CT Why is Vader not able to "feel" that Leia is his daughter?

i probably read too much into this...

i don't think that vader himself thought he had a special connection to leia, though i think that he does rather like leia. it's just that he is evil, so his "liking" someone is a rather dreadful thing (for that person). and he is certainly willing to kill people he likes, just as he is a killer and kills lots of people.

aside from liking leia i thought that vader knew that she was stronger in the force than the average person (though i'm not sure he ever realized just how strong, as i don't know if he even figured out who luke's twin sister was by the end of rotj).

i did think that vader's first preference was not to kill leia, but it hardly matters. he wasn't going to counteract tarkin's order to execute her even if he disagreed with it (he would have eventually seen to her death himself). and i think he would disagree with tarkin's order because then he can't find out from leia where the rebels are. so by the end he's managed to convince tarkin to let the princess go and track the ship so that he can still get what he wants out of this situation: finding the rebel base and destroying it. and it's worth noting that had they succeeded, leia would have died once the rebels were destroyed.

all that said, i think that there was this sort of undertoe in vader causing him to delay killing leia and steering him to find alternative means. he doesn't really want to kill leia, iow. and i think it's because there is some small sense of compassion coming from "anakin." but vader always overrides this, which is to say his actions can always be explained without needing the undertoe in the explanation.

for instance, i think that in esb vader always intended to take leia and chewie because he can use them against luke (to help in turning luke). he just didn't tell lando about this right away because he is aware of lando's misgivings, and is "altering the deal" gradually so lando can adjust a bit at a time. when lando doesn't accept an adjustment, vader applies a threat to make him do so. this reflects that vader understands people's wills and how to work with them, and has found the path of least resistance with lando. it snowballed anyway, as lando reached his limit, but it took him longer to reach his limit than it would have if vader had just been upfront from the beginning about ALL the awful things he was going to do and make lando complicit in.

however, the undertoe is still present. he likes the princess and would not mind having her in custody again. and that of course would end quite dreadfully for her.

eta: i think it makes perfect sense vader didn't "sense she was his daughter" in that she's not even using the force much... luke became a blip on the radar between eps iv and v i think (leia is not even on the radar). vader began an investigation. given that luke's last name is skywalker, i doubt it was that difficult. by episode v, luke is a "disturbance in the force" who the emperor has also sensed, and he's apparently also independently figured out the identity of the offending force user.

 

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't think Vader did a lot of killing for pleasure. He was dark and twisted, sure, but I also think he was also shrewd enough to minimize the amount of bloodshed under his watch. The one exception to this was likely Obi-Wan as he has harbored a 20 year vendetta since their battle on Mustafar. He probably viewed himself as an assassin (on Palpatine's orders) and as an executioner of subordinates who either failed or betrayed him. I do think he respected his Imperial officers for the most part (except those who sucked at their jobs like Ozzel) and in turn, commanded equal amounts of respect and fear from them.

And why he didn't realize Leia was his daughter until near the end of ROTJ... my guess is that while she was almost certainly Force-sensitive, she might not have as high a Midichlorian count as Luke or Anakin. Luke's likely rivaled his father's, but who knows how strong with the Force Leia was.

 

i don't think he did either (though killing does satisfy his rage--needing to take it out on someone). but he's a killer. like there's no way around that. it wasn't necessary to kill any of his officers at all. the most minor of mistakes = a failure. it angers him and he kills them for it. in the case of leia, she was guilty of treason and vader thinks people should die for that.

i don't think leia is "less powerful" potentially than luke in the slightest. she just wasn't interested in taking that path.

 

While I agree that executing officers was not the most efficient way of endearing himself to his men, he did seem to give them at least a little bit of leeway - he rarely killed his men upon their first offense. I do think that Vader was aware that he had a certain reputation to uphold, and he probably found that fear was the most effective tactic in keeping his men in line.

When he killed Ozzel, he did specifically say "you have failed me for the last time", indicating that he has made blunders in the past. He also gave Admiral Piett a stern reminder of what happens when he fails one too many times. When he Force-choked Needa to death we don't know for sure if it was his first mistake or his twentieth, but regardless it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

my only point is that vader kills people and he's killed a lot of people whether directly or through ordering it. that doesn't mean he is a sadist. it just means he's a killer. (but yes, he's an efficient killer.)

eta: i thought it probably was needa's first offense and vader killed him for coming to him to apologize instead of devoting himself to finding the falcon like vader wants everyone to be doing. he did however accept his apology.

i mean needa didn't even *try* to do his job. so he doesn't get the 3 strikes and you're out leniency. that's reserved for those who try.

 

Malthael wrote

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't think Vader did a lot of killing for pleasure.

I agree, that makes us three (at least ).

Here is a short scene from the first draft of ESB that provided more insight into his character (and made sense to me, something the makers of Clone Wars were totally oblivious to)

INTERPRETER
Lord Vader, the individual believes that this information is of considerable value to the Empire. It desires a reward…
VADER
Naturally. Whatever it requests. The Empire is gracious to its friends. Give me the coordinates. Or the name of the solar system. Anything.
...

VADER
(to interpreter)
Remove this unpleasant lump of protoplasm from my sight. Give it whatever its heart desires, if it has a heart…but see that it’s kept under lock and key until we’re sure it’s the information is accurate.

Regarding Needa it's difficult to say why he did execute him. Fact remains that the Avenger had already lost track of the Falcon earlier (when Solo outmaneuvered the ship) and - in a manner of speaking - Needa somewhat challenged Lord Vader when he put the security of his ship and crew over Vader's intent to capture the Falcon at all costs:​

​

NEEDA (in hologram)
... and that, Lord Vader, was the
last time they appeared in any of
our scopes. Considering the amount
of damage we've sustained, they
must have been destroyed.

VADER No, Captain, they're alive. I
want every ship available to
sweep the asteroid field until
they are found.​

​

​

 

I feel like he wasn't looking for her but once he does find out about her he does look for her, i've always thought Leia and Vaders relationship to be quite sad because Luke got a relationship with his father somewhat talking to him while Leia just had this memory of being tortured by her father.

 

ladygrey45

I'd like to believe that Leia and Vader had met before events of ANH and interacted with one another, at least she seems to know a lot about Vader.

And then, there is the dining salon on Cloud City where they probably talked with each other, too. Unfortunately, only the very first draft of the ESB conveys an idea what they might have talked about there (already in the dining salon they learn here that Vader is after Luke) :

193 INT DINING SALON – NIGHT
Everyone is at table, Darth Vader presiding at the head; he is neither eating nor drinking. Lando eats with a good appetite. The others Chewbacca sits quiet, not touching anything. Han and Leia have lost their appetites but both…and especially Han…are drinking wine. Looking at Lando and contemplating murder.
LANDO
You see, Han, I had no choice. I knew who the Princess was the moment you landed, I knew that the Empire wanted you both…and the Empire is important to me. I suppose that I really owe my comfortable existence here to the Empire, though I’m not a part of it, and I continue to trade with both sides. So I really had no choice.
HAN
I hope you were well paid. You know what’s going to happen to us.
CONTINUED
193 (cont.)
LANDO
Lord Vader assured me that nothing would happen to any of you.
LEIA
Ha! I’ve enjoyed Lord Vader’s hospitality before. What’s the matter, Lord Vader? Have you gone so far beyond humanity that you no longer need to eat, or drink?
DARTH VADER
I have had to forego those simple pleasures, like an along with many others; but there are compensations I survive. And you’re forgetting something, Princess. When we entertained you aboard the Death Star, you had information that we needed. Now you have nothing.
LEIA
Then…I don’t understand.
DARTH VADER
Luke Skywalker.
HAN
Luke!
LEIA
What about him? But I don’t know where he is…or even if he’s still alive.
DARTH VADER
He’s alive. And he’ll find you, because he loves you.
HAN
That’s ridiculous. He could search for….
DARTH VADER
He’ll find her. And until then, we wait. I would advise you against any rash moves. I’ve set a guard on the Falcon so there’s no escape that way. I shan’t lock your doors unless you make it necessary.
LEIA
It’s impossible. Luke hasn’t the faintest idea where we are. You must be out of your mind.
DARTH VADER
Then there’s no need to worry, is there?
193 (cont.)
LEIA
Anytime the Empire is around, I worry.
She rises and strides out, not excusing herself or looking back.
HAN
Guess I’ll go, too. The air’s bad in here. Coming, Chewie Chewbacca?
Chewie growls. They go out. Darth Vader looks after them. Lando glances at him uneasily, then goes on with his meal. But he too seems to have lost his Appetite.

 

Gawd no, its soooo on the nose. Reads like a scene from the prequela. Thank goodness Kershner came in and added the subtext and subtlety Empire needed.

 

yeah not sure how I feel about this scene.

 

It feels too expository, to be honest. "Here, my mortal enemies, I will reveal EXACTLY what's going on."

 

i forgot that needa had more appearances. i retract my statement about it being his first offense. it seems that vader took issue with his pattern as he did with ozzel's. ozzel was "clumsy and stupid" always making bad calls and fumbling and he would contradict vader's "omniscient" rulings. i don't know if ozzel even knew that vader might kill him? (oblivious as well)

needa kept backing out to save his crew and coming to somewhat lazy conclusions (they must have been destroyed in the asteroid field because even our much larger more awesome ships have taken a lot of damage... or... the falcon disappeared off the scopes so i guess it vanished, better go apologize to vader!) needa i think did know his life was in danger, but he just couldn't seem to get himself to take every possible risk for vader's objectives (he wouldn't go all the way) and he gave up too fast.

so basically they were both killed for repeating their same patterns and after about three mistakes (of doing this every time) they were killed. this is vader's sense of "fairness" haha.

my impression was that the empire is only "gracious to its friends" when it serves them. one can cease to be a "friend" at any time for any reason. for instance: knowing too much, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. if being gracious just involves giving money or resources, the empire can manage that (it has lots of money and resources).

i guess i think that vader doesn't kill people unless "necessary" but what he thinks warrants necessity is perhaps very different from what a lot of people would think.

--

also regarding that early ESB script convo, i find it unbelievable i guess that vader would just let leia go because now she doesn't have any information. for one, she always has information about where the rebels are. in this case she knows the coordinates. han probably does too. i mean vader was just at hoth earlier when the rebels were all evacuating... they must regroup somewhere and if leia doesn't know where, i mean really who in the rebellion does? i guess perhaps vader doesn't care atm because he's singularly pursuing luke.

--

also i definitely thought leia and vader had run-ins before ANH. she was long suspected as being involved with the rebellion but had avoided getting caught in anything criminal up until the desperate run with the death star plans.

 

None of the above. George and the other writers were making it up as they went along.

 

Pretty much.

 

I was going to answer this question but you pretty much took the words out of my mouth. That and as someone before said "George Lucas." I love George but he definitely changed some things as he went along. Which he can do as it's his story.

 

I think he DID sense her, but just in the respect she had connection to the Force. If we go by Yoda in TESB, EVERYONE has a connection to the Force - it's created by living things, it surrounds us and binds us. So, it surrounds and binds all living things. And, perhaps, he even felt she had a strong connection to the Force. Perhaps ,as others have said, he really didn't want her killed on the Death Star, and tried delaying her execution immediately as Tarkin ordered ( it's telling Tarkin specifically orders Vader to terminate her, immediately, yet after that there's time for the Falcon to arrive at Alderran, get captured, the group tosneak on board in Stormtrooper disguises, get to the control tower, argue, look stuff up in the computer, go to the prison level, and rescue her. Not quite immediately, is it? And Vader almost seems releved when hearing the freighter was captured . "She may yet be of some use to us." Like he was looking for an excuse to postpone the execution. Long Term, knowing the Sith now like we do, perhaps he felt she could be of some use to HIM, becoming his apprentice to overthrow Sidious? and even if he did sense the Force strongly in her,it doesn't mean he'd feel the familial connection. Luke is right in front of him in an X-Wing, and Vader sense he is strong with the force, but through the Force DOESN'T fell that he is his son.

 

I think it's probably because she herself had no idea that she was his daughter. Vader can't sense any thoughts regarding it, like he did with Luke on the DSII, because Leia had no thoughts about it to be sensed.

 

Agreed. Vader didn't sense that Luke was his son in the DS trench (I know, I know... Luke wasn't his son when ANH was made, but it helps make sense of the lack of familiarity after the fact.)

 

In the third draft of ANH, Vader did say something like that.

VADER: "You’re next, Blue Five… I have this feeling I know you. The Force is strong with you."

The fact is that sensing Jedi and Sith is not easy. Vader didn't know that Obi-wan was still on the Falcon, yet could sense his presence. Palpatine couldn't sense Luke arrive, but Vader could. And speaking of the Dark Lord, no one could sense him for years. Obi-wan and Qui-gon couldn't sense him on Tatooine, much less behind the doors in the Theed hangar.

 

He probably felt a connection to her but felt that it was probably the fact that she so reminds him of Padme (due to how she acts, her role in the senate, similar looks etc, as opposed to believing there is any direct relation between them, let alone to him).

 

He can't feel it until it gets written into the script, obviously.

 

It certainly needed a bit of a re-write (particularly in Lando's cavalier attitude regarding the Empire/Vader), But would've been cool to have some kind of scene in there.

 

Because Leia was less connected to the Force. She was diplomat and ambassador for the Senate/Rebellion. Luke in contrast is tapping into the Force. Besides it isn't until ESB that the Emperor reveals there are offspring of Skywalker. Vader wouldn't have believed anyone was his children (because he assumed they perished with Padme), but when his master admits there is Son of Skywalker, Vader believes it. I have always wondered how the Emperor discovered this. Again, I think Leia was harder to find because she wasn't isolated like Luke, but in public eye as diplomat. Luke actually was in more danger, he was on Tatooine (Vader's home planet), raised by relatives of Anakin/Vader through the Lars marriage to Shimi, and Luke exhibited the same obsession and prowess with flying as his Father. Leia was similar to her mother, being diplomat and voice in the Senate (before its dissolution later in ANH). Vader probably did not suspect her being Padme daughter because whenever his mind goes to Padme he suffers greatly, and so probably keeps his memories of Padme to minimum (in EU/Legends in the chamber in ESB). Luke in contrast has so many similarities to Anakin, that Vader had he not learned from His Master the truth in ESB, probably could have come to conclusion at some point.