PT Why hide Luke?

I'll just play along: Everybody gave Palpatine and the Empire a fair chance and opportunity to show they were better in ruling the Galaxy than the Republic before them. But after 20 years, general consensus became they actually sucked at doing that but wouldn't relinquish power.

 

Propagating myths seems to be your specialty. The stormtroopers on the Death Star had received orders to shoot but to miss - in order to facilitate the escape of the princess and her rescuers, because Vader wanted them to leave and guide them to the Rebels' hidden base.

According to your Kenobi conspiracy theory what where the sandtroopers doing all that time? Practise precision firing on the Sandpeople?

 

That was hilarious, you are crazy.

You didn't respond to my criticisms...

 

I don't know what they're seeing, but it ain't a smile. He's covering up, but not because he's about to laugh.

Because those are the lines that he wanted in the film and Hayden delivered them the way he wanted them to.[/quote]

Obi-wan couldn't have killed them, because he was with Luke the whole time. He doesn't have a speeder and none of Tatooine's native beasts are faster than a land speeder. Also, Obi-wan's a Jedi and they don't kill innocents. Obi-wan even ditched his comlink a long time ago, which is why we don't see him using one on the Death Star.

The Stormtroopers didn't believe the Lars, that's why they killed them. They believed and quite correctly, that the plans were found or any message therein. Then they sent Luke into Mos Eisley to deliver them to the Alliance. That's why the Stormtroopers are in Mos Eisley looking for any human who has a pair of droids and why Obi-wan had to first lie, then use a mind trick.

The Stormtroopers who hit Rebel Troops aboard the Tantive IV and hit Leia's shoulder seemed to do quite well. The fact that the Stormtroopers don't know that the Tuskens hide their numbers by traveling single file is why Obi-wan says that it was Imperials and no one else.

Artoo was never his property. He belonged to the Royal House of Naboo, then Senator Amidala, then General Skywalker, then the Royal House of Organa and finally Commander Skywalker. Everything else is the silliest thing I've seen since the "Artoo is secretly a spy for Palpatine" theory.

 

That's different because these are Jedi, the very people who freed Anakin from slavery and has raised and trained him to be one of them. Padme is horrified because she cannot believe that her own husband would betray the organization that trusted him and saved his life especially after she sees what he has become on Mustafar. With the Tuskens, Padme has seen what they are like in the Phantom Menace when they were shooting at Anakin and the podracers while in Attack of the Clones, she knows what they did to Anakin's mom and her rescuers (including Cliegg Lars). It's hard for Padme to be horrified by Anakin killing the Tuskens because she would've done the same thing for her family, which she did in TPM when she took back her home planet from the Trade Federation (who were her version of the Tuskens).

 

Remember, i'm ok with Anakin punishing the Younglings for their involvement and association with the Jedi. On the other hand, Anakin may have tried to help them and things turned bad. We don't actually see what happened.

What I see on the holo recording is Anakin fighting a Jedi Master who specialises in lightsaber combat, and 2 Padawans. No Clones in the footage - self defence.
What's important is, just as many Clones died when they were doing their job protecting the Republic.

I think it happened while Luke and C3PO were looking for Artoo. Why did Artoo run off in the first place? Remember, Old Ben had nearly 20 years to plan this. He easily could have acquired an extremely fast transport to get in and get out, then just happen to stumble upon Luke and the droids in the wastelands (Btw, how did Ben even know they were even there?)
Call me crazy all you like . But you know there is validity to what i'm saying.

Anakins fall? You make it sound like Anakin choosing to be a Sith is a bad thing. Anyways, I believe it was the Jedi's fault as to why Anakin chose to be a Sith. The Jedi did nothing to free Shmi - the mother (Virgin Mary) of the chosen one.
As for Qui-Gon, he was too visionary and advanced to be held back by the Jedi. I think if he didn't die, he would have left the Jedi Order Just like Dooku did. I guess we'll never know.

Why do you think he has lost a lot of his humanity? He not only lost the love of his life. He lost a child (twins) too. What did he have left to live for after losing everything? In the eyes of Obi-Wan, Yoda and Bail Organa, the worst thing they could've done was have Vader believe he lost everything. To the Jedi and the rebellion, wasn't defeating Palps Empire the most important thing? So why didn't someone tell Vader he has twin offspring. Padme told them there was still good in him. If the twins were given to their rightful father in the first place, the Jedi and the rebellion may have won more than 20 years earlier. Because there is no way Anakin/Vader allows Palps to kill the twins. Oh well, these are the consequences when someone steals and hides another persons children.

 

Initially, Obi-Wan and Yoda believe Vader is dead.

Once they know he's alive - they have many reasons not to take the children away from their adoptive parents and return the children to him.

 

PHIERY wrote

On the other hand, Anakin may have tried to help them and things turned bad.

Indeed, watching The Clone Wars I have difficulties imaging a lightsaber's use as anything much else than to use it as a cutter to get things open. Possible that Anakin used his lightsaber to cut a hole into the tower's window which enabled these "Younglings" to escape. That could work, thanks!

 

A few things I'd like to address:

Obi-Wan's "Laughing"
I may be going blind, because when I saw that scene, I didn't see Ewan trying desperately not to laugh, but Obi-Wan covering his mouth in horror. Still, even if it were the context is that Obi-Wan is supposed to be feeling horror regardless of Ewan breaking out into a spontaneous laughing fit.

Anakin and the Children
While we can debate whether or not he actually killed the kids in the Council chambers, do we forget the moment where Yoda and Obi-Wan were examining the bodies of a group of children? "Killed not by Clones, this Padawan was...but by a lightsaber he was." So unless Sidious appeared to help Anakin in the slaughter, or Anakin chucked his saber over to a Clone Trooper, I think it's safe to say that Anakin did kill at least a few Younglings.

The Ownership of R2-D2
Obi-Wan never owned the droid. R2 was always the property of Padme Amidala, then the Organas. If we're talking about the scene where Luke asks him if the droid belonged to him, remember that this is before Obi-Wan's big reveal. He's playing an act, like he's a kooky old hermit who just happened to be there when the Tuskens clocked Luke to lala land.

Anakin Choosing to be a Sith
Um, yes, yes it was his entire choice. Even if the Jedi didn't treat him well, the choice was still his and his alone. No one pointed a blaster at Anakin's head and forced him to join on pain of death.

 

Other way around. The Padawans were defending themselves from the Clonetroopers.

Artoo ran off because he was going to find Obi-wan. Obi-wan's not going to kill anyone just to get Luke to follow him. As to how he found Luke, he had a vision of Luke in jeopardy and went looking for him. Also, Obi-wan's broke. He cannot afford a speeder.

Yes, because murdering people and enforcing a tyranny is a great thing.

He turned on them because he wanted power to stop people from dying and wanted to take away people's freedoms.

No, he wouldn't. That's why he became a ghost and Dooku lost his head.

Vader is believed to be dead. So as far as they know, the only reason to hide the children is to hide them from Palpatine. And as we saw in TESB and Lucas has confirmed, Vader is only interested in Luke because he wants to rule the galaxy and overthrow Palpatine. It isn't until their duel, that Vader starts to feel conflicted and it stems from his choking Padme, which along with Luke's decision not to kill him and choose the dark side, that he decides to become a good man again.

 

This sounds more like your POV, as a rebellion sympathiser. Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

You're right, those stormtroopers must have had those same orders throughout the entire OT. That's why they can't hit a target.

I don't know what you mean about the Sandpeople?

 

PHIERY do you have a poster of Tarkin on your bedroom wall by any chance?

 

PHIERY wrote

You're right, those stormtroopers must have had those same orders throughout the entire OT. That's why they can't hit a target.

Not sure what you're trying to imply. Bespin stormtroopers had no specific orders how to deal with Leia and company which Vader essentially wanted alive (he was incommunicado at that time dealing with Luke) and the Endor stormtrooper scored a precise hit on Leia, wounding a Rebel VIP which him (and his buddy) thought to be able to capture alive for later information retrieval.

 

But what gives you the impression that this is what Lucas was intending to portray. I can't honestly think Lucas sees Anakin killing the younglings (which I think it is obvious that Anakin/Vader did) as anything but Anakin selfishly selling his soul. It is in Lucas's own quotes after all, Anakin is simply greedy and his fear driven actions require him to self-justify his killing of the Jedi in the Temple when we know really they hadn't truly wronged him or anyone else in any way.

Self-defence? I don't follow on your logic that no visible clones implies that. Cin Drallig is just defending the Temple from Anakin and the Clones, who are probably unconditionally massacring any Jedi they can find.

I agree the Clones are a big grey area, I could get behind the argument that they are just following orders as they were designed to do. Personally though, I kind of always associated them with the Empire even in AOTC, there is an omen in the Jedi compromising their morals in using a slave army, and something just always felt off to me about the Clone army generally. Of course, if you have no problem with the Empire I could see they didn't feel a tad creepy for you like they did to me.

He's had twenty years to wait to train Luke at any cost, yes. But murdering Luke's foster parents just to give Luke freedom and motivation to join him is neither characteristic of Obi-Wan nor logically sound a possibility with the timing of their death. I don't understand how you can argue Obi-Wan as more likely to mercilessly kill innocents than the Empire with what we are shown onscreen. The Empire has no problem in walking over anyone to achieve their arguably suspect ends.

Sooo, Anakin made the right decision and the music playing during Order 66 didn't indicate the tragedy in the Jedi lives lost? And it is just a coincidence that his actions actually bring about Padme's death, the exact opposite of what he set out to do, and leave him charred on the Mustafar lavabank, and symbolically imprisoned in the suit? Lucas has stated what happens on Mustafar is to show Anakin got punished for what he did. Plus Lucas calls Mustafar "hell" and this is very fitting when you see what happens to the Separatist leaders and Vader there for aiding Palpatine, not to mention Padme's doomed fate and Obi-Wan having to dismember his "brother" and watch him burn.

They pushed him away, sure, but Anakin sold his family out essentially, they didn't deserve to be genocidally wiped out.

Agreed, but it is just a movie, it needed to happen like this so Anakin can tragically lose his mother and start down the dark path.
Besides, Shmi was freed and married between TPM and AOTC, so she didn't have it too bad until the end.

Fair speculation, I have argued that if the Jedi didn't train Anakin, Qui-Gon was going to go against them and train him independently.

I'm sympathetic about how things turned out for him, but this is largely on Palpatine and Anakin himself.

Agreed, Luke's virtuous nature in ROTJ prove that his children were the key to saving him.
But what did you expect Yoda and Obi-Wan to do? I think they thought at first that Vader died as others have said. Regardless, I wouldn't feel comfortable handing children over to the Sith.

I would agree even Vader as we see him at the end of ROTS and early in the OT would want the kids alive. But the Empire wouldn't fall, without something drastic Vader would likely just try to use them to take control of the galaxy from The Emperor, the Empire would be as strong as ever.

 

Am serious I sure.

We only see one Padawan/Youngling killed by the Clones. That's straight after the Clones politely suggest that Bail Organa leave, because it isn't safe. Then out of nowhere a Padawan goes berserk and murders at least 6 Clone troopers before they eventually neutralise the threat.

Owen Lars had serious concern over Ben's mental health ("crazy old man") and did not want Luke to be around him. Owen was rightfully suspect of Ben. A lot of bad things must have happened between them during those 19 years.
"Obi-Wan's broke"??? Let's see.... 17000 is the offer to Han, 2000 of that is from the sale of the speeder (I think). So, Ben has 15000 stashed away. If Ben is broke, how does he find 15000? It's looking more and more likely he did kill the Lars and took their money. Yeah?
Ben didn't need a speeder. He most likely went to Mos Eisley and used Jedi mind tricks to steal a much faster flight vehicle.

That's a POV that I don't agree with.

Anakin was left traumatised over the Jedi doing nothing to free his mother from slavery. Which resulted in him wanting to save the people he loves. Which leads me to...
The Jedi took away Anakins freedoms. He was not allowed love, marry or have offspring. No attachments at all. These are the freedoms of life that continue to create life. Without them we are doomed.

I'm not quite sure of the comparisons between one becoming "a ghost" and the other "lost his head"? Are you saying what happened to both of them respectively was the paths they had both chosen?

 

After watching TFA again today, it would seem that in the end, Luke finally realized his true purpose in life, one he shared from early childhood, a lesson he apparently learnt too well: be hidden. xD

 

He said to Solo "2,000 now and 15(,000) when we reach Alderaan". According to the radio drama Ben had little to no money and actually used a Jedi mind trick on the car dealer to get a good deal enabling them to pay Solo his 2,000. When he arrived to save Luke he was on foot, no speeder or riding animal. Do you suggest he made Force jumps to arrive at Lars Homestead and murder the Lars?

 

Yeah the 15000 to pay Han was to come from the Rebellion on Alderaan.

 

What i'm saying is Ben went to Mos Eisley and used Jedi mind tricks and stole an aircraft to fly to the homestead and kill the Lars. Then fly to the area Luke and the droids were. He knew roughly where they would be, because he programmed Artoo to escape the night before. The whole theory is air-tight. No holes.

Also some people are saying Artoo never belonged to Obi-Wan. Artoo says he is the property Obi-Wan. Sooo

 

Artoo saying he is "the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi" was a reaction to his secret mission programmed by Leia. He can't give away the Rebellion's secrets to Luke, so he claims he belongs to Obi-Wan, the rightful audience to the message. Obi-Wan accurately remarks that he never owned Artoo.

 

Yo seem to be forgetting that Owen and Beru have a kitchen talk, just before Luke and Threepio find Artoo. According to your theory Ben must have flown to Lars Homestead, killed them and laid fire and be back moments later to rescue Luke from the sandpeople.

 

"Bzzzt! Wrong!"



As you can see, the Clonetroopers are firing on the Padawans. It is not in self-defense on the part of the Clonetroopers.

Uh, he's not being literal. He's trying to dissuade Luke from hanging around Obi-wan, not because he thought he was crazy, but because he didn't want Luke getting involved in the war. He knows Obi-wan isn't crazy, but he's trying to protect Luke.

Obi-wan said that they can pay upfront only two thousand, but the rest would come from the House of Organa. Luke sells his speeder, but doesn't get the full two thousand. Obi-wan says it will be enough, which is an assurance that Han will honor his end of the bargain.

They never took that away from him. He could have left the Jedi Order at any time if it was an issue. And as Lucas said, the Jedi are not celibate. Anakin's problem is that he wanted more. As to Shmi, Anakin himself said that he would come back and free her one day. He never expected the Jedi to do it.

Essentially. Qui-gon had long ago rejected the dark side, after acknowledging that he had the potential to be evil. He believed in the Jedi Order, even if he didn't always agree with the Council's decisions. Because of his open mindedness, Qui-gon had been visited by Serenity who took him on a quest to see if he was worthy of retaining his identity upon his death. Once he passed, Qui-gon was able to become one with the Force when he died. Dooku had chosen the dark path and never truly denied the darkness within himself. He believed in power and not knowledge. He believed that the Sith path was the only path to fixing the problems of both the Republic and the Jedi Order. He was wrong.

 

If Lucas wanted to portray Anakin killed helpless Younglings, then he would have. Because he didn't, there is no proof and it is deliberately left open to interpretation.

I'm just going by what I see in the hologram - Cin Drallig and some Padawans ganging up on Anakin. Remember 4 Jedi masters lead by Windu, caused all this by committing treason and attempted Genocide (i'll get to later).
I agree with you saying the Jedi compromising their morals in using a slave army. The Jedi did many things wrong that are conveniently forgotten by other people.

Obi-Wan must have already realised the consequences of stealing the twins from the chosen one. Automatically Kenobi knew he was putting Owen and Beru lives gravely at risk by looking after the twins. There is a reason as to why Owen was incredibly suspicious of Kenobi and calls him a crazy old man. Serious **** must have happened between the two over the 20 years. Perhaps Owen and Beru's allegiance was to the Empire. Anyway, Kenobi had the most to benefit with the Lars out of the picture.
If Lucas wanted everyone to believe the stormtroopers killed them, he would have filmed it.

Obi-Wan is just as responsible for Padme's death. The force choke didn't kill her. She lost the will to live because Obi-Wan told her Anakin killed Younglings. Besides, Anakin only forced choked her because he thought she had betrayed him by bringing Obi-Wan to kill him. It was Obi-Wan who inflamed the whole situation.
Do you notice how Obi-Wan leaves his dismembered brother to burn to death on the banks of the lava river? Where is the Jedi compassion? pffft. If he can do that to his own brother, he would have no problem doing the same to the Lars. (I only just thought of that ).

It was the Jedi who attempted the genocide of the Sith. It is the Jedi gameplan to destroy the Sith, who are a religious and cultural group. It wasn't until this attempted genocide against the Sith, that the Sith defeated the Jedi in self defence. Also, if 2 Sith (one being the chosen one) are victorious against thousands of Jedi, then it is the will of the force as their ally.

The others are making it up to suit their own opinion. Yoda and Obi-Wan must have immediately known Vader had survived.

Well, Vader told Padme he can defeat Palps and they can rule the galaxy together. That would be interesting, Empress Padme.

 

Maybe, but it makes way more sense than Obi-Wan and Yoda killing them. They weren't even on Coruscant during Order 66. When was this supposed to have happened? What happened to the younglings during/after the Temple raid then? We see that Sidious's orders are for Anakin and the Clones to kill all Jedi without "hesitation or mercy". And Obi-Wan doesn't even know it was Anakin until he watches the video. Yoda seems to already suspect. The video footage isn't of the younglings Anakin confronts onscreen I admit, but unless Lucas is using some new revolutionary method of film-making in how information reaches the audience, we are led to believe Anakin killed Jedi younglings and Obi-Wan and Yoda's reactions to this are sincere.
Lastly, when Padme states "He said you turned to the dark side... that you killed younglings!" Anakin just looks down and dodges the question with "Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me."

Anakin looks like he is holding his own to me. It looks like Cin Drallig is trying to defend the younglings.

I agree, but I can't see it as an intentionally sinister move on the Jedi's part. They want what is best for the galaxy. Even Mace Windu only tries to kill Palpatine because Palpatine is so good at purposely pushing his buttons. According to Lucas, Mace was initially going to arrest Palpatine but the lightning pissed him off. A hypocritically emotion-based decision, yeah, but not premeditated.

Perhaps. Although Owen and Beru taking in Luke, while dangerous, ultimately had no influence on how they died.

Yeah, I got the impression they were fairly complacent and didn't like to stir up trouble.

We have to agree to disagree, I have argued that Obi-Wan couldn't possibly have done this already. It is contradicted by what is shown onscreen (as Lt. Hija pointed out, they are shown alive in the scene before Luke is attacked by Tuskens.)
I think will of the force or destiny led the droids to Luke, which started the chain reaction that meant Luke was away when Owen and Beru are killed.

If Anakin hadn't turned I think Padme would still have lived, hence the irony in Anakin turning to save her.

Obi-Wan appearing on Mustafar the way he did was stupid, I agree. Some implied arrogance there. Why didn't he just tell Anakin that Padme didn't know he was there? But then the events of the OT would likely never happen.

I'm undecided on Obi-Wan's motivation in not helping Anakin after Anakin was dismembered.
The final moments of the duel were definitely a harsh end to their encounter, but Anakin knew what the risk was when he attempted to finish of Obi-Wan with that jump, he forced Obi-Wan's hand.
Obi-Wan leaving him to burn I'm less certain about though. Conflicting sources say that either he couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin, or that he wasn't feeling merciful. Either way he seems to leave Vader's fate to the will of the force and gets out of there before the Emperor arrives.

However there is also this...

Obi-Wan unable to watch Anakin burn

Luke looking away from Owen and Beru's charred bodies

You can't honestly believe the Sith's gameplan wasn't also eradicating the Jedi from the start. The first thing we see Sidious do in Episode One is order Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, who are there to negotiate, killed. Eliminating the Jedi generally was one of the Sith's main motivations from long before the era in which we are introduced to the GFFA in Episode One. I wouldn't say the Jedi didn't act the same about the Sith, however.

MACE: The oppression of the Sith will never return. You have lost.
PALPATINE: No, no, no... you will die!

I'm uncertain, but I think it has been confirmed Obi-Wan thought Vader died on Mustafar.

This was Vader's wish, yes, but Padme probably would have fled him and tried to hide with the twins. I can't see her joining him.