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CT Why freeze Luke?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth_Nabb, Jul 3, 2021.

  1. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 25, 2003
    I always figured they wanted to freeze Luke because of how powerful he was and his ability to use the Force. By freezing him, Vader could ensure Luke doesn't escape and/or use the Force against him while he's in the delivery process. Also, I suspected Vader would've liked to present Luke to Palpatine in a sort of fancy way perhaps-and wrapped up in a nice bow-or in this case block of carbonite-would be the best way to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
  2. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    I always assumed that freezing people had been done before.
    1. The line “This facility is crude, but it should be adequate to freeze Skywalker fit his journey to the Emperor” suggests it. How else would Vader think the facility was adequate?
    2. Han is temporarily blind; Leia explains that this is just “hibernation sickness” and raises his eyesight will return. How would Leia know this stuff, unless it’s been done a sufficient amount of times before?
    So I assume the facility is just crude.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
  3. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    I agree. And the way Lando says "You put him in there, you might kill him" say to me that Lando understood what Vader was attempting, even if he was unsure that his facility was able to do it safely.
     
  4. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    I think its one of the coolest and simplest ideas in the entire saga. I can still remember seeing it for the first time and feeling scared as a kid, because the way its presented makes out that its a really dangerous procedure that could kill one of the best characters in the films. A genius idea and it was great to see it back in Mandalorian.
     
  5. paradigmes

    paradigmes Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 9, 2021
    I agree. There is something terrifying about whole sequence. The set and lighting especially is amazing, and the design of the carbonite block is so cool.
     
  6. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    Just for the higher chance of actually capturing Luke alive. It's been three years since he's found out Luke is his son, so I wouldn't be surprised if Vader is somewhat desperate at this point and doesn't want to take chances. So how best to insure Luke won't escape with his Rebel friends once again? Oh look, this place has a freezing chamber...

    I'm not so sure Vader would've delivered a frozen Luke straight to Palpatine though.
     
  7. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    Yeah, he was probably tired of chasing him. He wanted to lock him in that carbonite and deliver him to his castle. If he did manage to freeze him, Vader might not inform Palpatine that he has Luke. He would take him to his castle on Mustafar, or his castle on Vjun, and unfreeze him in order to reveal that he was his father and try to turn him to the dark side. If Luke was captured, Vader might actually have an easier time doing that. That said, I can't imagine Luke completely turning to the dark side. He may do so only partially because he's a captive. And Luke might go along with it for a bit before trying to escape. Of course, that would be a bad situation, since she and Lando would have to find both Han and Luke. At least they knew where Boba Fett was taking Han. Finding Luke would be harder. I imagine Vader's residences are top secret.
     
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  8. BlackRanger

    BlackRanger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 14, 2018
    I figure Vader's would probably have to be hellish in some way. Like a lava planet, or an ice planet, or a planet full of acid rain, or even a planet with blood-red water. Or maybe even a place that seems like Heaven to be counterintuitive.
     
  9. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I'm gonna be having some nightmares.
     
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  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    That Vader would freeze Luke and then keep him.
    That has problems. Vader made his intention to hand Luke over to the Emperor very clear.
    If he freezes Luke but keeps him, some of the imperial officers might tell Palpatine about that and that could be bad.

    Also, in the film, when Vader pushes Luke down into the freezing chamber, he says "All too easy.." sounding a bit disappointed.
    That Luke would be taken that easily.
    I think a Luke that would be taken so quickly and be frozen with ease, that Luke is too weak. Not one Vader can use to make himself the master but also one that he would not fear Palpatine would replace him with.
    So he could hand him over to Palpatine and that Luke could be a servant but not one that could replace Vader.

    But Luke gets out and Vader seems pleased, Luke has more to offer and now he steps up the pressure.
    He hammers Luke, pushes him. He has Luke down, Luke fights on, gets a quick hit and Vader stops playing and ends the fight.
    Now he sees that Luke is strong, strong enough for him to use. So he lays it all out, the offer to rule, tells Luke the truth.
    Had Luke gone with him there, then Vader might have tried to keep him hidden, to keep Palpatine off his back for him to get Luke onboard with deposing of Palpatine and set themselves up as rulers. It has flaws, how would he fool the other imperials?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  11. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    I think at this point in ESB, Vader does want to test Luke to see what he can do, but he already knows Luke has the potential to be his apprentice. He already has that planned for Luke, and that plan doesn't depend on whether Luke gets frozen or not. Vader's going easy on Luke in their fight; he already knows that Luke needs more training and he intends to train him to be useful.

    As for how to avoid delivering a frozen-Luke to the Emperor, there are probably lots of scenarios that could work. He and Luke were the only ones in the carbon-freeze chamber, so if, say, Vader had him shipped off to some hidden location and reported to the Emperor that Skywalker escaped or died, it's not like anyone else would be able to confirm or deny Luke's whereabouts. I'm sure Vader would have his ways to keep it secret.
     
  12. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Again, when Vader pushed Luke down into the freezer, he complained, "All too easy.."
    So I think if Luke proved weak than Vader might react differently than a Luke that proved capable.

    Also, getting a frozen Luke out will be considerably harder, the slab is big, Vader might be able to lift it with the Force but getting it to his ship without anyone seeing it is iffy.
    A Luke that accepts Vader offer, far easier. Ex, he could have Luke put on a stormtrooper uniform and get him onboard that way.

    And could Vader lie to Palpatine without Palpatine sensing it?

    The situation is interesting and also a bit tricky, if we go with the rule of two, then Vader handing over Luke to the Emperor will be signing his own death warrant as if Luke turns, Vader or Palpatine must die.
    Then either, Vader hands over a Luke that he sees is weak and nowhere strong enough to replace him at the emperors side for a good while. Or he has to work fast, get Luke strong enough to be able to help him kill Palpatine.
    But if Palpatine gets wind that is what Vader is doing, then he could declare Vader and Luke enemies to the empire and have them shot on sight. Vader and Luke are strong but can they fight through the Imperial army to get to Palpatine?

    If there is no rule of two and Luke can be turned and work alongside the other two, then Vader can hand him over with not much worry. And Palpatine might not be so quick to suspect that Vader has Luke in secret.

    So I think that Vader was indeed testing Luke but if Luke proved of little use and was able to be frozen with ease, then Vader might not see him as useful to any plan to get rid of the emperor.
    The longer Vader can push Luke, the more useful Luke would be to him.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  13. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    ^That seems like a lot of assumptions. And I don't read Vader's "All too easy" line as disappointment, at least not to the point of "He fell into the freezing pit, that alone means he's too weak and can't be useful after all". I don't see how that's the best indicator of Luke's potential. Again, Vader already knows Luke has the potential, he's been searching for him and tracking him down all this time, but he also knows he's more or less a Force noob and needs more training. With more training, Luke can get strong enough to help get rid of Palpatine.

    Could Palpatine sense if Luke was alive if Vader claimed he was dead? We don't know. He said he didn't sense Luke's presence in RotJ when Vader did, so that's something. We don't really know the extent of Palpatine's knowledge or Vader's plans, or what they would've done in different circumstances, but there are certainly many possibilities to toss around.
     
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  14. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I don't think it is any assumption when you consider Vader's next line;
    So Vader makes a comment that Luke was beaten too easy and then says that perhaps then he is not as strong as the emperor thought. Remember, this is the same emperor that warned Vader that Luke could destroy them. That makes Luke into a big deal. But a big deal that is beaten this easily?

    No I think Vader was disappointed. Either by what he himself thought or based on what the Emperor said, Luke was supposed to be strong, not fully trained no but not a total noob either.
    Consider, Vader and Palpatine could both sense him half a galaxy away and that he was causing "a great disturbance in the Force."
    So I think that Vader expected more. And when he got more, he was pleased.

    Again, Palpatine sensed Luke from across the galaxy in ESB and he caused Force disturbances.
    I think it very likely that Palpatine would be able to sense if Luke was dead or not. He can't pinpoint where he is but his existence, that he can sense.

    What Vader planned, he knew of Luke before the start of ESB and I think he knew or was confident that Luke was his son. What he says in the SE I see as him trying a weak lie on Palpatine.
    He was after him, both as someone he could use but also, it was his son, that still mattered.
    How did he know? Most likely from imperial spies or rebel propaganda, Luke was the hero that had destroyed the DS after all.
    Did Palpatine know? I think it very likely, esp if the knowledge came from spies, if Vader knows about it so would Palpatine.
    Had they talked before ESB? Again I think it likely. Vader would have needed some order or clearance from the emperor to take these ships and go after the rebels. The rebels are a priority target, esp after the loss of the DS. Did they talk about Luke? Unknown but I think it likely. If the name, "Skywalker" was known among the imperials, which ESB suggest that it is since Vader uses it in front of other officers and they don't react to it. Then Vader and Palpatine would talk about that.

    But at this point, Luke isn't causing disturbances yet, Luke is just a rebel, a rebel with a famous name but not much hint of being a strong Force user. Yes Vader did sense the Force in Luke at the DS battle, so there is that. The disturbances in ESB changes the picture.
    Esp since Vader and possibly Palpatine only count Obi-Wan, not Yoda. So they figure that Luke is alone, he has no one to train him. But despite that Luke is suddenly growing a lot stronger in ESB.
    If Luke can do that all on his own, with no teacher, then that is very impressive.
    So now Luke is not just an enemy to the Empire but an enemy to the Sith, Vader and Palpatine, and thus more urgent to deal with.

    Did Vader ever plan to hand Luke over? Unclear, with the rule of two, as I've said, he would likely be signing his death warrant with that. Was Vader suggesting to turn Luke an open declaration of war with Palpatine?
    If no rule of two, could Luke be turned and serve under Vader and Palpatine? Unknown.
    It is possible that Palpatine saying that Luke could destroy them made Vader more keen to use Luke to get rid of Palpatine. Or he was already planning that and this made him more eager.
    Maybe he wanted to test Luke, to see if Luke really was as strong as this and could be used against the Emperor. Thus the situation in ESB.
    If Vader just wanted to capture Luke, he could lure him into a room, pump it full of gas and have Luke be knocked out. Then freeze him and hand him over.
    But I think Vader wants to test Luke to see how strong he is but also if there is something there he can use to turn him. He first tries fear and then switches to get Luke angry, he says as much in the film.

    What did Palaptine plan? Again unknown. Did he think Vader would try and turn Luke on his own?
    Seems risky. Did he know that Vader would try and fail?
    Did he not consider that at the time and he figured Vader too beaten down and subservient?
    If Vader kills Luke, all good, an enemy removed. If Vader captures Luke and hands him over, all good there too. If Vader takes Luke but does not turn him over? Palpatine I think has eyes and ears on the SSD. If he got wind of that then he would likely act.
    Or maybe he is being a very altruistic Sith and wants to see if Vader can pull it off. If Vader can turn Luke and together kill him. Then he can die contently, safe in knowing that the Sith order is in "good" hands.
    Silly? Consider the sith that preceded Palpatine, they were all apparently content with waiting for the right time. They could hold off in trying to grab power and wait for someone down the line to do it.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  15. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    I think it was to ensure Luke doesn't escape, once Lando told him of the risks, he made a test run with Solo.

    Luke was a disturbance in the force, Palpatine originally wanted to kill him, but it looks like Vader convinced him otherwise. I don't think if Vader killed Luke, it would be that big of a deal, in ROTJ Palpatine would have killed Luke.
     
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  16. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I visited a fortified church (it’s basically a castle) in Romania with a tomb chamber where Bishops were buried in the walls. These Bishops were essential feudal kings.

    The markers on the walls looked like blocks of carbonite trapping the bishops inside with life sized full body recreations of the bishops in a rectangular frame. They even had details on the side reminiscent of the controls. I think this is where if not the idea came from then the design for Carbonite came from.

    I know concept art for Vader’s castle created for The Empire Strikes Back were based on the same style of fortified church. I suspect a concept designer either visited this church or another like it, or reference photos of these tombs were included in other reference images of the churches.
     
  17. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 4, 1998
    @Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid , those are known as tomb effigies and can be found in many old churches. Every effigy figure I've ever seen has looked very saintly and peaceful, but other than that, yes, there is definitely a resemblance to carbonite. Effigy - Wikipedia
     
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  18. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Now I want to found the Church of Darth Vader.
     
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  19. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    It is pretty self explanatory. Vader explains it in one line. Luke is not going willingly, so he will freeze him until he gets to the Emperor. He doesn't want to kill Luke.
     
  20. Saga_Symphony

    Saga_Symphony Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2010
    On a different note, the parallels are kind of interesting. Luke almost gets "frozen" twice in the same film. Vader burned in fire after turning to the dark side; both are seen in bacta as a result of their near-death experiences. And afterwards, Vader wants to "freeze" Luke in order to turn him to the dark side.
     
  21. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
    these particular ones in Romania looked trapped. half submerged in the stone. Part of is that they weren’t totally three dimensional. More like a relief. They lacked the sleeping Saint look.

    I’ll find some images and post links later.
     
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  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
  23. Django Fett

    Django Fett Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 7, 2012
    Vader was a massive Vanilla Ice fan...

    Ice, ice, baby
     
  24. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    Great insight as now I'm thinking we never did get much concept art of the carbonite block? I will check into this to see.
     
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  25. May_The_Force_Be_With_You

    May_The_Force_Be_With_You Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 21, 2014
    I honestly figured it's because Luke could use the Force and it an easier way to keep him incapacitated.