to watch him and learn. He wanted to train him, even if it wasnt on record. I always got the Feeling that Qui-Gon was determainded to make that Boy a Jedi because he was completly certain that he was the Chosen one. He said it during the Jedi Council Meeting: "He IS the Chosen One, you must see this!"
    It is pretty clear to me that even if there were possibilities to leave Anakin on Coruscant, Qui-Gon would not have taken those. He wanted to influence and teach the Boy from the Moment the council rejected Anakin beeing made a Jedi Padawan. At least thats my Impression.

    Agreed, he told him that. But still he wanted him to watch him. For me it always was like: watch and learn, open your mind for the Things to come. realize what is possible. You Need to belive when you want to do Kind. Kind of like Yoda Lifting the X-Wing and Luke says he cant belive it and Yoda answers: That is why you fail.

    How do you know that they dont know the Blockade is gone? They spend quite some time on Tatooine and Coruscant, they know how a Blockade works and that is not of any use anymore when the planet is under Control. They got a Transmission from Sio Bibble where maybe they were told that whole planet was now under Control of the federation. So no Blockade required.

    Why would the federation touch the Starfighters? And maybe they have a security Programm installed that they cant be moved? And even if not: the federation didnt even think, that they woulde pose any thread to them because their Droid Control Ship was heavyly guarded by fighters and Anti aircarft Turbo lasers. It is said in the movie during the attack. And how should the federation have known that the naboo get even get as far as trying to use the fighters?
    The Autopilot is programmed by Bravo Leader during the start of the squad, at least that was my first thought when I read your complain about it.

    Last but not least Gunray: I think first he needed to be there to get the treaty signed as soon as Sidious gets Amidala back to Naboo (as he promised). Then I think he is ordered by Sidious to stay there until the treaty is signed. Furthermore he enjoys beeing somekind of ruler over the whole planet (look how he sits inside his hologram chair during the Scene with Sio Bibble) and last but not least: where else should he go? Naboo is the place where he doent have to answer for his Actions. As soon as he gets to coruscant or his home planet the republic will questioning him about the rumors of invading Naboo. He is safe on Naboo around his army.

    I get back to the rest later :)
     
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  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Since we see Qui-Gon telling Anakin to find a place and hide, we know that he does not have an obsession to keep Anakin at his side at all times.
    And we know that he does see that there are dangers in the palace and Anakin should stay hidden and be safe.
    Thus it becomes odd why he does not leave Anakin earlier.
    It is even odder that even if we assume that Qui-Gon is this "The Force wills it!" person, why does no one else comment on it?
    Anakin is just there and no one says anything.

    But where is the hurry?
    Why MUST Qui-Gon start this right here and now and he can't wait a day or so. No, he must take Anakin along even it involves considerable risk and he does not really train him. He just wants him to hide and stay safe.
    Had Qui-Gon stated that he wanted Anakin to play his part in the battle, to pick up a gun and use it, that would be a reason. A pretty reckless one but a reason.
    Instead Anakin just tags along until Qui-Gon realizes, "Oh wait, this could be risky, find a place to hide and stay safe."

    And Anakin being there also defuses tension. This mission is apparently so easy that no one raises an eyebrow that a small kid tags along.

    The message they got said nothing about the blockade and they also think it is a fake. A way to try and trace them.
    They spent what, 2-3 days away from Naboo? Unless they know the fleet is needed elsewhere, which is never said, why would it move?
    Plus the TF want to pretend that nothing has happened. That there has been no invasion or anything. So they would keep the blockade there to make it look like before.

    And the droid army will need ship to be evacuated at some point so until the TF has total control and needs no army, the ships might as well stay.

    Plus had the TF kept three or four ship there, the plan would not have worked.

    Had they said anything about it, then it would have been something but the blockade is just forgotten by Padme and co and when they get back, it is gone, no explanation given.

    Basic strategy when invading another country/place/city etc. Neutralize any military hardware that could be used against you.
    Leaving tanks, fighters etc just standing around is stupid.
    The TF have taken the time to put the entire planetary population in camps and are starving them.
    Blowing up these fighters would take five minutes.

    [/QUOTE]

    First, when Padme gets to Coruscant, Nute would be made aware of it as the TF has a man in the senate.
    So why would he think she would come back?
    And why would Padme think he would stay?
    Since we are dealing with her plan, why would she think Nute would stay?
    She also does not know about Sidious.
    And from what I recall, Sidious no longer cared about the treaty and wanted Padme dead.

    And if she somehow thinks that Nute wants to capture her and make her sign the treaty, then all the more reason to keep ships at Naboo and grab her when she gets back.

    Plus, the jedi send NO help with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, despite this being the possible the return of the worst enemy the Sith.
    Just two Jedi are sent to protect Padme against the TF army AND deal with a possible Sith Lord.
    Not one extra Jedi to help?
    Again, this defuses tension as this is so easy that just two Jedi can deal with it.
    Two jedi, one who is still not a knight and that have to look after a small kid as well.
    Unless the Jedi planned for Qui-Gon and co to die.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  14. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The maximum age Lucas was looking at was around 12. The point was that the younger Anakin was the more effecting it would be to leave Shmi. More than that simply changes the whole dynamic of Anakin's age entering the Jedi Order and leaving Shmi.

    Seriously? I'm sorry but when was the last time you saw the movie? The way the situation plays out is right in line with the Jedi being peaceful negotiators. They are not there to fight a war for the Naboo and don't. That isn't their purpose in all this. They don't know the Sith are back which is the point nor do they know the Sith are there if they are back.

    MACE WINDU : Now is not the time for this...the Senate is voting for a new
    Supreme Chancellor. Queen Amidala is returning home, which will put pressure
    on the Federation, and could widen the confrontation.
    YODA : And draw out the Queen's attacker.
    MACE WINDU : Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of the
    dark warrior. That is the clue we need to unravel this mystery of the Sith.

    Simply showing up with a number of Jedi would totally defeat the purpose of trying to draw the Sith out. They simply wouldn't show themselves in that case.

    So they are stupid and underestimate their opponents. That is rather the point made in these movies over and again. Right from the start with the Jedi themselves. These are clearly not military geniuses but military neophytes who are bunglers. Sidious himself paid not much attention to the Gungans because of his own knowledge of Naboo.

    Why did Tarkin at all care about finding the Rebel base once the Death Star was working? The plans were more important than finding the base but since they didn't think the plans could do much good they let them go. What good were those fighters? Did anyone use them when they invaded? No. Why weren't the Ewoks wiped out on Endor? Why even let the Rebels gain access to Endor at all?

    Why did Hitler and Napoleon be so stupid as to invade Russia? I don't know but people do these things. Why did Sidious not just kill Anakin despite knowing that there was a prophecy that he was the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The Jedi are sent to protect Padme, against the whole TF army, can just two Jedi do that?
    The Jedi also have to take care of a small boy.
    And they are also there to capture this dark warrior.
    Again just two Jedi.
    Either this is a walk in the park or the JC are sending Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to their deaths.

    The possible return of their worst enemy plus war breaking out, that should be an "All hands on deck" situation but the JC don't really bother. Despite them saying they would use ALL their resources here.

    If the Jedi sent 100 Jedi, sure. Sending another 2-3 in addition to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, that would make sense.
    If Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan get killed by the TF/Dark warrior then what have they accomplished?
    They have killed two of their members and Padme is likely dead as well as Anakin.
    And they have learned nothing about the possible Sith.

    If a movie's plot only works if the characters are idiots then you have an Idiot Plot.
    And to me the PT far too often make all the characters, except Palpatine, into idiots in order for the plot to work.
    Some narrative convenience is fine and expected. Too much of it and the story starts to feel contrived.
    In TLJ, the FO chasing the resistance's actions makes no sense and they come across as morons. This is one of several reasons why I think TLJ is quite bad.
    Admiral Holdo's actions also don't make sense and she comes across as a stuck up idiot.
    Again not helping the film.

    Tarkin wanted to destroy the rebels hence why he wanted to find the rebel base.
    Sure they could win by keep blowing up planets until the rebels surrender but that would be far more costly.
    And crushing the rebellion mattered more than getting back the plans. If the rebels are wiped out, the plans are of little concern. Getting the plans back will still mean destroying the rebels as well.

    The fact that the Ewok win against a Legion of the "Best" troops of the empire is a fairly common reason why some people rate RotJ as less good compared with ANH and ESB.

    Making an effort to try to get the events or actions make some sense but having some narrative convenience is one thing. Not even bothering to try to come up with any reason and just have things happen because the plot needs it, that is something else.
    To me, the PT far too often did the latter as opposed to the former.

    Ex, in RotS the Jedi discuss what they should do IF Palpatine does not give up his extra powers.
    The talk about possibilities, what that could mean and that they are not comfortable with that.
    But they discuss options and possible actions. That shows they are thinking.

    Having only Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go back to Naboo with Padme, despite not having any idea what she plans to do, if the blockade is gone, what kind of forces they would be facing, including a possible sith lord. That is not thinking. That is just doing something because the plot requires it.

    Say that ANH showed that the rebels have a lot of fighters but they only sent up five, Luke, Red leader, Biggs, Wedge and Porkins. And no reason is given.
    Would that make sense or seem quite stupid?
    ANH takes the time to explain the rebel plan, they can't use capital ships as the DS is designed against that.
    Small fighters are the only thing they have that can get through the outer defenses.
    And they have studied the plans and found a weak spot and they have a hope, small one to be sure, that it can be done.
    This is making an effort to explain events and actions.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Your entire premise is obviously dripping with sarcasm which is fine but unproductive and doesn't fit the situation as actually presented in the movie.

    The premise that the Jedi could simply send a large amount of knights simply doesn't work on multiple levels. Sending a hundred Jedi would still result in many Jedi being killed if they actually engaged in the battle. Besides that they wouldn't engage as they have no authority to in the first place.

    Quite. All the resources they can use and make sense to use. I don't know what more can be done in the movie unless Lucas would just do what he doesn't do and lay it all out in extreme exposition to the nth degree as to why exactly everything is happening in exacting detail.

    They don't know the Sith are back. They can't fight a war for the Queen.

    They know about one possible maybe Sith but as made clear they don't particularly believe it. They know about one dark warrior. As also made clear in the movie merely sending one Jedi and his apprentice was tricky now in this political situation they are going to send 5? That is still too much to expect any possible single Sith to engage. Remember no one Jedi has ever met a Sith in 1000 years.

    Hardly. The movie makes the specific points within it's own narrative. The Trade Federation are not military. They make mistakes. They aren't "idiots" in that sense like say the First Order who are supposed to be military. Sidious isn't infallible. The situation changes and he adjusts to it. He didn't expect Jedi to be sent to Naboo. He didn't expect Padme to go back to Naboo or the Gungan army to unite with the Naboo. Why would he? He knows the strained relations between the two peoples.

    Which is why complaining about ANYTHING in TPM in comparison doesn't work. We could only hope for a quarter of the execution of any of Lucas' movies.

    TPM like Lucas' other movies gives you as much as you need to get the gist of the basic situation without going to the extremes. TFA and TLJ in particular fell apart as you were watching the movie the first time because they were so utterly nonsensical while here in TPM it was years and years (and probably took some people a dozen viewings or more) before a lot of "problems" were even brought up.

    No doubt one could find all kinds of "problems" with TESB on Hoth if they put their minds to it but since the movie covers the basics very well I don't ever hear much complaint. Obviously there are all kinds of points that they simply couldn't do visually at the time they had to skip over for that reason.

    The Rebels are nothing but an annoyance with the Death Star in place. They destroyed a primary core planet in Alderaan for no reason other than a demonstration so "cost" doesn't factor in.

    Then they weren't paying attention to those movies especially ANH where the Empire got defeated by a few dozen ships vs the Death Star!

    The Ewoks win is actually far more understandable since it was their territory in a surprise attack and they had Rebel help.

    I can't agree with that at all. The reasons are there over and over again but for some reason they simply aren't enough for your interpretation. For example IIRC you have some massive problem with how Qui-Gon handles Anakin yet it's told right there in the movie but you can't accept it.

    Again I would suggest refreshing your memory with watching the movie. What you want them to do to "make sense" is not the same thing as what they are doing as presented as making sense in that specific situation.

    Why didn't the Empire hold the Death Star back and send tons of TIE's to destroy them in the first place then finish it off with the planet disintegration ray?

    Surely that would be the far more logical military play? Yet they just barge in. Why? Because they are overconfident with the Death Star. Brilliant military minds have lost battles through history.

    Besides that what you are saying doesn't work because of the political situation as played out in the movie. As far as the Senate is concerned there at that time there is no authority to say that the Trade Federation is even there at all. What we know is happening and what is actually known in-universe are not the same thing.

    Exactly and the same level of attention is given in TPM yet for some reason you don't accept it there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    What is unproductive is your misrepresentation of what my arguments are. This is a quite common tactic from you, you make up a strawman and then knock it down.

    In my answer to you I very clearly said that sending 100 knights would not be very smart.
    You even quote it later on. Yet here you ascribe an argument to me in order to score points.

    Also, the Jedi have no authority to send even ONE Jedi so they are already breaking that rule.
    So that excuse does not wash.

    Nothing IN the film even hints that the Jedi are needed elsewhere or that their resources are strained. Unlike in AotC.
    So nothing prevented them from sending 4-5 Jedi as opposed to two.

    They want to find out IF the Sith are back, if the two Jedi they send are killed, they find out nothing.
    The Jedi are there to PROTECT the Queen, against the TF army. Can two Jedi do that? And take care of a small boy, and deal with a possible Sith Lord?

    The Jedi are convinced enough to use ALL their resources into this;
    The film says nothing about there being ANY difficulty in sending two, three or five Jedi.
    There was stuff in the script about needing permission from the senate but that is not IN the film.

    The possible sith Lord is clearly working for the TF and thus he can draw upon the full army the TF has on Naboo. And two Jedi can deal with all that?

    The TF have a "battle hardened army" meaning they have fought wars before.
    And yes the TF are idiots, they for no reason leave fueled and armed fighters alone in the place they control. Meaning anyone can fly away with them. They remove their blockade for no reason, they are told that Padme is coming back but call no extra ships to capture her as she arrives.
    They for no reason send an army out to deal with the Gungans instead of blasting them from orbit or simply flying over them and dropping bombs.They don't want prisoners, they want them all dead.

    The Jedi and clone army are idiots on Geonosis as the Jedi display a total lack of strategy or tactics and manage to get a lot of their numbers killed. The clones zerg-rush the droid army, which is great if the goal was to get as many of their numbers killed.

    There is plenty in TPM or the PT that is as lacking in sense as some stuff in TLJ.

    Disagree, many of TPM's problems were glaringly obvious to me from my first viewing. Probably why I only watched it once in theaters, the only SW film that I saw only once in theaters. I did see it again on VHS and later on DVD.

    On the ST forum I've noticed that some complain that the MF was on Jakku, that is was too convenient.
    Making a fuss about that but seeing no issue with the many other "conveniences" in SW, like Anakin for reason being brought along to a war. That I don't much get.

    Or perhaps the reason why TPM is not rated as highly as ESB and why some people have more issues with it is that there are more problems in it compared to ESB.
    That ESB simply is told better.

    The rebellion is the main enemy the empire has at this point. Tarkin wanted a demonstration to pacify the population but he also wanted to destroy the rebels. A one-two punch that will end any sedition or rebellion. This made very clear in the film.
    Some, Motti I think it was, disregarded the rebels and dis-missed them as a threat. He later was dismissive of the Force and got put in his place by Vader. Other imperials disagreed and said the rebels were too well-equipped and more dangerous than others realize.
    So some imperials are arrogant and overconfident but others are not so dismissive.

    The rebels had studied the DS and found two weaknesses, that it's defenses are designed against capital ships and also the exhaust port leading to the main reactor.
    The rebels don't just send ships blindly, hoping for the best. They have a plan.
    And the imperials notice that their weapons are ineffective against fighters and so they send TIE's instead.
    And they are also able to figure out what the rebels plan is and see that there is a danger.
    So both sides are shown as being able to think.

    Hardly, more idiocy again. The troopers just run into the woods, no plan and leaving the base and the rebels alone and also letting their tanks go out alone.

    In the film Qui-Gon wants Anakin to hide and stay safe, he says this.
    What is never said or even attempted to be explained is why he didn't leave him on Coruscant or the Gungan hideout. NOTHING even hints at he could not do either.
    So Anakin is there because the plot needs it.

    I could say the same. NO reason is given why Qui-Gon brings a small boy to a war zone and not one person questions it.
    Never is it established that Padme or the Jedi knew the blockade was gone before they went back and no reason is given why the blockade is just gone.
    Why no other Jedi go with Qui-Gon on this very important mission is not explained nor why the TF left those fighters alone

    The empire didn't consider a small fighter to be any threat, that is why they designed their defenses that way. Watch the film, they say this.
    However when the fighters attack and they realize the surface weapons are ineffective, they change tactics.
    At that point, moving back would do bugger all.

    And this has what to do with anything?
    The Jedi council surely knows the TF are there, they were told by Qui-Gon.
    And they know Padme is going back there and this could draw out her mysterious attacker.
    The Jedi are sworn to protect the republic, a republic that the TF have attacked by invading a republic world, killing who knows how many.
    Add to that, they want to protect Padme, who is going to war. And a possible sith lord.

    Since NOTHING even hinted at them being unable to send more than two Jedi, not a word about needing senate permission, which they don't have for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan so that point is moot anyway.
    The Jedi ARE involving themselves, it is pointless to deny that.

    Nothing about them being busy or not having people to spare, not one thing at all.
    Only two Jedi go back because that is what the plot demands and so it happens.
    No attempt to explain why they don't get help or what they should do about the blockade and so on.

    No, the same level of attention hasn't been given to TPM or the PT in general or else I would not be saying this. The acting, the writing, the directing. Sometimes it is lacking, not always but often enough to bother me.
    To me, ANH and ESB had more a feel of "We have to make the best film we possibly can with what we have."
    With the PT I got a sense of "This is good enough."
    With the ST I get a sense of "We had this plan in mind but now we do this instead and we have not much of an overall idea."

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  18. Vic and Bob

    Vic and Bob Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2018
    My problem with Anakin being so young is the disconnect between TPM and AOTC. Suddenly, your introduced to a new actor and although he's playing the same character, it's as though I'm having to get to know him all over. There's an element of adjustment that I don't think I would have felt having Hayden throughout the trilogy.
    I do get the decision as to why casting a young kid, in theory, would sell the seperation anxiety etc... but having Anakin leave his mother as a teenager would have sold his anger and frustration, along with that typical teenage angst I'm sure most of us can relate to. So, taking that character in to AOTC would have shown a character arc consistant with a young man discovering his maturity, while at the same time struggling with dreams of his mother, forbidden feelings toward Padme and let's not forget the whole 'chosen one' expectation... Oh, let's not forget he had to deal with Palps messing with his brain simultaneously! Now I think of it, of course he was gonna turn to the dark side... poor kid :vader:
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That reintroduction was important in establishing how much Anakin had changed between the boy he was and the young man he was now. It plays out well with Padme still seeing him as nine and not nineteen. You see his frustration with change and with Padme not seeing him in a different light, until much later on.
     
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Good point. I don't think Anakin's caring for his mother would have changed much if his character was older, but the way he deals with her loss is where the changes would happen.

    I do think being dependent on his mother when he leaves as a 9 year old and not being ready to go ads to the problems Anakin has later with the Dark Side. If he was 15 when he left, I'm not sure Anakin would have felt the same needing attachment and fear of loss. Being whisked away like that and thrown into a new world with very little time to adjust meant a part of Anakin never had time to come to terms with all of those changes and move past being a 9 year old when it came to his mother.

    And as silly as it is that Anakin is told to hide in a cockpit which then results in him destroying a huge space ship and saving the day, that shows how talented he is. It also shows how radically different his life became as soon as he left Tatooine. And lets face it, Anakin is the real deal or he would not have be able to destroy the Trade Federation ship. What looks like blind luck is Anakin's own instinct guided by the Force. The kids a natural.

    The other difference is how much time has passed. Not just the difference between leaving at 9 and returning at 19 vs. leaving at 15 and coming back four years later at 19. 15 and 19 is not only 6 year less, but developmentally I'd say the difference between 9 and 19 is bigger than the difference between 15 and 35. Anakin is away more than half his life when he returns in Attack of the Clones.

    Anakin is playing so much catch up on being a Jedi and understanding his own powers, I think he largely locked away what happened with his mother instead of coming to terms with it. And the Jedi aren't set up to help him with that. The Jedi consider attachment such a problem, they recruits new Jedi so young that they don't even remember their parents or life before the Jedi Order. If 9 was too old for Anakin to become a Jedi, 15 may have been out of the question completely.

    When Anakin returns to Tatooine in Attack of the Clones part of his reaction comes from who he was at age 9. And that reaction is now backed up with the power and knowledge he has. Not only have the Jedi not trained Anakin for this situation, after the fact Anakin can not tell the Jedi what happened in order to get help going forward. So Anakin turns to Padme help. And instead of taking some time to deal with his feeling Anakin rushes into a relationship with Padme.

    Instead of coming to terms with his feelings of need, attachment, and fear of loss, Anakin transfers those to Padme. And it's those feelings that the Emperor is able to manipulate.

    It's interesting that Padme is mostly immune to Anakin's charms when he is actively trying to show off how grown up he is. Once Anakin accepts nothing is going to happen things get better, or normal, on a personal level. But it's not until tragedy hits and the loss of his mother puts a vulnerable Anakin and Padme back into the same dynamic as when they first met, that she falls for him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  21. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Agree to the first, not necessarily to the second.

    The fear of loss could still be there but in a different way. A slightly older Anakin could be aware that he could bring more money to their household, as much as they could get given them being slaves.
    And he might have more concrete ideas how to free himself and his mother from that slavery.
    So he could feel more responsible for her and then leaving her behind, that could give rise to feelings of guilt. Then she dies, in horrible circumstances, and Anakin feelings of guilt magnify.
    Had he stayed when he was freed, he could have had a reasonable chance to free his mother at some point. But he left and didn't come back. And a somewhat older Anakin might have tried harder to argue that his mother needed help but the Jedi didn't comply.
    In that case, since he was older, him leaving the Jedi and going back himself might have a higher chance of working than when he was nine.
    Nine year old Anakin, I am sure he asked Obi-Wan if they could free his mother and he was most likely told no. Given how young he was, he would not likely try to leave and go back on his own.
    So what might change is how Anakin views the Jedi, at a young age, he has no means to save his mother and would look to the Jedi to help and they do not. That could plant a seed of resentment in Anakin.
    And he could blame them for his mothers death, which he did.
    An older Anakin could leave on his own and do something if the Jedi do not. So that he didn't, that he was swept up in becoming a Jedi. That he still had that pang of guilt, he didn't push as hard as he could. Or so he sees it. Then she dies, now the blame is more on him and his guilt would be very big as would his desire to not fail again in this manner.

    Disagree, this did not show talent, it was just a contrivance.
    Having a regular guy fight a person with black belt in Karate and winning, that does not make the regular guy look impressive, it makes the other person look weak or the situation silly.
    If the Force is doing the work, then Anakin is just there for the ride and he does nothing on his own.
    To contrast, Luke in ANH does know what he is doing and his own skill is shown. Him letting go and choosing to trust the Force and use that to add to his own skill and thus blow up the DS.
    That showed that Luke was skilled and that the Force was with him.
    And I would say that ANH showed how much Luke's life changed when he left Tatooine and he was 18-19.

    Yes a person changes more between 9 and 19 than between 19 and 29 but there lies the problem.
    Anakin in AotC is so different to Anakin in TPM that they might as well be two different people.
    So a lot of change and growth with Anakin occurs off-screen and the result is a bit jarring.

    The Jedi taking in Jedi to be at a very young age was by no means a given. The normal age could be 14-15 so age is not an issue for Anakin.
    To me, a problem I have with both the Jedi and Padme is that they both leave Shmi to rot.
    Both are aware that little Anakin misses her and worries about her and at least Padme would know that this could be damaging to young Anakin. Even the Jedi, despite them not knowing their parents, should have some idea what this kind of separation could do to a young person.
    But they do nothing.
    That made them, to me, seem cold and uncaring. Perhaps that was the intent.
    That the Jedi are to blame, that they made a bad situation worse.

    Anakin certainly could have told the Jedi what happened. He choose not to because he figured that they would punish him in some manner or kick him out of the Jedi order. So he hide the truth because he didn't want to face the consequences of his actions.
    That he turned to Padme, ok, that she did not even suggest seeking help or telling Obi-Wan, that is more dubious on her part.
    Them rushing into a relationship, yes not very smart.

    But if we had a slightly older Anakin, then a relationship between him and Padme could be established in TPM. And to me that Anakin has not stopped thinking about Padme for ten years, given his young age and the little time they spent together. That was a touch creepy.

    Palpatine could also manipulate Anakin's feelings of guilt and failure. In AotC Anakin swears that he will not fail again and that was a very dangerous promise. That could still be there.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  22. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Simple. They wanted a trilogy showing masked Vader killing people and spouting one-liners. The story of a once innocent child who became corrupted and fell to evil? That wasn’t Vader to them.
     
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't think that's quite fair. Most people who didn't like child Anakin seemed to have wanted a trilogy about an adult hero being corrupted by war. That's fine for them, but Lucas wanted to tell a different story. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with the story he wanted to tell. In fact, I think Lucas's story is a more interesting one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  24. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I'm wondering if this same sort of thing is what gets Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy in trouble.

    This isn't spoilers, just my hunch,
    I think the Knights of Ren are the six students Luke said left with Ben Solo after they destroyed the Jedi temple. We meet the Broom Boy in The Last Jedi, another Anakin like Force sensitive kid. I'm wondering if Luke's fledgling Jedi Order brings in a number of kids with Anakin like backgrounds as part of the first class and those kids experience the same problems with separation. As those students learn to use the Force those issues might get worse as they catch glimpses of what is going on with the people they left behind. Also their growing knowledge and power with the Force means they could go back home and make a difference for good.

    Maybe Luke doesn't ignore these problems the way Yoda's Jedi Order did. But Luke deals with the students feelings and how they can cope with and get past them. What Luke doesn't do is take action to help the people those kids left behind. That might have worked just fine, expect Ben Solo is there to offer an alternative.

    What if Ben Solo helps those students go on secret missions to help the people they left behind? In a short time these students could become more loyal to Ben Solo and their fellow confederates than they are to Luke and the New Jedi. This would also provide a path way for Kylo Ren and Snoke to turn those students to the Dark Side.

    That bond of connection seems like a powerful lure to the Dark Side. If 9 was too old, 15 is definitely too old. Apparently Ahsoka Tano joining the Jedi around age 3 was considered to be in on the older side of acceptable age for joining the Jedi Order.

    I think Qui-Gon might have been up to the task of training a 9 year old Anakin. Maybe Yoda. Poor Obi-Wan did his best. While Anakin doesn't turn to the Dark Side until Revenge of the Sith, he marries Padme in Attack of the Clones. I'm not sure there was any going back from what happened with the Sandpeople. So by that point Obi-Wan's teaching might already have been too little too late.

    Then again, had Obi-Wan not gotten captured on Geonisis, Anakin and Padme never would not have been in that life or death situation that caused them to pledge their love to each other.

    That's the thing. The relationship that becomes the basis for Anakin and Padme's romance is started in Phantom Menace. Anakin saves the day by winning the pod race which earns Padme's respect and gratitude. It's after they leave Tatooine on the Naboo Royal Starship. During the conversation when Anakin gives Padme the japor snippet. and Padme says she will always care about Anakin. And that's true. The japor snippet necklass is sort of like a Citizen Kane / Rosebud moment when we see it again at Padme's funeral in Revenge of the Sith. It was supposed to bring her good fortune.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  25. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I can't say one way or another because there is not a lot to go on.
    From what I remember, the destruction of Luke's academy was what, 5-6 years before TFA?

    Had Ben been there all that long? Leia said that she sent Ben away and there she lost him, so that sounds like he would be pretty young. At least under 15-16.

    Would Luke go with take children at a young age?
    Why?
    He was not that young, so why would he start with that approach?
    Did Yoda tell him?
    Again why? Yoda seemed to realize that their approach with Anakin was not a good idea.

    The problem that Luke's academy faced was Ben/Kylo. It did not seem an overall problem with too young students.
    Perhaps Ben just left Leia and Han at the wrong time.

    Not sure, 9 years old can be worse than 15. At 15 the bond has started to become weaker and a bit more flexible. Most people have a close bond to their parents/primary caregiver and this is normal and healthy.
    And this bond gets weaker and loose as they grow up until they can leave them behind.
    A sudden severing of that bond can instead give rise to problems.
    Esp if the child has reasons to worry about the parent and has no means to contact them.
    So someone at 15 has less of a bond and thus has an easier time to adjust and is a bit more mature and experienced.

    So very young, before any bond has formed, that can work, or older, when the bond has naturally grown weak, that can also work. Anakin's age could be the worst age to do this. The bond is strong and the child is ill equipped to deal with it on their own and if there is no help, issues can arise.

    Luke suffered looses but he was old enough to deal with them.

    An other factor, as I mentioned, is not knowing. That can be worse than knowing.
    A child that has a parent die when they are young. They will be sad and miss that parent but they can learn to deal with it and not become chained to grief.
    If a parent instead just vanishes and the child has no idea if they are alive or dead. They are in limbo, should they grieve? They don't know if the parent is dead or not.
    Same thing applies to adults. Parents that has a child die, that is terrible and they will mourn and feel bad.
    But they might be able to move on and let it go.
    If a child is taken or goes missing, that can be worse. The grief process might not start as the hope of the child coming back is still there.

    Anakin was left in limbo, he missed and worried about his mother and had no means to check up on her and the Jedi did nothing about it.

    Qui-Gon, yes that I can see. I think that had he lived, he would have tried again to free Shmi and let Anakin know that his mother was free and lived well. To put Anakin's mind at ease.

    Could Anakin come back after AotC?
    Hard to say, keeping silent was the wrong move.
    Telling Obi-Wan?
    Had he just been ejected from the order, that might not have helped.
    Then again, he could then marry Padme and not lie about it.

    What if Anakin never got his dreams about Padme dying?
    If he hadn't then he would not have been so obsessed to "stop death" and thus might not listen to Palpatine's tales of Plaug.

    [/QUOTE]

    But as a basis for a romance, it did not work for me.
    Nine year old Anakin obsessing for ten years over a girl that he spent a few days with. That seems unhealthy.
    And I doubt Padme had any "romantic" feelings for Anakin in TPM.
    So it all has to happen in AotC and that made it feel "forced" to me.

    It is not so much about "wanted" but seeing the end result and having issues with it.
    I get what the idea was.
    I just think that the drawbacks outweighed the gains.

    The uneven acting, a major character has to be recast. Logical issues with having a kid come along to a war zone for no reason. That two important relationships were not given much time and had to be forced/rushed in AotC. Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship was not started or developed. And in AotC they seemed to be at odds a lot so the friendship seemed to be strained already.
    The romance between Anakin and Padme, as I said, it felt a bit rushed in AotC as a lot has to happen.

    Bye for now.
    Mr "Insert-Name-Here."