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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why hide Luke?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by NakkyGraphics, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. NakkyGraphics

    NakkyGraphics Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Why did Obi Wan have to hide Luke? It would have been better if Luke had grown up with Obi Wan and trained with him. Luke would have been training since he was a kid and would have been way stronger. Was there a legitimate reason why Luke OR EVEN Leia (she could have also been trained and there would have been two Jedi Skywalkers :). ) had to be seperated and hidden?
     
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  2. PHIERY

    PHIERY Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    It was wrong for Luke and Leia to be stolen and hidden from their rightful father in the first place.
     
  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You mean Anakin the known child killer? I assume you're joking.

    As for Obi-Wan raising Luke that would be irresponsible & dangerous. He was among the most wanted men by the Empire. Safer to give Luke to a family & keep a distant watch on him. Also they wanted to give both twins to families so they hopefully live a normal happy life. Not raised by one guy on his own & in hiding.
     
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  4. HaloWithStyle

    HaloWithStyle Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 11, 2015
    And it was sad that Luke had to live in a shthole while Leia lived a life of luxury on Alderan.
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Bullseying womprats sounds fun though.

    ...But yeah, Luke got the short straw. Imagine if it had've been reversed. Luke, Prince of Alderaan!

    Also kind of dark to think that in taking each twin both sets of foster parents were signing their own death warrant. For 20 years later anyway.
     
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  6. jimmycrank

    jimmycrank Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    mixture of Obi-Wan is (as someone pointed out) a very wanted Individual and B) He probably thought a child needs to be brought up in loving family.
     
  7. PHIERY

    PHIERY Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    It was Anakin when he was a Jedi who murdered the very young Tusken Raider (children?). As Vader, he legally eliminated the Jedi, (including some 'Younglings') because they had committed an act of treason in which permission was given to defeat the Jedi. It was their association to the Jedi that got the Younglings killed.
    Yoda and Obi-Wan, who were wanted fugitive criminals, absolutely had no right to steal the twins and hide them from their rightful father.
    The Jedi and the Rebellion would have saved themselves over 20 years of pain. Look what happens when Vader knows he has offspring.

    Btw i'm serious.
     
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  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    :rolleyes:

    The Younglings didn't commit treason.

    "Treason" wasn't actually Mace's planned action, his decision didn't even come from the Jedi Council, let alone the whole Order. Arresting Palpatine is less treasonous than anything Palpatine was doing. Trying to kill Palpatine I can see as treason, but looking legitimately at Mace's motives (preserving the Republic and Jedi Order) it is a stretch. And he was acting on his own authority in the spur of the moment, it wasn't a premeditated or Council approved thing. To say the children deserved to be wiped out is pretty sad.
     
  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    PHIERY

    Fact is also that the cause of the situation that made them wanted criminals, wasn't a natural one but engineered from the start by Palpatine who deliberated thew the galaxy into war. That should raise a couple of eyebrows, IMHO. ;)

    Obi-Wan hiding Luke as the apparent offspring of Beru and Owen Lars makes sense to me. First, it's the place Vader would have expected the least, second, each time he stopped in orbit to commemorate his mother's death, he would have probably attributed the tremble in the Force and this particular location to his grief about his mother's loss.

    The Luke-Kenobi encounter in ANH makes it abundantly clear that both knew each other. No telling how often Kenobi actually was in Luke's vicinity and possibly manipulated situations for Luke to deal with, that could have qualified as early stages of training.

    The only thing that doesn't make real sense, IMHO, is here:

    YODA: Pregnant, she must still appear. Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

    OBI-WAN: We must take them somewhere the Sith will not sense their presence.

    YODA: Split up, they should be.

    BAIL ORGANA: My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked of adopting a baby girl. She will be loved with us.

    OBI-WAN: And what of the boy?

    YODA: To Tatooine. To his family, send him.

    OBI-WAN: I will take the child and watch over him. Master Yoda, do you think Anakin's twins will be able to defeat Darth Sidious?

    YODA: Strong the Force runs, in the Skywalker line. Hope, we can . . . Done, it is. Until the time is right, disappear we will.


    If the actual idea is to separate the two in case one is found, it doesn't seem smart to let the other party (Bail Organa) know.

    In case Leia had been found, I'm certain that Bail Organa would have been "questioned" until he would have also revealed the boy and his location.
     
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  10. PHIERY

    PHIERY Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Mace is 2nd in command Yeah? With Yoda absent, this makes Mace numero uno. He is in a position where his actions completely involve the Jedi Order. Besides, he takes 3 other responsible Jedi Masters with him. They were not rogue Jedi, they represented the Jedi Order. They are experienced enough to realise what their actions would amount to if they failed. It was premeditated, Mace was looking to remove the chancellor long before he found out he was a Sith. As soon as Mace hears from another Jedi, that Palps is a Sith Lord (hearsay, no actual proof), Mace rounds up his Posse to go get them a Sith Lord. I'll say again, Mace had no proof, therefore no legal right to arrest then attempt to kill a Chancellor of the Galactic republic. All Mace had to do was gather up information and evidence then submit all before the Senate. Instead, Mace's true intentions were to kill the Sith once and for all, which brings genocide into play now.

    As for the Younglings...
    From a young age, they are brainwashed and conditioned to not have natural feelings such as love and attachments as well as other feelings which are all paramount to the growth and development of most beings. Then they are given a lethal weapon and are trained to kill the enemy. All the Sith were doing were protecting the Republic/Empire and themselves against these highly dangerous (would be Jedi) Younglings, who are directly linked to a group who have committed treason.
    The Jedi take full responsibility for the Younglings.
     
  11. MoonFyre

    MoonFyre Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Maybe Obi-wan thought it would be the best for Luke to grow up as a normal, ordinary person without the expectations and burden of force looming over him.
     
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  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Training either of them from birth would've been too dangerous, as the Sith would likely have sensed it. Remember that they did sense the disturbance in the Force caused by Luke's progress in TESB.
    Waiting until they were old and experienced enough to deal with danger was wise - as was keeping them separated, since one would remain hidden if the other was discovered.

    BTW: Legal =/= Right
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No. Why would it be better to leave the hope of the galaxy with the most wanted person in the galaxy?
     
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  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    "It wasn't the first time, Anakin. Remember what you told me about your mother, and the sandpeople?"

    Even Palpatine saw this as a dark side act. It's Anakin's first step down a slippery slope. If Palpatine's intentions were good why would he encourage the Tusken massacre? The only direct indication we have on the Jedi's stance on this is Qui-Gon shouting "Anakin... No!"

    I'm not sure of your stance on Anakin killing Dooku, but it is the first time he killed a human out of hate, and this time not while enraged. He is beginning to sell his soul.


    I agree that Mace represented the Jedi Order when Anakin turns, but more symbolically.
    Mace acting on his impulse, and trying to kill his sworn enemy Sidious in the heat of the moment, is the inverse of Luke selflessly throwing away his saber and refusing to kill at the end of ROTJ.
    So I'm with you on that. If another Jedi had been there Anakin was less likely to turn, so Imo Palpatine had it be Mace on purpose. Mace is Anakin's superior, and his actions look particularly hypocritical to Anakin after all the strict discipline Anakin has been struggling with himself.
    I love all the role reversals at play in the finished six films. Anakin looking from supposed father-figure to supposed father-figure (Mace and Palpatine) and making a decision, then in ROTJ he is confronted with another similar yet opposite dilemma, yet this time he is the father.


    Could you elaborate here? Not sure what you are getting at. You mean if they failed they knew the Jedi Order was doomed?


    Arrested if he doesn't give up his powers, yes. But there was no premeditated assassination attempt. After three years of war and finding out it was all Palpatine's fault, who when confronted with an arrest kills three Jedi and attempts to kill him, Mace got pissed off. I don't argue it wasn't against the "Jedi way" as Anakin claimed. That line is in the film twice for a reason after all. (Yeah I know, not really Anakin's true motivation if he was being completely honest, but it is representative of the intended grey theme).
    Again, Mace attempted arrest twice before he lost his temper.


    Oh come on, they knew...
    - The Sith Master was behind the war. If this 13 years worth of treason doesn't deserve punishment, why does the Jedi's one arguably treasonous act mean they deserve death?
    - That the Chancellor was mysteriously shrouded (which they hoped to God just meant the Sith was in Palpatine's circle, not actually Palpatine himself).
    - That Palpatine has been consolidating power and interfering in every aspect of the Republic, particularly "Jedi affairs". The Jedi sided with the Republic by choice to have a greater reach to HELP people. It is really not a corrupt politician's business, let alone one hellbent on wiping them all out. Which you must agree Palpatine had been personally planning for a long time before the Jedi were directly involved. Not just after they committed treason.
    - That Anakin was the closest person to Palpatine (granted partly their fault for assigning him to spy, which Anakin is really doing for both sides). It is his mission to find out the truth about Palpatine, and because of Palpatine sneakily purposely revealing it, it is a successful mission. Anakin's report confirmed their "greatest fears". Anakin is a particularly powerful force-sensitive and the Chancellor's friend. Mace wouldn't expect him to say it unless he was absolutely clear. "Are you sure?" "Absolutely."
    Besides, we know Palpatine is guilty, so what is the real difference at the end of the day? I'm leftist, but the Chancellor is pure evil, irredeemable. This isn't the real world, he is representative of the devil in Star Wars.

    Granted, we haven't been shown much of the Jedi investigation onscreen, but it seems implied Palpatine admitting to being a Sith Lord fills in a missing link in a chain of evidence against him.


    No right to kill maybe. Arrest of a war criminal I would think is legally within Jedi jurisdiction. They aren't monks, they have a job to do. I agree he should have just called Palpatine's bluff and arrested him when Palpatine appears to give up though. If Palpatine had gone quietly the first two times they tried to arrest him who knows what would have happened. Mace couldn't risk this so he took the law into his own hands.


    I agree. But he was desperately running out of time. Hence the quicker (morally questionable) solution of killing Palpatine after the legitimate arrest attempts.


    He was provoked into it, he didn't come there to kill him. Palpatine was counting on a negative reaction from Mace.
    I'm unsure, but would you call killing the last Sith genocide? It wasn't based solely on his religion, although it arguably played a big part in Mace's decision (The Jedi and the Sith both seem to stop at no less than the other Order's elimination in the films).
    Mace was just appointing himself judge, jury, and executioner.
    I think Palpatine's mass Jedi killing was more genocidal really. The younglings died for being Jedi and nothing else. They were currently innocent.


    Debatable. Their way had worked for centuries. If it wasn't for Sidious the galaxy would probably have remained a relatively peaceful place. The Jedi's intentions are more noble than the Sith's. The Sith are only in it for themselves, it is kind of like Satanism. Jedi will give up luxuries and comforts just to help others.
    Mace made a mistake. He is an individual, not every Jedi. His death is symbolically the death of the old Jedi Order. His symbolic place is to push Anakin away from the Jedi where Luke draws Vader back.


    They are trained as protectors of the innocent. The Sith will kill anyone who stands in the way of Galactic domination.

    "A Jedi must use the force for knowledge and defence. Never for attack."
    This of course is in an ideal world, as we sometimes see Jedi breaking this creed. Just another layer to the moral greyness of the films Imo.


    Sure, if you like order so much you can put up with complete oppression; no citizen's influence - a powerless, voiceless and eventually dissolved Senate. No privacy or freedom of speech. Obey or die attitude to all beings in the galaxy. Murder (think Owen and Beru), and genocide (Alderaan). The people under the Empire are slaves.


    Again, one person. Mace isn't the leader of the Order, and the Jedi were apprehensive about even arresting the Chancellor before they discovered he was behind the war.


    Maybe. They would obviously feel guilty about taking the younglings from their families and getting them killed, yes. But Palpatine is at fault, he set up everything just so the Jedi would have no choice but to act illegally. They were compromised the moment they sided with a corrupt Republic and fought in a war. Again, because of Palpatine.
     
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  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    PHIERY wrote

    As for the Younglings...
    From a young age, they are brainwashed and conditioned to not have natural feelings such as love and attachments as well as other feelings which are all paramount to the growth and development of most beings. Then they are given a lethal weapon and are trained to kill the enemy. All the Sith were doing were protecting the Republic/Empire and themselves against these highly dangerous (would be Jedi) Younglings, who are directly linked to a group who have committed treason.
    The Jedi take full responsibility for the Younglings.

    This is a test to see whether it's possible to brainwash people to believe that the Jedi children ("Younglings") were evil and had it coming, right? [face_hypnotized]
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Given that the word "younglings" for "children" predates the prequels considerably - cropping up in various fantasy novels - I can't see any reason for "youngling" not to be synonymous with "child".
     
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  17. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    To be honest I was not aware of that and that probably applied for general audiences, too.

    Thus, for "us", the term "youngling" sounded like a technicality designed to obfuscate the fact that we were looking at / dealing with small children / kids.
     
  18. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    I can't believe I'm agreeing with Darth Downunder on a thread that is not the social thread, but the last place in the galaxy those kids should have been placed is with their father. That's just... abusive is what that is. Anakin lost those kids when he became Vader because there is no way that those kids wouldn't have ended up dead or worse.

    Also there was never an indication that the Tuskens are human. Just because Anakin says "the women and the children" doesn't make it so. The Tuskens are vicious, cruel beasts. Palpatine played on Anakin's guilt about that after he killed Dooku as part of his decade-long manipulation of Anakin. He's not a reliable narrator.

    I think it was in the movie or the novelization that Obi-Wan suggested keeping the kids with them and training them to be Jedi, and Yoda shot him down because they needed to do things differently if they would overcome the Sith.
     
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  19. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    I was wondering what would happen If Anakin knew that Padme was alive (I mean alive after he choked her). Maybe he would find some meaning in his life at that point. This is the ultimate reason that they should be hidden of the Emperor, because he would want them dead. If there are children he couldn't control Vader.
    In ROTS nobody said that Anakin is danger to them, the Emperor is the danger. Obi Wan couldn't raise the baby alone. To raise a baby is not the same as to teach an youngling. Luke needed someone to take care of him. Tattoine was the best option: far away from all the events of the falling of the Republic, we even don't know if the Lars family knows the true about the "death" of Anakin, maybe they think that Anakin died in the "mutiny" of the Jedi. Vader himself had no reason to go to this forgotten place, so, is done. Obi Wan didn't just let the baby there, he stayed there to look after him, to protect him. He failed to train him but maybe is because of uncle Owen’s motives.
     
  20. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 21, 2015

    Impossible. You agree with DD outside the social thread? The world is ending...
     
  21. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 14, 2016
    Someone finally said something so far out there that we had to join forces. It's like Ahsoka and Ventress, really.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Humans can be vicious and cruel. The Tuskens are aliens that are capable of being as evil as humans - but that doesn't make them "beasts" - just "cruel aliens".
     
  23. Sepra

    Sepra Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2016
    I think for me it's the part where they're referred to animals in AOTC by Cliegg Lars. Also, people treat them as animals in ANH.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    He also calls them "mindless" - a clear example of him letting his prejudices get in the way of common sense. In the novelization, it's clear that they outsmarted the settlers, when they laid traps for them.


    I'm not sure what's meant by that - Ben actually points out their cunning tactics as proof that it wasn't them who attacked the Jawas:

    "Sand people always ride single file - to hide their numbers".
     
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  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan was a wanted fugitive and couldn't raise and train Luke. So he watched from afar.

    First off, they're not brainwashed. They're no more brainwashed then you and I are, since our parents taught us how to behave and how to deal with our feelings. Second, the Jedi train their members to love unconditionally, but to not form attachments. Which means that they are taught to control their fear and anger, and to let go of it. Third, the Sith do the same thing the Jedi do. Palpatine and Maul were both raised from birth to be Sith and taught to have anger and hate.

    That's a misrepresentation. They're taught to kill as a last resort and the only enemy of the Jedi is the Sith.

    The Sith are treasonous as well, since they've subverted the Republic two thousand years ago and enslaved the galaxy until the Jedi and the Republic rightfully kicked their candy asses. When Mace changes his mind from arresting to killing Palpatine, he is only doing so because of what the Sith did before and Palpatine even admits he's doing it again. Only this time he's using the system whereas his predecessors didn't.