ST Why do you think Han 'dissapointed' Kylo as a father?

Still didn't kill him, and Luke knew exactly what he did. He wasn't harmed by the faux stabbage. In fact he talked to him unharmed after he smirked and then vanished. Luke knew exactly what he was doing could be fatal. And he did it any way.

So I'll ask again, how exactly did Kylo Ren murder Luke Skywalker?

 

Honestly, I feel a big reason that Kylo doesn't work nearly as well as Vader is because of the tragedy aspect. Anakin was a Jedi, one of the most powerful in the galaxy, who fought on the side to protect billions of lives, all while regularly putting his life in danger for his friends if need be. He had the same visions of Padme that he had before his mother's death, and by ROTS, he cared about her more than everyone else combined. He would do anything to save her, and it seemed to him that the dark side was the only way, and it corrupted him until he became the broken man he was in ANH.

As far as we know, Kylo was just a standard kid with loving parents who decided killing people was fun.

1. The "angsty edgy teen" thing doesn't work because Kylo is like 30.

2. Kylo has no reason to turn dark. Heck, I have more reason to turn dark. And literally most of the human population does. If I was walking down the street, and a random old guy said "hey, go kill people" and I do, does that make me sympathetic just because I'm a teen? And no, Kylo hesitating to kill Han is not a sympathetic trait. Him hesitating to kill someone in no way changes the fact that he ended someone's life.

 

Well Han, with no Force, stood there with a light saber through him for awhile before he keeled over so a) the stabbing in the non corporeal world could have still done it and b)
what does "Luke knew exactly what he did" have to do with it?

You said it yourself "Luke knew exactly what he was doing could be fatal." He didn't have to do it except for Kylo.

All we know is Luke "expired." Could have been from the effort, but it didn't seem to hurt Snoke, who made Kylo and Rey's "visions" work. Then again, Snoke didn't have a light saber run through him or the fire from a dozen AT-AT ripoffs aimed at him.

 

Oh please. Kylo only was able to stab Luke because Luke allowed it. It's the effort of projecting that takes so much energy it drains someone's life force. The scene showed how Luke basically was able to avoid Kylo's blade consistently until he decided to reveal to Kylo that he wasn't really there.

The accurate statement here is: Kylo wanted to murder Luke Skywalker.

Luke sacrificed himself in order to stall Kylo and the FO, which gave the others the time they needed to escape. But that's not the same thing as "Kylo murdered Luke."

 

He hated Han because he wasn't an epic dark sider.

 

Except for that part that went something like...

 

Even by that charitable description, it wasn't for lack of trying.

He's just as dead.

ETA: Again, there is no definition of "I didn't hate him" that somehow also includes "so I ran him through with my light saber, thanked him for dying and pushed him off a gantry."

 

Han disappointed Kylo because he wasn't an epic dark sider.

 

My statement isn't charitable. I agree Kylo is trying to kill Luke, but he can't because Luke isn't even there.

 

@ the OP. I'm more interested to know why the writers did. Seems important.

 

He's just as dead - from the exhaustion of trying to stop Kylo from wiping the Resistance, including Kylo's own mother, out of existence. His efforts ended in Luke's death. If Luke had been there in the flesh, he would have run him through, just like he ran his father through. If I was prosecuting him, I'd sure as hell add it to the charge sheet.

Doesn't matter that Luke knew the risks or whatever. Next you'll be telling me Kylo isn't responsible for Han because Han should have known Kylo would kill him.

 

I don't think there is an in universe reason. I honestly think they just wrote the line because that's how they decided they wanted Ren to be viewed/portrayed. I honestly doubt there was a detailed discussion on the relationship between father and son.

 

Kylo did indeed try to kill Luke. Twice, it seems. That’s not in dispute.

 

From a dark slider perspective, I think he resented Han primarily because he is a common, non-force user. I look at Kylo as a snob in terms of using the force. Leia is part of the Darth Vader lineage (the side he is proud of). Han, while a war hero, is a common criminal.

However, generously reading between the lines, I think Kylo resents himself much more. He is part of that common lineage and taking his “I didn’t hate him” statement at face value, Ben/Kylo didn’t always resent his father for not being a force user. He was probably proud of his daddy when he was younger and that is what he resents (that is the kind of humanity that gets in the way of the dark side). He is not as bada*** a darksider as he would like to project to the galaxy and I think he is very aware of it.

 

I think it says more about Kylo's immaturity than anything about Han.

This.

As far as Kylo "killing" Luke, I wouldn't really put it that way, but I understand the argument. You might say Kylo killed Luke indirectly. I wouldn't say Anakin killed Padme, but you might say he did because he caused her to "lose the will to live". One might put the blame on Anakin for Padme's death, and it would be believable if Anakin did blame himself for her death.

 

I agree, @PendragonM . While Kylo didn’t directly kill Luke as he directly killed his own father, Kylo was still the cause of Luke’s death. If Luke hadn’t been trying to help his sister and the other resistance survivors from being killed by Kylo and the first order through the force projection, he wouldn’t have died. If Kylo hadn’t joined snoke and become a mass murderer in the first place, Luke wouldn’t be dead and Han wouldn’t be dead. So Kylo was the cause of both of them being dead.

It still annoys me though that the force projection killed Luke, while a very similar looking feat, the force Skyping, which also involved physical aspects, didn’t even cause snoke to break a sweat. This made Luke’s “big moment” look really lame, especually since it killed him.

 

Well, I don't think he needs to have shown any light at all, all people have a light side, even Kylo. But to answer the question, I would say his admitting to Vader's helmet that he could feel the pull of the light side was evidence there is a light side there. Also, his inability to kill his mother was a hint of light. We're talking the smallest possible speck of light, I admit.

 

The gripe some fans have with those hints of light are that they didn't affect the plot. You could take the tears out, for example, and the story would play the same. Even when Kylo spared Leia, someone else came along and blasted the Raddus bridge.

 

I hold Kylo responsible for killing Luke. Had Kylo decided every last survivor of the defeated Resistance, including his mother, didn’t need to be murdered, Luke would be alive. It’s not like the FO didn’t have bigger fish to fry at that moment, like conquering the worlds of the gffa. In terms of the law, if we want to get technical, let’s call it felony murder. But I mean, why get technical? Kylo wanted to kill Luke and tried to kill Luke and the act of standing up to Kylo did, in fact, kill Luke. The only way for Luke to save Leia and the other survivors from Kylo was to do what he did, which mandated death.

I agree with the sentiment that Kylo and Han’s relationship hasn’t been written yet. Kylo calling Han a disappointment could mean anything at this point. Until/unless someone tackles that in a film, it will continue to mean anything. Han could have been an abusive drunk of a dad. He could have been neglectful. It could just mean that he’s a non-force using loser in Kylo’s eyes. Or maybe Kylo didn’t like his cooking.