main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why does there seem to be a near-consensus that AOTC is worse than TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by JediVision, Dec 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Oh come now, let’s not play the shocked and indignant victim here old bean. Trying to play down a poster’s criticism on the grounds that they haven’t written or co-written a hit movie as you did was a cheeky ad hominem on your part. You should have the good grace to admit it instead of this pantomime.

    “He's definitely a better writer than the average person” Is an opinion.

    “How many hit movies have you written or co-written?” Is not. It’s a question. Moreover, it’s a question designed to invalidate the poster’s criticism by way of an ad hominem jab at their own comparative writing credentials, when they haven’t professed to even being a writer of movies. It’s a kind of “tu quoque” or appeal to accomplishment type of fallacy. Either way, it’s poor form.

    xx
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
    Doompup likes this.
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It's just my opinion. What exactly are you trying to do? Prove my opinion wrong? That doesn't make any sense.
     
  3. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I think you are being deliberately obtuse here my friend lol
     
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Obtuse? I don't see why you feel the need to insult me yet again. I didn't insult you. I think you should probably drop it.
     
  5. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Obtuse isn't an insult, it's a remark on behaviour.

    If you can't see that this is not actually an opinion

    but is instead a question, a loaded one at that, and in fact an ad hominem where you bring into question the credentials of the person making the criticism, then I can't help you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    It's just my opinion. I don't understand why you have such a problem with that. I think you should just let it go and stop derailing the thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  7. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    Okay I will, but I think you need to go back to school bro and learn what an opinion actually is, and how it differs from a question.
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Again with the insults. But thank you for dropping it.
     
  9. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    This is just me, but I feel like TPM actually works because it feels like this self-contained story. It's far enough removed from the original trilogy that it's allowed to be more light-hearted and silly, and it's a fun movie overall. Whereas AOTC is supposed to tell the story of the rise of the Empire, but IMO it gave us a plot that didn't make sense and also didn't deliver on the darker mood I was expecting. So yeah, when it comes to ranking the prequels I go: TPM > ROTS > AOTC.
     
  10. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    How does the plot not makes sense though?

    I'd also say that the tone was quite a bit darker. Assassination attempts, assassins getting killed themselves, Shmi dying, Anakin slaughtering the sand people, etc. There's quite a bit of dark stuff in there. It's not entirely dark yet, but then again, why should it have been? This was merely the setup for the fall of the Republic after all, not the fal itself.
     
  11. ThePhilistineCritic

    ThePhilistineCritic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2020
    I’m pretty sure that Steven Spielberg still would’ve had a great career without George Lucas’s help. The real question is whether George Lucas would’ve had any post-Star Wars hits without the help of Steven Spielberg.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  12. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  13. Emperor McClane

    Emperor McClane Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2019
    I have a hard time rating the movies, favorites depends on my mood. That can change in trilogies and between trilogies.
    And I don't see the point dismissing TMP in favor of AotC or visa versa. For me both are underrated in terms of Fan reaction to it. The tone is different, but it makes total sense. In TPM it is still some Kind of more innocent times, Naboo is an innocent and beautiful planet. Tatooin gives me the same feeling as in the OT, in both films. Corusant is a mega city, full of criminals, sin ect. In AotC the shadow of the dark side becomes bigger until it reaches RotS, which is the darkest of the PT. It is not only the story, it is filmed that way. TPM is quite bright, AoTC gets more dark, with still bright lights and colors changing to dark and visa versa. RotS mostly dark, dimmed colors.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  14. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    TMP = The Master Phantom? :p
     
    Emperor McClane likes this.
  15. RaiseTheFlag

    RaiseTheFlag Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2020
    I think AOTC is mainly rated lower for the romance and because the Count Dooku duel isn’t as good as the Darth Maul one
     
  16. Emperor McClane

    Emperor McClane Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2019
    Lol, yes. You don't know that one? :D
     
  17. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Must be a fan edit.... [face_rofl]
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    The use of "post-Star Wars hits" is doing an awful lot of work here as a qualifier.
     
  19. ThePhilistineCritic

    ThePhilistineCritic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Just tell me how many he’s had without Spielberg. Surely, it can’t be that difficult.
     
  20. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Why does that matter? GL's Star Wars movies are what they are because of him. He came up with the stories, he wrote drafts and screenplays, he chose his collaborators, he chose which of said collaborators' ideas would be used, he had the final say on everything.
    It started with him and it ended with him. That's the reality of it.
     
  21. ThePhilistineCritic

    ThePhilistineCritic Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Well, it unfortunately didn’t end with him, but I actually agree with all that.

    I just consider Lucas’s career trajectory to be closer to, say, the Wachowskis than to someone like Spielberg. They both had a relatively low budget film that brought them attention and acclaim (American Graffiti and Bound) followed it up with a massive game changer (Star Wars and The Matrix), but then never quite matched that level of success ever again. It’s just that Lucas was able to hold on a bit longer because Spielberg helped him on his follow-up to Star Wars (Indiana Jones).
     
  22. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    My point is that it doesn't matter. Star Wars alone is a big enough achievement to stack up against everything Spielberg's ever done. And I don't say that to diminish Spielberg. I'm saying they're comparable figures regardless of Spielberg's much more prolific (and consistently good even if not always exceptional) output. I know that's controversial in some quarters. But hey, some people think Spielberg's a hack, too. I don't care, I think they're both great.

    And if you're going to bring Indiana Jones into it, that's something that could never have been as great as it was without Lucas, in a way that you can't remotely say about people like Gary Kurtz when it comes to Star Wars. Which, again, is the point.

    To compare Lucas to the Wachowskis is laughable. I love The Matrix, it's obviously had a huge cultural impact in its own right--but it's no Star Wars. Not even close. Come on. You can't compare Lucas to creators whose success came in large part from being influenced by Lucas himself, while having less impact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
    Erkan12 and Sith Lord 2015 like this.
  23. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    It was Lucas who came up with the idea for Raiders of the Lost Ark and presented it to Spielberg (his friend since film school days) while they were vacationing in Hawaii.
    And, of course, they were both hugely famous and successful filmmakers by that point in time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, and if you read the Raiders story conference transcript with Lucas, Spielberg, and Kasdan, it's actually Lucas who has the bulk of the good ideas. It's obvious he had a really clear understanding of the character and was a major influence in determining the direction of the series.

    Then there's stuff like Spielberg not wanting to use the Holy Grail as a MacGuffin for The Last Crusade, which a more cynical person might use to unduly criticize Spielberg (à la Lucas's trepidation over the "I know" line in Empire), but which I would argue is a case of Spielberg having a perfectly understandable view that in hindsight turned out to be misguided, and which we can thank Lucas for changing his mind.

    The point is, Lucas was a vital ingredient in the Indiana Jones formula. I should think that would be a convincing point in his favor rather than ammunition to hammer home his post-Star Wars irrelevance in the absence of Spielberg.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  25. Thena

    Thena Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Exactly, having come up with two of the most popular movie franchises in film history would be plenty to brag about for almost anyone, except Lucas is too modest for that, imho
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.