CT Why is Return Of The Jedi considered the weakest of the originals?

I am a big fan of the rough and revised draft (there's so much Teebo in it ), but for some reason, I thought Wookiees were dropped right before it. This is even better.

Thanks for making my argument even stronger and teaching me something new.

 

The Wookiee home world, which at the time was Yavin 4, was only in the first draft of ANH. Wookieepedia does mention the Wookiees as slaves and claims that it Endor was originally Kashyyyk and the Wookiees were there in place of the Ewoks, but I don't know how true that is. There is no annotation as to where it came from. But based on everything that I know, at least, that isn't the case. That it was already Ewoks and Endor by 1980, when Lucas first started putting together ROTJ.

 

I was thinking yesterday that ROTJ may be a better conclusion to ROTS than it is to ESB, if that makes sense.

It was originally a satisfying conclusion to ANH/ESB, but stylistically (and just generally) it is a little disappointing compared to ESB (for me).
After ROTS on the other hand, it ties so many running themes together. It was always a very emotional entry, and that isn't diminished. I love the sense of push/pull between the climax of each trilogy, and for me it is more dramatic now after watching five other films. "It's a trap!" , "It is too late for me son." , and "Young fool... only now at the end do you understand." are great significant moments when you have been on the whole journey. Maybe that was already present without the PT, but for a fan it is good that they seemed to be considering stuff like this when making the new movies.

 

I see all of the hate for the overly long Jabba sequence, but to me, that's what made it better! I loved the Jabba scenes in the palace and on the sail barge!

 

The best part of ROTJ was definitely Anakin/Vader's redemption. Vader is obviously a psychological mess until that decision. He's conflicted about Luke, but I interpret it as being worse than most make it out to be. He feels pride for how powerful Luke has become, he doubts that he made the right choice by ceasing to be a Jedi, he is somewhat jealous of Luke, he's afraid of Sidious, he's wondering if he should let Luke kill him to take his place, and he's wondering if he can still overthrow Sidious with Luke's help. The guy is a psychological mess until he makes up his mind and chooses the right thing in the end. Vader could be called an antivillain, a villain, an antihero, or a Byronic hero. Lucas, Kasdan, Kershner, Marquand, and EU authors have crafted a multifaceted, terrifying, tragic, and very human character. Vader's most interesting trait is his redemption, of course.

Obviously, Mark Hamill and Ian McDiarmid were standouts in ROTJ. Hamill portrays a wiser, more mature Luke. He's still young and optimistic, but he sees some things that even the great Jedi, Yoda and Obi-Wan, cannot see in Vader. It takes a special person to see the good in someone who has done so many terrible things. Sometimes, it is possible to see the potential for change even within a dark, lost soul. As to McDiarmid, he didn't have much to work with. From what he said in the ROTJ commentary released in 2011, Lucas didn't tell him much at all about Sidious Palpatine. But McDiarmid managed to portray someone who was obviously a very sadistic, clever monster with some subtlety and human traits. McDiarmid has a great university degree, and he's a brilliant Shakespearean actor and director.

Also, there are many other great things about ROTJ that other people have named. I don't think the Ewoks are a problem. Lucas intended it to sort of represent how guerrilla forces, or insurgents, can defeat a superpower. He was influenced by what he observed and read about during the 1960s and 1970s. The only problem, for me, in ROTJ is how the Jabba sequence is structured. I have no problem with its length or that the event is in there. But I understand the criticism that it makes less sense for Lando, the droids, Leia and Chewie, and Luke to all arrive separately. Had they arrived together, they might have been able to take Jabba. However, not everyone always plans things brilliantly or well in real life. And, remember, Leia and Luke are 24. Lando and Han aren't that much older than them, and they are not ingenious military leaders. R2 is probably the eldest of the original main characters (possibly older than both Vader and Sidious), but he's not a planner or schemer. Sometimes, people do act like our heroes in ROTJ did at the beginning and make a few mistakes. But Luke and Leia showed how powerful they were by the Sarlacc. Leia used her strength and the Force to kill Jabba, and Luke defeated most of Jabba's thugs with his brain and the Force.

Well, that's my take. I love ROTJ as much as TESB. I doubt that will ever change.

 

I doubt R2 is the eldest; he looked shiny and new in TPM, so he'd be much younger than Chewie.

 

Can't remember if I already responded to this, but just in case I didn't: Even though it has some great elements/scenes, ROTJ is my least favorite SW film. The Ewoks (though cute, especially if you're a kid) really ruined the film for me. I understand the point Lucas was trying to make re: an indigenous population successfully defeating a stronger military force (i.e., the Vietnam war), but felt it could have been presented much better. I.e., they didn't have to be teddy bears

That being said, I liked a lot about the film:

The entire Jabba the Hutt rescue sequence - i.e. the original '83 version (not the 1997-on versions) was perfect - it kind of reminded me of the old Mission: Impossible TV series. Very well done.

Also really enjoyed the Death Star II space battle - amazing. IMHO this is the best space battle in the SW Saga so far.

 

ROTJ is my favourite OT film, the Ewok thing never bothered me, though I would have loved to have seen wookies instead!

 

I think it's because ANH and TESB set a very strong benchmark. ANH came onto the scene and revolutionised science fiction. TESB increased the stakes and had possibly the greatest twist of all time. ROTJ had a hard act to follow. Though it's still my second favourite Star Wars film in the franchise.

 

As Christopher Nolan asked, "How many great third films can you name?" Or something like that. This is one I would name. That's my bias.

 

That's such a great point. ROTJ has such a high at the end of it. What is there not to love in this movie? Ewoks didn't bother me, and I liked the juxtaposition of the primitive culture bringing down the Empire. And the final confrontation and end of the arc for Luke and Vader was just amazing.

 

The following things could've made Return of the Jedi stronger:

1. Han Solo dies after being rescued by the rebels from Jabba's palace.
2. Luke is captured by the Empire as the trap set at Jabba's palace was designed to capture him and taken to Imperial City, the capital of the Empire.
3. Leia and Chewbacca are sent to a slave planet filled with Wookies orbiting Imperial City which is being forced to build the Emperor's Star Destroyer.
4. Leia and Chewbacca lead a slave revolt on the sanctuary moon orbiting Imperial City which causes Imperial forces to be distracted while the Rebel fleet makes an attack on Imperial City.
5. Luke is taken to the Emperor's palace to be converted there.
6. The Rebel fleet destroys the Emperor's ship and makes a fatal strike on his palace as well which is assumed to kill Palpatine.
7. Luke escapes the revolt led inside of the Imperial palace to celebrate with the Rebellion.

 

For once I actually agree with you.

 

Lando might also die flying the Millennium Falcon through the explosion of the Second Death Star.

 

For me: Ewoks.

(and sorry, but Harrison seemed totally uninterested in it)

 

I'll put it this way. I have introduced Star Wars to 5 people. Very different personalities. All 5 have said Return of the Jedi is their favorite. It is also my favorite. For me, the beating heart of Star Wars and true conclusion of the saga is within that movie.

 

ROTJ is my favorite of the OT and the film I credit for turning me into a hardcore SW fan. The final showdown with Vader, Sidious and Luke is one of my personal favorite parts of the entire saga. And I love the Ewoks!
I suppose that after all that transpired in ESB and it is a wonderful film of course, that expectations were not met by some with ROTJ as the follow-up.

Agreed!

 

I find ROTJ the most straight up entertaining of the CT.

 

Han's sarcasm in the film is priceless.

"How we doin'?"
"Same as always."
"That bad, huh?"

"Who says they didn't? But I ain't crazy. You're the respectable one, remember?"

"Hey...it's me!"

 

Can't we all get along and enjoy the flashing lights and big booms?

 

I personally love the ROTJ best out of the entire saga, although the ending does seem a little cut short.

I disagree. I think that the Ewoks having the 'home-moon' advantage makes it actually very plausible. In fact, it is possible to crush an armoured vehicle with two large tree trunks. Just ask the Mythbusters.
Besides, who could resist those adorable teddy bear faces? Not even a Sith could have fired at those Ewoks in seriousness. They're nothing like the Tuscan raiders.

 

That's part of the point. The Ewoks were not taken seriously. To the Empire's detriment.

 

Seeing Kurtz' interview before 1980 how the emperor was only going to appear in episode 9 and "the other" was going to be someone else, I wish ROTJ was altogether just another chapter like ESB and that TFA would be episode 10 now of a new saga. Maybe some of the original non-sister female "other" carried on to Zahn's Mara Jade,and Filoni's "Ahsoka". ROTJ does feel astray. How I would rate them: 1) ANH 2) ESB 3) Rogue1 4) TFA 5,6) ROTS-ROTJ, etc.

 

The problem with ROTJ is the pacing as the movies just comes to a grinding halt throughout and it loses momentum.

ANH & ESB have their quiet moments but the pacing is perfect as the movie moves for 2 hours. TFA is inferior to ANH & ESB in terms of quality, but the pacing is top notch and has the spirit of those movies.

ROTJ goes to Jabba's Palace and plods along, then movie gains steam with sail barge fight, Luke/Yoda, Rebels base, and the Endor chase. Then comes to a grinding halt for a good 15 minutes at the Ewoks village. Then the last half hour is great.

RoTJ is a very uneven movie with great moments and bad moments, very reminiscent to the PT movies.

 

I think you hit a good point about ROTJ being "uneven" JediChip but I would say that's actually why I think its issues are different to the PT or TFA.

For me ROTJ at its core is an excellent follow up to ESB. The Jabba section manages to be both very atmospheric/fun also does a good job of introducing the new more confident Luke and showing the different characters attachment to Han. It never really feels tacked on for me because it keeps that character focus which the films have always been about. Luke back on Degobah is I think very effective as well and generally I think the build to the climax of his story is every bit as good or better than anything in ESB. The space battle as well for me is just an amazing bit of action(still my favourite action scene/section ever) that fits into the other two stories nicely without overwhelming them.

Where the film does fall down a bit is on Endor, personally I don't think the Ewoks are a disaster as they do IMHO have some charm to them and more importantly I think the film avoids having them badly damage the gravitas of the main plot, the characters in the film acknowledge them as rather silly rather than trying to normalise so damaging the credibility of the whole setting. That said there not ideal but I think more importantly Han/Leia's story stalls a bit, its a nice enough romantic ending but its not on the level of what had come before.

For me though the PT and TFA whilst they might be somewhat uneven in quality have weaknesses right at their cores when it comes to so many issues, acting, scripting, character arcs, the gravitas of the world in general, etc. Perhaps that makes there individuals flaws easier for people to look past? theres nothing in any of those films for me that's anywhere close to the best of ROTJ though.

Honestly as well I suspect a big factor is that ROTJ has become a bit of a tool people use to help prop up other films, there commited to disliking and belittling it to prop up TFA or ROTS, or indeed something non SW.