Saga Why is Vader still impressed with power of Dark Side if Padme wasn't saved?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Tanjint, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    That and it is also that the Sith aren't afraid of the Force like the Jedi are. The Sith will learn all aspects of the Force and use it as they see fit, while the Jedi consider these teachings to be unnatural and forbidden.
  2. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Really? But why? And I can kind of get that in the heat of the moment....sort of but....after his attempts at control over everything have backfired so stupendously, with all the time he has to repent on just how horribly belly-up that all went...why would he be in thrall to either the darkside or to Sidious? I'll elaborate a little more on this below.

    He (Sidious) didn't take Padmé from him, but; his turning to the darkside far as he is concerned anyway : "It seems that, in your anger, you killed her". mark down on the darkside....not to mention his anger and arrogance have left him a shell of his former self, a wheezing, monstrous cyborg....just like his beloved Grievous.

    But, also...his first task given to him by his new master is to deal with the Separatist leadership. Now, I don't know just how stupid I'm supposed to believe Anakin is but......I'll be clear about this, I'd expect Jar-Jar to figure this out; clearly the Separatist leadership, the Trade Federation, Dooku et al have been working hand in hand with Sidious. The attempts on Padmé's life....all orchestrated by, or at the very least endorsed by,....Sidious.

    How did he use him? Ermmm, maybe by lying to him since he was a child about who he is and about what he is about? You mention not asking him to spy on the Jedi Council....but, of course he did...he wanted him to be his eyes and ears on the Jedi Council....of course he manipulated him, through flattery and the pretence that he is interested in democracy, that he had reason to mistrust the Jedi Council but.... again, let's be clear about how stupendously stupid I would have to believe Anakin was, to swallow the idea that...he would still begrudge the Council asking him to spy on 'Palpatine' because....'Palpatine' has now revealed that he is Sidious - the Council, Obi-Wan..they were right. Sidious has made a mockery of who Anakin thought 'Palpatine' was (a "good man").

    How can you possibly, seriously, argue that Sidious did not manipulate or use Anakin? Everything bad that happens to Anakin is down to Sidious, and the one power he told him he could gain through the darkside that he wanted, has become worthless to him. The one thing he wanted to save has been destroyed by his dabbling in the darkside.

    And...he then doesn't have the gumption to uphold anything that his beloved Padmé believed in? Or the most basic intelligence to figure out that a) the darkside didn't work out well for him and b) that Sidious had destroyed everything good in his life. No.....he becomes, by ANH, a strident and vigorous champion of the Empire.

    There is the massive disjoint. That Vader, the one we meet in ANH, could not be the man who loved Padmé, whose turn was predicated upon his fear of losing her. That Vader would have been left to die by Sidious, a broken, useless man.
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  3. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    But....Anakin didn't fall for that. He refutes it. Palpatine has to delve into his bag for a more tasty bait to hook Anakin......yes, he's fishing for that hook...and he gets it with the idea that he can stop people from dying. That's it. Prior to that Anakin is restless, uninterested...uncomfortable even, with sitting there with Palpatine. That scene is part of the set-up....if anything its there to emphasise that Anakin's only interest in the darkside...the only thing that Palpatine actually has to lure him with, is saving Padmé's life.
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  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Because the power of the dark side is addictive. He enjoys the rush, the sensation of power. And he wants to be in control. But to have that control, he needs to learn from Sidious and bide his time.

    Those were Anakin's faults, not Palpatine's. And he blames Obi-wan for what happened, not himself and the dark side. He blames Obi-wan for turning her against him and he blames Obi-wan for hurting him as he did. The only blame that Vader has is on himself for still being a learner. That is why when he faces Obi-wan later on, he states that he has become the Master now and will not make the same mistakes again.

    Anakin wanted to kill them anyway. But remember, he hasn't forgiven for what he's done. He's just using him to get what he wants and is why he wants to take him down.

    Yes, but that was not a manipulation. That was withholding information from him.

    Ah, but Anakin didn't see that as spying. Unlike with Palpatine where he sees it as spying. It is a sign that Anakin's loyalties are towards the Chancellor and the Senate, ove the Jedi Order. And as we know, when he is told the truth, Anakin's instinct is to take him out, but Padme is at stake which is why he goes back to the Temple. He is trying to do the right thing.

    I know that he did, but you have to look at it from Anakin's point of view.

    Everything bad that happens isn't all because of Sidious. It was himself. He was the one who had allowed himself to become attached to Padme and his decisions to put her above all other considerations, was due to himself. Palpatine gave him a reason to betray everyone, but Anakin was the one who made the choice because of his attachments.

    He didn't believe in what Padme believed in. He never had. He's believed in Palpatine's ideals for a long time. And as to the other part, the dark side isn't at fault for Padme's death. Obi-wan was at fault for turning her against him and he is at fault because he caused her death. He doesn't blame Palpatine or the dark side. Sidious didn't destroy everything good in his life. He did. He stays with the dark side because it is all that he has left.

    He does fall for it. Prior to revealing himself, he is told that the Jedi and the Sith are the same. And Palpatine tells him that even the Sith were willing to do the things that the Jedi weren't. And that the Sith are the only ones who will teach him what he will not learn from the Jedi. This is why after Anakin updates him on the Battle of Utapau, he tells him that he believes that the Jedi are withholding things from him. This is why Palpatine starts telling him the truth. And afterwards, the more Anakin is alone with his thoughts, the more his priorities start to shift. He starts thinking about what he can do as Darth Vader that he cannot do as Anakin Skywalker. This is why he tells Padme that they can rule after Palpatine is dead. He starts creating his own goals.
  5. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    This whole addictive argument....

    As I said in an earlier post, if you use the darkside and it're victorious, you feel powerful...yeah, that can be addictive but... no matter how much of a high in the moment, if you come down and you've killed your wife, your unborn child, you've lost your good arm and both your legs, your lungs are burnt out and you have a face not even Jabba's mother could love.... I figure no high is going to be tempting enough to draw you back in again after that.

    Now when I say wife, let's not be blasé about this. We're talking the woman he loved...could not bear to lose. You say he didn't believe in what she believed in but, rather, in what 'Palpatine' believed in. I'll answer this in two ways.

    Firstly, he believed in Padmé. He allegedly loved her. But after, he has no concept of owing her something, anything? What about his mother? He feels nothing for her now either....nothing for what she stood for?

    But...what did 'Palpatine' believe in? Well, as he told the whole galaxy, he believes in democracy. 'Palpatine' is a lie, everything that he pretends to believe in is a lie - so what 'Palpatine' believes in and what Sidious believes in are very different things - there is no point in conflating the two.

    And, following on from that, the idea that he is only "witholding information" and that this is not manipulating him is, at best, tendentious. It is, after all, by the pretence of 'Palpatine' that he gains his position and manipulates the whole galaxy....that is a rather important plot point in the PT. To suggest that the pretence is not also manipulating Anakin would be a stretch.

    Let's get to the heart of this, and undermine the ' he resented the Council because...' argument. He explains to Obi-Wan why he is offended by the request to spy on 'Palpatine', and it's because he is a good man, a mentor and a friend. But once he knows that 'Palpatine' is a conceit, all of that is blown out of the water. Hence his anger at what he has learned, why he would very much like to kill him. On which note, you seem caught between two ideas and seem to conflate them - that Padmé's life is on the line and that he is trying to do the right thing.

    To be clear, by Sidious revealing who he truly is, unless Anakin has the memory of a goldfish and the intelligence of a banana, he can have no reason to resent the Council's suspicions any more.

    You say I need to see it from Anakin's pov...but that's exactly my point; I am, and unless I believe Anakin to be really, really, really, really stupid (like, I don't know how many reallys are required here, something like really to the power 10xludicrous) then I can't fathom how he could ignore how much Sidious is intrinsically at the centre of all that has gone wrong. I mean, everything he has pretended to believe and to be as 'Palpatine' has been a complete lie. He's disgusted by the true Sidious...yet somehow over the next twenty years he never reflects on this and in fact embraces the ideals of this Sidious character that he despises. I wouldn't trust this guy to be able to flip burgers without messing up.....but here he is, commanding and leading vital missions, both for the Republic and then later for the Empire.

    I would ask you to review the scene in question. Anakin doesn't 'fall for it'. The whole scene is about Sidious fishing for the hook to draw Anakin in. He refutes what 'Palpatine' has to say about the Sith and the Jedi being the same....outright refutes it. I just don't see how, from that, you deduce that he 'fell for it'. In fact the scene is there to emphasise that the only bait that catches Anakin's attention is the alleged power to 'stop the one's you love, from dying'. He has absolutely no time for anything else that 'Palpatine' is fishing with. And, actually, to me this makes sense of Anakin's character to this point. For all of Anakin's faults as a Jedi, he has a very clear conception of good and evil as very different things...there is no room in Anakin's thinking for such ammorality.

    Not only is Anakin not interested in the ideals that 'Palpatine' is sneaking out here (Sidious's ideals), he is demonstrably uncomfortable with them.
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  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    Anakin is stupid. Anyone who gets trained for ten years to protect the republic but doesn't know what a democratic republic is or that he's been trained to protect exactly that type of thing, which the galactic republic is, is stupid.

    Stupid is as stupid does.
  7. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jun 18, 2017
    Maybe the Jedi in practice aren't too enamored by democratic government, they just say among themselves (understandably, reasonably but not encouragingly) "Well, it's the best they can do." And the Jedi may emphasize that they are wiser and more disciplined than non-Jedi so it's only that they also advocate humility that prevents more Jedi from favoring non-democracy.
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    VADER: "You don't know the power of the dark side."

    YODA: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

    The thing with addiction is that it can overpower one's reasoning and sense of judgment. Even when people know how dangerous and destructive addictions can be, they wind up going back to it again and again. Some people are never able to truly kick their addiction and eventually die because of it. For Vader, he has nothing left but anger and hate. That anger and hate has attached itself to him like vice grip and he cannot break free of it. Nor does he desire to do so. His hatred for everyone and everything is what keeps him going and his overall desire to be all powerful, is why he remains with Palpatine.

    Anakin loved Padme, but what he loved more was the idea of her and not who she truly was. Padme represented a bright beacon in his life during a time of uncertainty and innocence. When he was living a life of a slave, back before he saw the universe for what it was, she was a breath of fresh air. But in time, he came to see her as a crutch for his life. Something that he needed to keep in his life, no matter the cost. And with Shmi's death, she became his anchor to the past. A past that he cannot let go of and tries so desperately to cling onto, that he will suffer for it. He cannot see Padme and Shmi as anything other than possessions to hold onto. To make him feel whole and right again.

    But he believes in Palpatine's desire to rule the Republic. That the Republic needed a strong leader, one who could break the bonds that were shackling past administrations and bring order out of chaos. Remember, Anakin believes that people should be made to do what is in their best interests. He even says to Obi-wan that Palpatine having even more executive powers can only be a good thing, as it will mean less debate and deliberations in the Senate, and more action taken to end the war. For ten years, Palpatine has planted this notion in his head.

    He knows that Palpatine is evil, but at the same time, he cannot see past the things that he did for him. The time and effort he put into building up a friendship and trust over the years. His efforts to have Anakin recognized for his contributions to the galaxy and the Jedi Order. His keeping quiet about the Tusken slaughter. These things are important to Anakin. He is loyal to people over principles and this is his defining trait and a source of weakness. He will forsake any principles that he has in order to protect those that he cares for.

    He is caught between the principle that as a Jedi, he must destroy or at least contain Sidious and wanting to keep Padme in his life. In returning to Palpatine's office, he does so because he doesn't want to lose Padme and thinks that he can try and capture Palpatine, thus allowing him to fulfill his obligation to both the Jedi and his wife. The problem is that he has to choose between one or the other.

    Ah, but when Anakin is talking to Palpatine in the opera house, he is very much uncomfortable with what the Jedi want him to do. What he refutes is the notion that the Jedi are afraid to lose their power and that the Sith were supposed to be selfish individuals.There is, however, a part of him that is doubting what he even said. If he truly believed that the Jedi were not afraid to lose their power, they wouldn't be so opposed to Palpatine's growing power. If he truly believed that the Jedi were selfless, they wouldn't hold back teaching their members all their is to know about the Force.

    When he enters Palpatine's office and sees Mace is willing to kill someone who is unarmed and has in his view surrendered, this is when he speaks up. Not just because he wants to grill him about saving Padme, but he also sees Mace in a light that's different from before. He sees Mace as he himself was, willing to do whatever it took to stop evil. Yet, Mace was supposed to represent the best of the Jedi Order. Someone who wasn't going to compromise himself and the Code, in order to achieve a victory. Yet, Mace is willing to break the Code. The Council was willing to commit treason for no other reason than they were afraid to lose their power.

    Yet, he was not uncomfortable enough to tell Padme about them three years earlier.

    He knows what the Republic is and that it is a system of government that's very flawed and ineffective. He's losing faith in democracy and rather likes the idea of forcing people to act, when they would refuse to compromise on their own accord.
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  9. Sara_Kenobi

    Sara_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Sep 21, 2000
    I always took Vader for being addicted to the Dark side, by the time he meets Luke.
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Calling Palpatine an "unarmed man" is a bit much. And of course in that film Obi-Wan had the opportunity to kill a literally unarmed ( and unlegged ) man but declined.
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 4

    Nov 10, 2011
    That's a strange reading. That scene is clearly there to provide a multitude of reasons why Anakin would be taken in by Palpatine. The promise of dark side powers is the emotional hook, while the moral equivocation of the Jedi and the Sith is the intellectual hook. He knows Anakin won't betray the Jedi unless he can find a way to justify it in his own mind; that's why Anakin initially turns Palpatine in to the Jedi instead of immediately pledging himself to his teachings. It's also why Anakin later tells Obi-Wan that from his point of view, the Jedi are evil. He's parroting what Palpatine says in the opera scene about how good is a point of view, and how the Jedi are indistinguishable from the Sith in every way apart from not being on Anakin's side.

    Again, the idea that that dialogue is only there to show how completely irrelevant it is to Anakin's turn is bizarre, because it's directly and blatantly contradicted by multiple prominent items in the film after that point.
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  12. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Yoda's line is used here as if it exists on its own, it is without context - and that context is vital to understanding addiction. When asked if the darkside is more powerful, Yoda replies that; "No. Quicker, easier, more seductive"

    It is the feeling of 'winning' of gaining something that is addictive psychologically. The idea here seems to be that, like some ridiculous notions that were spread early on about crack cocaine - that one puff and **BANG** you are magically, chemically addicted - that the darkside is like some magical spell or curse, and once you have tasted you can never go back.

    To me, that only works if you in some way 'win'. Anakin doesn't. He loses everything.

    Let me put this into perspective. In his dying moments, he watches as his son fries and contemplates who he is, and at this point recognises that the Emperor is wrong. Now....he's had twenty years to contemplate this.....and only now he figures this out? After what happened at the end of ROTS?

    In order for that to work, in order, imo (let's not forget to remind people..) for Vader to be the vigorous and committed Imperial that he is at the beginning of ANH he has to feel like he was won by the time of ROTS. What we have is a broken man who shouts that awful "Noooooooooooo".

    20 years to contemplate, and only at the end does he put the pieces of the puzzle together - knowing what he knows by the end of ROTS? Just how utterly stupid do I have to believe this character is?


    I'm not absolutely sure what point it is that you are making, other than - he used to be this person (who loves these individuals - his mother and Padmé) and now he has become a different person who doesn't care....which really doesn't make sense of the aforementioned "Nooooooo".

    Is the darkside a memory swipe then?

    He turned to the darkside specifically for the power to save Padmé, who he could not bear to lose his anger (the darkside) he killed her and so...lost her. Explain to me again why he is so in thrall to the darkside.

    I like that you have taken to conflating Palpatine and Sidious, as if they are one and the same entity. Anakin has indeed believed that more power to the Chancellor (Palpatine) will be a good thing because he sees, from what Palpatine feeds him, that it is the deliberations of democracy that is holding back defeating the Separatists....and Palpatine here is pretending to be interested in protecting the Republic, and Anakin sees this in him. Once he understands that Palpatine is Sidious, that becomes meaningless. Palpatine is not a good man who is protecting the Republic; it isn't the deliberations of the Senate that are at fault for extending the war, this Sidious has been behind everything - the war is ongoing because Sidious has wanted it thus. To talk about what he believes about Palpatine as if it is the same thing he feels about Sidious is, frankly, ridiculous.

    Unless, of course, Anakin is really, really stupid.

    Again, using the misdirection that Sidious is Palpatine. He knows that he has been used by Sidious, working under the guise of Palpatine. He's been grooming him for crying out adult would be able to perceive this.

    Let me re-iterate. He is disgusted by Sidious. By what he knows he has done (and why he would very much like to kill him) and by what he bows in front of.

    And, you are right, Anakin is forced to choose, and he chooses the power to save Padmé.

    Yes, at that time he is uncomfortable with what the Council have asked of him....but that's because he believes this man is a good man, a friend and a mentor called Palapatine....but of course, he learns later that that idea is a sham, that the Council were absolutely right to direct their suspicions toward his office, and indeed his person.

    You already stated the choice that Anakin made here.....and it had nothing to do with Mace "breaking the code"...he wants Palpatine alive because he wants the power to save Padmé. You think Palpatine was there thinking... "He'll never let Mace break the Jedi code.....though clearly I'm not unnarmed at all hahahaha", he even reminds Anakin of that little power that he told him about earlier....
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  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    The issue is that the turn was changed quite late in the game.
    Originally, Anakin turned because he was distrustful of the Jedi, what they asked him to do and how he felt they didn't trust him and were acting in dishonorable ways.
    Padme was a factor but not the primary one.
    Lucas changed it during pick ups and now the turn is ONLY about Padme.

    So you still have the stuff of Anakin not liking that the Jedi ask him to spy on Palpatine, whom he sees as a good man and the Jedi are paranoid and maybe even traitors for doing this.
    After he finds out that Palpatine is Sidious, all that goes away.
    He knows now that the Jedi were totally correct in their suspicion of Palpatine, that he is evil and behind all the trouble of the last 10 + years.
    So he is angry, even to the point of killing Palpatine right there.
    But he instead tells Mace.
    And he also says that Palpatine won't give up his extra powers like he promised, so even Anakin acknowledges that Palpatine is trying to seize power, illegally.

    What changes things for him is Padme, nothing else.

    The dreams, his worry and fear, what happened to his mother and Palpatine's promises of a "Stop death spell.", that is why he turns.

    This makes it clear that the only thing Anakin cares about is Padme, the rest doesn't matter.

    So all the stuff that comes after the turn, that does not fit. Anakin knows there is no Jedi plot, why he agrees that the Jedi will move against the senate makes no sense.
    Those lines worked when the reason for the turn was his distrust of the Jedi and that they were traitors and he had been won over by Palpatine's plans for his empire.
    Not when the turn is only about saving Padme.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  14. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    Exactly. And it is those alternative reasons for turning that would have worked better. He could have been sent to finish off the Separatist leadership without being made aware that Sidious had been behind them - he could simply have 'discovered' them (as with Grievous). If the story was that he believed, still, that Palpatine was a good man, a strong man that was required to keep order in the Galaxy far, far away; that the Jedi had plotted to overthrow him, that they were stifling Anakin because they envied/feared his power and mistrusted him, that he mistrusted Obi-Wan and Padmé - no need for any basis for this, only the suspicion placed there by Sidious - that would have worked far better. The story that Lucas seemingly started with at the outset of ROTS, and for most of the time making it, would have resulted, imo, in a far more believable turn than the one we got.
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  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    He did lose, but it is how he views the loss. The point of view. He lost Padme, yes, but not because the dark side couldn't save her. But because Obi-wan "brainwashed" her into turning against him and prevented him from being able to save her, when the time came. The injuries are problematic to be sure, but one that he can deal with. And Palpatine was able to defeat Yoda and form the Empire, which is still a victory. And the threat of the Separatists and the Jedi are gone, or will soon be eliminated.

    Anakin as Vader was moving past his initial concerns for Padme, after he has turned. He's less concerned about saving her and more about being all powerful. This is what happens the further along one goes towards the dark side. The stop caring about people and the things that used to matter. It's why Dooku was able to battle many of the Jedi that he once cared for, because he stopped caring for them. Padme's dead now and he cannot bring her back. But he still has his anger and hate for the Jedi, for the galaxy and his desire to be all powerful. Those are what keeps him on the dark side.

    The thing is that Anakin isn't really interested in the democracy of the Republic, which is evident when he supports the notion of people being forced into doing what's best. He is only interested in a government that gets things done and that is no longer the Republic. And whenever there is any hint of dissent or disloyalty, he becomes offended and upset. Anakin understands that Palaptine started the war, but he is coming around to seeing it as he does, which is that the war was a necessary evil. A means to eliminate the Jedi and the Separatists, to bring an end to the corruption in the Senate and to finally bring peace and justice to the galaxy.

    But he also believes that Palpatine did care on some level. That it wasn't all just a deception on his part.

    Anakin has more than just one motivation. Remember, he's doing something that part of him knows is wrong and part of him is thinking it is right. This the conflict that is evident when he's crying after he's killed the Separatists and the Jedi, and it is the conflict that he feels when he's around Luke.
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  16. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 18, 2012
    But Anakin didn't have more than one motivation. Lucas' own comments and commentary and the scenes centred on his turn exemplify this. He ought to have had more than one motivation, he initially had more than one motivation but the story was changed at the last minute - as @Samuel Vimes pointed out.

    From Anakin agreeing that the Jedi's next move will be against the Senate to his declaration that, from his pov the Jedi are evil, there is a whole swathe of dialogue that makes no sense given the nature of his turn and his discovery of who 'Palpatine' really is. You and others use these lines as if they evidence the idea of more than one motivation where they are actually, instead, jarring and idiotic given what has just taken place - what we have been shown taking place.

    Anakin is not conflicted because some part of him thinks what he is planning on doing and what he does is in some way right, I don't know why you are claiming that. He absolutely knows its wrong, but he is motivated to put that to one side for the sole reason, the singular motivation, of saving Padmé. Again, not simply my viewing of it, it is what Lucas says.
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that the conflict and the crying was because of what he was going to do. I was just referring to all of his actions up to that point were bothering him, but he keeps trying to rationalize his actions as being for Padme and for the good of everyone.
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  18. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    Very articulately stated.

    I'll see myself out.
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  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    His problems are about saving Padme. He's not justifying his desire for power with Padme's safety. He has genuinely linked his mother's death to a lack of power to prevent it. It's his misguided/gullible/illogical solutions that put Padme and everyone else in danger. He doesn't keep trying to rationalise them before or while he's doing them. (He even declares how wrong and futile it was to massacre the Tuskens).

    He does them completely at Palpatine's suggestion and then later rationalises that it will be all right and he'll take care of everything once Padme's safety is assured. He doesn't rationalise that the Jedi are evil. It's purely a gratuitous push back on what he knows is true.
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

    "This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done, but he’s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with, but he is going to go along anyway.

    It’s the one moment that says he’s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

    You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    "Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the universe."

    --Hayden Christensen, GQ Magazine.
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  21. Mandalorian Riddler

    Mandalorian Riddler Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 27, 2018
    Palpy played it so well.

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 25, 2003

    This, 100%.

    To me it makes perfect sense. How many times in life do we (or anyone) continue to do something we know is not right, but we do it anyways-and we try to rationalize it, cos we feel it's too late, and doesn't matter anymore, or that things are simply too far along to go back to the way it could've been. Obviously what went on with Vader is way worse but still-same idea.

    Also, it's crystal clear all over the 2nd half of the film that Anakin has reservations about what he has done/is doing/has to do. You can see it on his face in several places, IMO Hayden does a great job expressing Anakin's emotions in all this. The reason it lasts IMO, is cos he is angry and bitter at how everything blew up in his face, and now Sidious is all he has left. Not to mention, he'd always harbored that anger at Obi-Wan and the Jedi, regardless of what Sidious did. I can see how he'd have felt angry, betrayed or deceived by the order-leading to this raw deal he's been dealt. But I'd imagine he realizes over time the reality of things, and by that point he's so far along that he starts basically biding his time until he could find the right opportunity to defeat the Emperor once and for all. That's at least how I always saw it.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  23. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well I have to disagree.

    About Anakin and doing things for the greater good.
    Sorry, don't see that.
    He is wants what is good for HIM and only HIM.
    If the choice was between saving Padme and letting the rest of the galaxy burn, he would save Padme.
    Even if he and Padme were the only living beings left in the Universe, he would choose that over loosing her.
    From what he says, Padme was all that mattered to him, the rest was unimportant and he would do ANYTHING to save her. No matter how many would die, it was all worth it to him, as long as he didn't loose Padme.

    As I've said, the problem here is that Anakin's turn was changed quite late and so was the reason for the turn.
    So we have several different Anakin's in the film.
    First an Anakin that has doubts about the Jedi and think that they are being disloyal and plotting against the good chancellor.
    Then we have an Anakin that is ALL about saving Padme, no matter that he knows that Palpatine is evil and behind all the trouble and he thinks should get arrested and he even wants to kill him.
    But since Palpatine has fooled Anakin into thinking that only he can save Padme, Anakin goes along with it
    Even later we suddenly get an Anakin that has plans to to rule the galaxy and is thinking about killing Palpatine as soon as he has gotten what he wanted.

    ONE of these motivations/characters would have worked fine but by having several of them, the character of Anakin jumps all over the place and what happens with him comes across as disjointed and the character does not feel consistent.
    At least to me.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  24. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jun 10, 2014
    It must be remembered that Anakin changed on Mortis first and had willingly joined The Son.

    Anakin's motives there are different from ROTS although there is some similarities but stark differences as well between the two Anakin's and how The Son and Sidious were able to turn him to their side.

    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  25. KnightOfRen66

    KnightOfRen66 Jedi Youngling

    Apr 11, 2017
    Well, he was lied to by palpatine into believing that padme and the children all died when padme was giving birth. I think that vader wanted to learn more sith knowledge because its shown in the new marvel comics that palpatine's main interest is in teaching vader.