Saga Why is the light side bad? (Balance in the Force)

Again, AOTC states that Anakin believes that a more direct hand is needed in dealing with galactic politics. He supports the idea of a dictatorship, which he knows Padme is against. He knows that if she found out what he really did and why, she would never go along with it. That's why he doesn't tell her that he killed a group of Younglings in the Temple. When he joins Palpatine, he justifies his actions as the Jedi were taking over and if they had killed Palpatine, they would go after the Senate and that it could be why and how she dies. So he convinces himself that he was doing it for her and to end all the conflict of the galaxy. She is his excuse in doing what he does. Lucas even states that he does this for her, because he thinks it is the only way to get what he wants.

Note that later on when they meet on Mustafar, Anakin tells her that he can overthrow Palpatine and that they can rule together. That they can make the Empire into what they want it to be, which is based on their past conversations about politics, dating back to the meadow picnic on Naboo.

 

Yep. Anakin shows signs of being politically naive. Doesn't mean he's evil.

Plus it's no secret. The fact that Anakin credulously kills younglings because he agrees with Palpatine that the Jedi will kill them and/or the Jedi will continue to wage war does not make him evil or have evil intent at any point prior to that.

Anakin is no manipulator with the exception of the identity of his wife, he tells Yoda everything. Not a great move for someone who is ready to kill all Jedi to get what he wants.

Anakin disappoints us, but he isn't a schemer who has been secretly contemptuous of everything his lover believes in andis just using his love for her as an excuse to show her just how much he is opposed to her values. That makes absolutely no sense.

The set up for Anakin turning to evil like he does can only truly identified in about half of ROTS. Everything that comes before it. Even killing the sand people is done in a fit of pique. He clearly didn't enjoy it and he cares enough to confess to Padme at least. Yoda senses it. If this and his conversation with Padme about politics are signifiers of the intent and potential for such evil as comes later then it's a wonder didn't sense it as well.

 

I didn't say he was evil yet.

I didn't say that either. I said that he is greedy and selfish, which doesn't make him evil. Just misguided.

I didn't say he was a manipulator. I said that his motives are purely selfish and self-serving.

I never said that. You're either misreading, or trying to twist the whole argument beyond what it is.

Uh, he didn't like that he killed, but he also feels vindicated that he did it. He committed an evil act and is only saved by the fact that he didn't turn to the dark side then, but he began his journey because he did that. His actions in AOTC were the very things that the Council, Yoda in particular, worried about happening. That he would become emotionally compromised and make terrible choices.

 

If you go back a couple of posts, darklighter suggested that Anakin had ulterior motives to Padme throughout their relationship and that he was using her as an excuse. He was against what she stood for but used love for her as an excuse to pursue his own opposing agenda. That's where you came in with Anakin naively endorsing dictatorship (if it works), as if he was consciously using Padme from the beginning - because he's totally selfish, greedy etc.

It's a bit strange to lend support someone's position like that but then disavow moments later.

 

That's not what I said. What I actually said is that Anakin's main motivation to turn into the darkside may have been about saving Padme at first, but as he go further into the dark path, he's no longer doing it for her but for himself, to get more power and to rule the galaxy because that's what the darkside does to a person, saving Padme is now a lie he tells himself to continue what he's doing that's why Padme says can't follow him on Mustafar, that she doesn't recognize him anymore. Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, he knows he's going against everything Padme stood for that's why we see tears on his face but he feels he reached past the point of no return, that there's no going back for him after what he did to mace Windu. Anakin endorsing dictatorship does not make him evil as the Jedi Order being complacent and/or arrogant does not make them evil. Him seeking to stop people he loves from death is selfish, which leads him to make bad decisions not only for himself but for the galaxy at large. He wanted to be a Jedi but he also wanted Padme to be his wife, basically he wanted to have his cake and eat it too instead of simply choosing to leave the Jedi order which thanks to Ahsoka's untold story, we know it's possible for a former Jedi to still have a working relationship with the Jedi order despite their differences. Padme, who I consider to be the most rational person of this relationship did warn that a secret marriage would be living a lie and destroying their lives, which it did. The cracks in their relationship is even more obvious when Rush Clovis, Padme's former love interest is in the picture.

 

Right, which Lucas also addressed. His motives may have been pure at the start, but they were also tainted by his own greed and the further along he goes, the more his motives start to change.

 

What Yoda is referring to is the Sith philosophy of actively embracing those emotions in a totally unrestrained way. As opposed to the Jedi philosophy of acknowledging and accepting the existence of those emotions, but not letting them control you--in other words, the process of Jungian assimilation of the shadow. Yoda confronts, acknowledges, and assimilates his dark side (or shadow) in the final arc of TCW. Anakin does the same thing at the end of ROTJ.

As Lucas put it in his notes during the development of TESB:

“Ben will explain to Luke that he will gather all these powers, but he can’t use them for evil or he will succumb to the dark side of the Force. If you use it for evil, it will start using you. It is a force for good, but the more you become addicted to it, the more it controls you and the side that controls you is the bad side. The side that you can control is the good side. The good side is a passive side and the bad side is an aggressive side. Two sides to the Force: One is aggressive, one is passive in relationship to things.” (In one of his notes, Lucas wrote, “The mood of a warrior calls at once for control and abandon; the Force commands you and obeys you—unity of opposites.”)

The Jedi are warriors, and as such they must necessarily make some use of the aggressive side of the Force. But they must be conscientious about maintaining a proper balance between this side of the Force, which seeks to control you, and the good side of the Force, which allows you to control it. The benevolent warrior philosophy of the Jedi has always been one of balance, though it was simplified a bit for the films.

 

Ah, so that's what that quote is. I have a summary version that I've been using for years. I wasn't sure if there was a specific quote or not.

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can’t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

--Star Wars-The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.

 

Anger, aggression and hatred are prone to controlling people's actions in the absence of any philosophy promoting them. I do not believe that Yoda was referring specifically to responding to and endorsing the Sith approval of these methods. He was referring to the danger of assuming the end justifies the means when those means are hatred, anger aggression.

It does not require the conscious adoption of Sith philosophy in order to begin a path towards the dark side. Anakin is not seduced by Sith philosophy. He is taken in by promises of managing his fears in a way that the Jedi do not seem prepared to support him in, and is manipulated into taking spuriously pragmatic measures to ensure that he is successful.

Although it has to be said, he doesn't need much manipulation. He is just extremely suggestible at a time when a convergence of circumstances (manipulated by Sidious) permits him to equate suddenly turning against everything he'd obediently fought to protect up till that point as the only way to relieve the anxieties that have plagued him since he witnessed his mother's death.

 

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack, meaning that a Jedi must never use the Force aggressively, as that would be using the dark side.

IOW, Force pushing someone in order to inflict harm is strictly forbidden, while performing the same action merely to keep someone at arm's length (see Obi-Wan vs Grievous) seems to be OK.

 

It took Palpatine 13 years to turn Anakin to the darkside so it wasn't that easy for him.

 

So you're saying that Palpatine started turning Anakin to the dark side at the conclusion of The Phantom Menace. How does he do that exactly? At what point during AOTC even does Palpatine seduce Anakin with the idea of using hate, anger, aggression?

Anakin is told by the Jedi that he is the chosen one. That he is important.

Likewise Palpatine acknowledges Anakin's destiny to be someone of significance. That's not turning to the dark-side, that's just echoing the Jedi's prophesied importance of Anakin, the chosen one

 

Chancellor Palaptine: "And you, young Skywalker; we will watch your career with great interest." And by the time of AOTC Anakin saw him as a father figure who had no bad intention in mind and who could be trusted. His objective is to divide Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi order by gaining his trust without revealing to him his true identity of course.

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The point is that Anakin doesn't believe in the Chosen One prophecy, he believe it's a "myth"

 

Yes, his objective is to turn him to the dark side. But if his methods and overtures are sympathetic with or at least not the antithesis of the council's then you cannot call it seduction by the dark side. The objective and the method are two different things until the method takes on a form that is expressly for the purpose of giving in to hate, acting on aggression and all the other things that define the Sith and the dark side of the force. Seeing someone as a father figure is not the path to the darkside unless that figure's intent and actions are obviously evil.

If Anakin's attitude towards his vaulted status and destiny was to dismiss or disbelieve it then that notion was conveyed in a subtle, almost invisible way in the movies. The movies, to me, presented to proclaimed pre-destination of Anakin to be a major problem in his development. It also doesn't make sense that Anakin would sense his own greater potential while rejecting the prophesy that it is consistent with and which many of his peers agree with.


I find that a lot of conversation on the pros and cons of either side's methods, doctrines, actions and practices are stifled by invoking the virtues or otherwise of their objectives. Those are two different arguments. Yes the Jedi are right to oppose the Sith. But right is not might. It's no use having good intentions if you are not prepared to fight with anything other than intentions. Intentions do not win you anything. This applies to everyone.


I hate to perhaps spoil a film for someone who hasn't seen it but I also relish recommending this particular movie at any opportunity. Hopefully you may have already seen and iked it in which case you have my compliments. Of course this shouldn't be applied literally to Star Wars since the dilemma presented here is a very real, historic one, while Star Wars is a fantasy where the rematch does come sooner than a hundred years later.

 

Deception and betrayal are the weapons of the Sith. Palpatine orchestrated the Clone Wars at least since before TPM, he convinced Padme to put a vote of non-confidence to chancellor Valorum so he can become chancellor himself. Then 10 years later, he the Clone Wars with him controlling both sides behind the scene without anyone noticing before it was too late, Dooku was another pawn in his plans to get Anakin to join him and when he cease to be useful to him, he discarded him thus turning Anakin further to the darkside by killing an unarmed (literally) man which is not the Jedi way. He's patient, I'll give you that.

 

Naturally, one should consider deception as a weapon when trying to overcome the enemy. Regardless of your intent. (Some martial arts, a concept that is embedded in the realisation of Jedi culture, are about deception as much as anything else.)

Didn't the fact that Palpatine was unarmed prompt Anakin, at least in part, to attempt to prevent the perceived iniquity of Windu putting the Sith Lord to death? It is only when Anakin believes he's past the point of no return, with the Jedi, that he appears suddenly to have no qualms about murdering unarmed people, not even combatants.

You could say that it's the Jedi's conception of the troubles that befall the Republic at the end ond that era is limited to black and white. Their doctrine only allows them to promote their own virtues unambiguously and reject and prohibit everything outwith that view Thereby preventing them from properly understanding and anticipating the process of their own downfall.

That does not mean that the Jedi should abandon their own values, or erase the lines between those with evil intent and themselves. There is risk involved but at least they are known risks.

 

He certainly does give up hope on himself ("It is too late for me, my son"), as does everyone else at some point. Even Luke finally gives up on his father when Vader threatens Leia, and attacks out of fear and anger (prodded by Palpatine's plan). It's Luke ability to pull back from the Dark Side, despite the promise of power it bestows, that demonstrates to Vader that faith in the Force is greater than any power the Force. Vader's need for power and self-protection were overwhelming his need to do the right thing. He never would have sacrificed himself for more power, which made him Palpatine's puppet. He finally realized that sacrificing himself for his son would release him from his self-imposed slavedom to Palpatine. Better to die for what is right, rather than live for what is wrong.

The Matrix used a similar idea....even the Oracle tells Neo he's not "The One", which was true...at that point in time. She comments:

ORACLE
Well, I better have a look at you.
Open your mouth. Say, 'ahh.'
She widens his eyes, checks his ears, then feels the
glands in his neck. She nods, then looks at his palms.

ORACLE
Okay, now I'm supposed to say,
'Hmmm, that's interesting but...'
Then you say --

NEO
But what?

ORACLE
But you already know what I'm
going to tell you.

NEO
I'm not the One.

ORACLE
Sorry, kid. You got the gift but
looks like you're waiting for
something.

NEO
What?

ORACLE
Your next life, maybe. Who knows?

That's how these things go.

Neo has to undergo a transformation before he can become The One (dying in the Matrix, in this case.) Vader also had to transform himself, in that he had to demonstrate what Yoda taught Luke:

YODA
Stopped they must be. On this
all depends. Only a fully trained
Jedi Knight with the Force as his
ally will conquer Vader and his
Emperor. If you end your training
now, if you choose the quick and
easy path, as Vader did, you will
become an agent of evil.

BEN
Patience.

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for

... yes!