PT Why does there seem to be a near-consensus that AOTC is worse than TPM?

AOTC has it's flaws almost like all SW movies have some sort of flaw but the last 35 minutes of AOTC is some of the best Star Wars out there,

AOTC is without a doubt IMHO better than TPM as I will and can never get over the train wreck that is Jar Jar binks......

 

I prefer TPM Anakin over what we got in AoTC. I didn't like the whole tusken massacre scene. Hard rooting for him at the opening of RoTS and TCW knowing what he did. There are better ways to foreshadow Vader then wiping out an entire tusken tribe. Killing younglings in RoTS should have been his 1st time killing children. Would help in showing how far he has fallen and also Padmes shock/denial from Obiwans statement that Anakin killed younglings.

 

Two things about that scene always seemed weird to me. The first is obviously that we're still supposed to be rooting for Anakin at this point and that's basically impossible afterward.

The second is that Anakin's first steps into the dark side are from a random occurrence. You'd think Palpatine, the master manipulator, would have had a hand in Anakin's first use of the darkside, but nope.

 

To me, that depends on your perspective of Palpatine. Is he a 3D multilevel chess master with every single point planned out? Or is he someone who can manipulate and for the most part has a plan, but not everything, and can tend to use the situations at hand to his advantage. I more lean to the 2nd.

Similar to the tusken raiders thing. Do you view the tusken raiders as anything other than what the movie itself has characters say they are and shows they've done to Shmi? The movie has a character say they're animals. In the movies, they've only been shown to indiscriminately attack people. This doesn't justify Anakin. But I don't know if I'd suggest it should have to, for the situation.

 

HOW PALPATINE IS PRESENTED: Extremely lucky.

HOW LUCAS TALKS ABOUT HIM: A Master Manipulator

I'm not going to delve into the writing talents of George Lucas on this one. It seems everyone universally loves how Palpatine is written in the PT and I'm not about to tear that down.

Regardless of how the characters think of them, we (the audience) are shown a scene in which the Emperor's theme is played while Anakin talks about killing "women and children" so OUR understanding is that Anakin just did something absolutely terrible. Seems very weird for a movie where Anakin is supposed to be this great Jedi BEFORE his fall from grace.

tl:dr that whole sequence could have been handled better.

 

I don't think of the character as a perfect manipulator. I think of him as a manipulator who can use situations to his advantage. I wouldn't necessarily he gets "lucky" much more than any manipulator would.

I said that it doesn't justify his actions. And I don't suggest the movie has to.

I don't think it works character wise for him to be a great honorable person who did the right thing all the time before becoming a villain.

 

It wouldn't work at all. We're in agreement there. But imagine, instead of it being Tuskens that killed Shmi, instead Dooku sends a group of mercenaries to capture Shmi. (Dooku does this because he knows that Anakin is protecting Padme and he knows that if Anakin is drawn to Tatooine then Padme will be with him and Dooku wants Padme captured so she can be delivered to Gunray)

So, Anakin finds these mercenaries, reaches his mother, and she dies in his arms. We cut to the camp the next morning, Anakin has killed all but one of them. He questions the last one, finds out they were sent by Dooku, and then leaves the last one for dead with no transport and no water.

As the audience we still realize that Anakin did something bad, but we can put ourselves in his shoes. I can rationalize killing hired thugs out of anger for killing a family member, but I can't rationalize killing kids.

Throw in a line afterwards where he's talking to Padme about it where he says, "What is the use of all this power (meaning the force) if I can't even protect my own family" and BOOM you have a character still deserving of empathy who just took his first steps down the dark path, had a lead-in as to why he ultimately falls, AND it's linked back to Palpatine thru Dooku.

 

I don't believe Palpatine was lucky, or presented as one in the PT movies, I can tell you that he was actually unlucky;

-He lost his first apprentice Maul, with a bad luck. It was mentioned even in the movie novel that it was bad luck and he later said in a canon comic book that Maul was a loss. (Lucas also mentioned this, that Sidious shouldn't have lost his first apprentice)
-Then he wanted Obi-Wan dead in Episode III when he instructed Dooku to kill Obi-Wan, but again Obi-Wan got lucky, he didn't die in Episode III.
-Then his final apprentice, and his prized pupil Vader got mutiliated by Obi-Wan, he ended up with a Maul/Dooku tier apprentice once again, instead of having someone who is potentially stronger than himself.
-He defeated Yoda, but Yoda somehow survived that confrontation and he manages to escape, and then he learns how to become a Force ghost from Qui-Gon, if he died there, Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't learn that ability.

I agree.

 

In theory, I have an interest in that idea, but:

Personally, that feels more master-mindy than I prefer, and isn't in play with my perception of the situation with Palpatine.

There's also the added element of when Anakin finds out who Palpatine is, understanding that he was behind Dooku, moreso than is actually in the movie, why wouldn't he try to kill him? Why wait so long until Luke is in danger? Why would Palpatine allow someone who would want such aggressive revenge on him to continue being so close to him?

I wouldn't want Anakin's actions to feel so much like it's trying to be justified. Anakin's not becoming a tortured anti-hero. He's becoming a villain. Who will assist in the killing of a whole planet.

 

I saw a combination of both.

Um . . . you did follow the story. Right?

 

After Padme dies, I don't buy that Anakin wouldn't straight try to kill this guy. And I don't buy Palpatine working with someone for so long who'd have that agenda. And once he'd reveal himself to Anakin, I think, to me, he'd suspect Anakin would want that.

 

About whether Palpatine should be presented as the master-manipulator who manipulated everything to turn Anakin, or if he was more or less lucky, I agree with @dagenspear that, in the films, Palpatine basically turns things to his advantage. It wasn't him who kidnapped Shmi. It wasn't him who planted the dream about Padme dying in Anakin's head (or so it would seem). It wasn't him who created Anakin in the first place.

It seems that Lucas himself decided against going with the "mastermind" angle, because in the first draft of Revenge of the Sith, Shmi's kidnapping is revealed to be orchestrated by Dooku, and Anakin is revealed to be created by Palpatine himself. In both cases, Lucas decided not to reveal that, and to leave things a bit more ambiguous (which is, I think, a good choice). Perhaps it was Palpatine who was behind everything that ever happened to Anakin. And perhaps, he just turned things to his advantage. It doesn't really matter, in the end.

I'd also add that Palpatine's main goal was NOT to turn Anakin to the dark side, but to become the Emperor of the galaxy. All his manipulation was focused on getting himself more power (the invasion of Naboo, the clone wars...). The plan to lure Anakin came much later, it seems, and it wasn't entirely orchestrated by Palpatine, but came as a result of Anakin's inner flaws. But Palpatine did NOT need to turn Anakin at all to achieve his goal.

 

The Sith order live on this apparent contradiction. The master train an apprentice knowing that sooner or later for the lust of power he will try to assassinate him. This is necessary for the reinforcement of the order becoming always more powerful than before, but again the master will try to postpone how much long possibile this moment, for lust of power and attachment to the life. Equally the apprentice accept to follow the orders of the master knowing that if the things come as they have to, one of them will be killed from the other.

During the duel with Yoda, Sidious explicitely stated that Vader will become more powerful than both of them. He accepts the idea that Vader's potential will overcome him a day, and it's ready to it. The only important thing is to pass to him the Sith legacy, so makinf of Vader an individual that will adopt and pass to someone the teachings of the dark side and the guidance of the Galactic Empire.

Following Vader's defeat on Mustafar, Palpatine's plans change. Vader is no more the perfect apprentice that he wished and he could be never overcome him. Again it reamains an individual maybe replaceable in future, but nowadays indispensable for his potential and the control of the new government. He doesn't say simply to Vader that Padmé died, but he wish make believe him that he ended to kill her (that form a certain pov is true, but not as Sidious tell to Vader). Vader is broken physically and with this revelation now even in the spirit. It's hard to think that he could attempt to his life when not he hasn't more the physical abilities for doing it, a personal reason (he wished to rule with his famility) and his thoughts are maybe more of guilty and hate toward himsefl than greed.

Would have Vader won the duel with Obi-Wan without sustening wounds and Padmé survived to ROTS, surely we would have got different plans for Palpatine to his apprentice and this bring directly to this other matter:

I believe that it's a summa of both. Palpatine has plans for reaching certain purposes, but again he doesn't plan everything or not anything goes as he plans, he is "just" able to adapt constantly to the situation. For example in AOTC he force the Jedi Order to put Anakin in defense of Padmé. If Jango kills her she is an obstacle in less for the starting of the future war, but if he fails he can see if the feelings of Anakin for her - originated in TPM without the intervention of anyone - can give birth to a relationship between them easy to be exploited in future for bringing the boy to the dark side. And about the war it can always start manipulating other people during the forceful absence of Padmè from the senate. Equally Palpatine is not behind the frustration of Anakin toward the jedi for the order's attitude toward him, but assigning to the boy a first real mission alone, can be seen to his eyes as someone more trusty and grateful.

 

That would ultimately tie-in with why Anakin decides to join with Palpatine eventually in Episode III. Anakin finds out that his wife is pregnant and wants his child to be born during a time of peace. Anakin comes to the realization that someone needs to be in control of all this chaos and once he realizes that Palpatine is behind everything, he lets Palpatine turn the Republic into an Empire with the plan to usurp the throne so-to-speak, only to have Padme turn against him and Obi-Wan mortally wound him. This is also why Vader is so adamant about Luke joining with him in TESB to finally take over the Empire. It would also be why Vader is basically a depressed old man in ROTJ; he realizes his life goal is unattainable at this point.

Anakin killing mercenaries would only be justifiable from an emotional standpoint, but not from a moral one. That's why it doesn't immediately register as inherently evil, but (in retrospect, after seeing Episode III) is seen as his first step toward the dark side. That way you get to maintain "hero Anakin" through Episode II.

You have to chalk that up to weak writing. George Lucas never really marries Anakin joining the Sith to save Padme with Anakin wanting an evil Empire. ROTS would make more sense if Anakin wanted an Empire so he can keep the citizens of the Republic safe, especially his wife. IMHO the nightmares about Padme were just a retread of the nightmares he had in Episode II and were kinda lame.

 

That doesn't connect, to me, with Anakin not trying to kill Palpatine after finding out he had his mom killed.

In theory, i like it. But I don't think it works, for me.

To me, that's a conclusion to his whole story. He fears losing his mom in TPM. He loses her in AOTC. And in ROTS he's faced with that loss again. I don't necessarily think they need to be married as concept, beyond what I see in it, which is that Anakin hates feeling powerless, including the loss of those he loves and feeling restricted by the jedi. I don't see why him not killing Palpatine, after finding he killed his mom is weak writing, that's not in the movie. I can by Vader, in concept, being unwilling to kill Palpatine at the risk of being killed himself in regards to trying to overthrow him, in his post ROTS condition. I find that harder, after he finds out he was behind his mom being killed.

 

Anakin wants the Clone Wars to be over and the Separatists to be destroyed. Anakin hates Palpatine once he finds out that Palpatine has been the master manipulator, but Anakin also realizes that if he strikes Palpatine down, the war could possibly limp on for years, especially once both sides aren't being directed from one source. Anakin has to face the fact that the war is basically a sham, but will turn into a real war if Palpatine is killed, thus making things worse. Therefore, killing Palpatine stands in stark contradiction to Anakin's main goal; ending the war.

 

That wouldn't stop him afterwards.

 

It would if he's in a robot suit and Palpatine has the ability to shoot lightning from his hands.

 

Not sure what you are trying to get at here. To me the Tusken are exactly as they are shown in the movies, yes, basically "mindless monsters". I refuse to buy that old native American metaphor. But there is a huge other thread for that single topic. Better to discuss there. The topic has been discussed to death there already.

 

My point is, my view of the situation is that Anakin in that moment lets himself be consumed by anger and pain and attacks what he sees or chooses to see, moreso I think in that moment, as animals. It's not justifying Anakin, to me, as I think the movie lays it on thick that he was wrong and he knows it. I even think there's some acting, whether intended by Lucas or not, where Padme seems, to me, to be put off by it and almost apprehensive and when she does sit down on the floor with him, I think she almost flinches, as far as I remember.

I don't know if I'd buy he would care as much after finding out he was behind the death of his mom.

 

Well, by that account Palpatine is behind the assassination attempts on Padme in the actual PT and Anakin doesn't seem to mind that at all either.

 

I think I would call that a flaw. But also, Padme didn't die from that. Shmi dies.

 

Palpatine sold out the woman who would be Anakin's wife and caused her to almost be murdered on two separate occasions. He's also behind every death the war has caused. I have to disagree with you about whether Shmi would really be the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, if Anakin is focused on ending the war and he wants a safe galaxy for his wife and soon to be born child, I doubt he would strik down Palpatine, thus causing the war to carry on toward an indefinite end. His mom is already dead, but he can still make a deal with the Devil to protect his wife and child.

 

A situation I can buy he'd hate him for, but not try to kill him at the risk of his life, post mustafar. I don't think that about the death of his mom.

There's nothing to stop him after the war is ended.