ST Why Snoke IS Darth Plagueis

I don't think anyone is disputing this, are they?

 

The poll is slightly off...

I originally voted "yes", but now I would vote "no" so the figures should read 272 - 272...

 

True, but this is another one of those "what's written later conflicts with existing lore" things, such as Palpatine lying to Anakin due to what happened in TCW. As far as I can recall, most of the Sith history/lore didn't exist back in the days of the OT, including the Rule of Two. Even the term was just mentioned in a script or novel or some such thing I think.

Also, hasn't Pablo recently confirmed that Snoke is not a traditional Sith, making this debate somewhat moot? I think I read that around here somewhere.

 

Snoke could be a free lance dark sider or from another school of thought.

 

I'm guessing the Rule of Two was retroactively created to explain why there was only two Sith at the height of Palpatine's reign in the OT. There were only two Jedi, but we also were told the Jedi were hunted down by Darth Vader and the Empire, yet there were only two Sith too.

When I was a kid and watched the OT (before the PT came out), I thought nothing of Vader and Palpatine turning Luke. I thought Luke taking Vader's place just meant Luke was going to be second to the Emperor and Vader was falling out of favor. I didn't understand it to mean that Palpatine wanted Luke to kill Vader. Palpatine also says that only by he and Vader working together can they turn Luke, so I never would have thought that they were working together to replace Vader, because then that's suicide. But then the PT established this new rule that now makes me view that scene differently.

As far as Snoke goes, he has been said to not be a Sith, but at the same time I think Dark Siders betray each other out of greed. I don't think one necessarily has to be a Sith to have ambition and give into greed. So he could still perhaps see the wisdom in only having one apprentice that he can manage. I don't know. It depends on if more apprentices of Snoke pop up.

 

I think the only way to settle this debate is for Disney to create a spin off film of Plagueis and Sidious, throw Maul in there too, and we see at the end of the film if Plagueis truly dies or not. Get to work Lucasfilm!

 

JJ is "unaware" or ignorant of Anakin Skywalker and Padme? JJ is unaware or ignorant of all of these PT connectors throughout TFA? He is unaware of the music of JW with the PT references placed in the music? He is unaware of the connection to Han and Ben to Padme, Obi-Wan and Vader?






















He is unaware of the Anakin vs Dooku and Obi-Wan vs Vader duels in ROTS referenced in TFA with Rey vs Kylo Ren?

He is unaware of EM's Obi-Wan, Sidious from ROTS and Vader's NOOOO in the Rey's vision soundmix?

He is unaware that placing such great importance on Anakin's Lightsaber which is also Darth Vader's first lightsaber directly creates a path from Anakin in ROTS though Luke then Rey and Kylo Ren?

I don't see how that can be seriously entertained.

You're right that was lame. It makes no sense as he states it.

So it may be the point was that JJ was in that one instance actually unaware and ignorant that one of the VFX people put Anakin's flag in as an easter egg without his approval so he removed it.

Maybe for him the idea that Maz had both Anakin's Lightsaber and his podracing flag (which actually would be Watto's flag anyway) was too much of a co-incidence. I don't know but with the mass of other PT things in the movie relating to the central characters the idea that he was ignorant or unaware that much really doesn't work and ultimately doesn't matter anyway because they are there.

 

Qui-Riv-Brid

Wow u really prove a point. Now calm down and relax We're all friends here!

 

THE FIRST LINE of TFA has a mention to "Bring BALANCE to the Force"

Which is a PT concept.

Really, people should stop trying to think JJ hates the PT.

 

The movie does it for me. I'm just pointing it out.

Not quite. They have to fit around JJ and what RJ and CT want to create.

They can go ahead and craft backstory that will never be in the movies of course.

Well first off Lucas did in the first place that was "canonized" in the EU Plagueis novel. Except that backstory and all the other things that were in that book (many from Lucas himself) was decanonized. Even Plagueis being Sidious' master was NOT canon until the Tarkin novel brought it back into canon. It was not an established part of the movies or TCW after the reboot of canon.

It's true that there was virtually no chance that was going to be changed but the fact is that until it was canonized officially it wasn't "true".

That's my point. The only thing that was "canon" ie the current in-universe continuity was the movies and TCW then going forward the new movies, animated series et all afterwards.

I agree.

Exactly. The point is though JJ and co's plans at the top level were sketched out broadly a few years ago now and the Story Group has at least that broad form to work from. At this point it's really not all that hard to co-ordinate. As we've seen with other companies it gets difficult after a few years in and then often they do another reboot.

I can't imagine it works like that at all. They don't tell JJ or the other movie directors what they can't do. They come up with solutions for what they want to do or implement the solutions that they have already come up with and work that into the canon.

The Sith thing is very easy to work around. If I and other fans can come up various solutions then you'd think JJ and the Story Group could. If they can't then they need to get new people in there.

Simplest answer of course is that Plagueis renounces the ways of the Sith. BTW in the novel he basically does that already so even there that is part of the character.

If JJ wants to use Plagueis and the Sith then no one is going to tell him he can't. They can point out the continuity of the previous movies and offer different scenarios for it to work but if JJ has done his work then he already has those answers already. What the Story Group does is help him to flesh that out in the finer details.

This is exactly the whole point though. We really know next to nothing about Plagueis. In terms of canon all we have is a name in ROTS and a few things said by Palpatine that we don't know for a "fact" are true or not. Back when JJ started on this a few years ago there was next to nothing to worry about or to stay true to. Plagueis as Sidious' master itself was not "true" as far as canon went until they said that was the case and that was in the Tarkin novel.

Well this is all fine but those particular points have been gone over again and again on this thread. It still doesn't change all of the Sith, Sidious and Plagueis-like things that Snoke represents from aspects of the old "canon" that as I already said various elements don't actually exist in canon anymore.

As I have said many times and will say yet again I don't either believe that Snoke is or isn't Plagueis. He might be. He might not be but the point is that if we take for face value that he isn't then that still makes me ask the question why present this character in such a way that evokes so much of what Plagueis WAS in the old canon?

We know they have brought various elements of the old canon back into the new canon pretty quickly. Is it just some sort of parallel development whereby JJ and co came up with Snoke and based him on Sidious but made him alien and have him be a Dark Sider but the only way they saw the Dark Side was through the Sith lens?

If that is the case then they unknowingly created a character in Snoke that as of TFA lines up extremely well with the kind of thing that we can imagine that Plagueis would do. As I said before it could even be that Snoke was Plagueis at some point then they changed their minds but not the Snoke character. What kind of a character will Plagueis be in canon now that Snoke exists?

Remember all of this story is totally open in the new canon. If they want to take various aspects of the Lucas/EU Plagueis character and give that to Snoke as a new character they can. All that it means is that the canon Plagueis will have to be adjusted to not be what he was.

Lucas created one character that end up becoming many characters in one way or another so if it's Kane Starkiller or Anakin Skywalker or Obi-Wan, Yoda, Sidious, Dooku et all you find that the DNA of so many characters starts at one point they branches out.

Snoke seems like he starts with the Emperor from which many paths can be taken.

 

The story groups two main jobs are to be a reference resource to future authors of Star Wars, and to make sure future authors do not change already established canon. So yes the story group would have veto power over JJ if JJ wanted to do something like change Coruscant from a Core Planet to an Outer Rim Planet. Disney wants to keep the Star Wars universe coherent you don't do that by giving authors free reign to whatever crazy idea they have. The story groups main purpose is to make sure that coherent universe stays intact.

So no the story groups job is not to retcon the established universe to the whim of the next author of the next Star Wars story.

None of this means they dictate the story to JJ or whoever, they just make sure that whatever JJ comes up with plays within the established rules.


P.S. By author I mean anyone who creates a new Star Wars story in any medium, not just novels. This would include directors.

 

officially debunked. end thread.

 

@pablohidalgo So you said "Snoke is not Plagueis" but was he once Plagueis (like how Vader was once Anakin but rejected his former self)?

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo
@Joseph_Plant They're two separate characters.

@pablohidalgo And that's how Kylo would describe Anakin/Vader. So can you just clarify - was Snoke ever Plagueis? Yes or no? Thanks Pabs.

Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo
@Joseph_Plant No. Separate. You would need to buy two airplane tickets if you wanted Plagueis and Snoke at a premiere.

No idea why he has to keep repeating himself to nutcase fans. Also included, Plagueis was never apart of GL's story treatment/outline for episode 7-9.

 

Oryx-I, you are the main inspiration for what I am about to say:

All the Star Wars Trilogies should tie in to each other.

Many who I have spoken to, have said or theorized that the "Real"" Phantom Menace is Darth Plagueis (after watching Episode 3) because Darth Maul was to obvious in Episode 1 and so was Sidous. They were both in plain site...no mystery there.....but the Episode 3 should make you ask questions about Episode 1.

Yes, many could argue...."but we never heard of Plagueis in Ep I or Ep II".

For those of you who watched Scream 3, the character Randy in the movie talks about the rules of a Trilogy:

If we further explore this above quote and apply it to the Prequels we find out something about Palpatine's past in Episode 3 and his former master. Hence, we can then start to re-think about the events that transpired between Episode 1 to 3 and when Palpatine killed his former master, either before, during or after training Darth maul.

We can also speculate who really created Anakin, Plagueis or Palpatine? Oddly both names start with the Letter P.

Now that we have three sets of Trilogies:
Prequel Trilogy
Original Trilogy
Sequel Trilogy

Would it not be safe to say that the Sequel Trilogy should somehow tie-in to the Prequel Trilogy:

And as Richard Marquand had stated in 1983 after or during filming of Episode 3:

We're going to meet a "supreme intellect" who controlled Darth Vader and also Luke....hmmmmm...could Plagueis be such a character?

Could Plagueis have created Anakin, whereby Palpatine then "created" Darth Vadar and Plagueis would control the fate of Luke?

That would make for a pretty compelling and stronger sequel trilogy than to have Snoke be some new run of the mill bad guy IMO.

 

I think that was the second line. But yeah I remember how the "neckbeard media" focused on Tekka's 1st line as a shot against the PT but how the second line was based on a PT concept "balance". Mass media virtuous as always!

 

Correction: The Richard Marquade quote was during episode 6....sorry about that.

 

Ahhhhhhh. RM clearly meant Palpatine.

 

Return of the Jedi was released in May25th, 1983. The Richard Marquand interview was in Prevue Magazine, July 1983 after ROTJ was release. Richard was talking about the Final Trilogy (7,8,9)

 

Sorry had sum beer. Difficult to compute.

 

OK, so now that Pablo Hidalgo has tweeted out this latest round of replies and clarifications, we're going to go ahead and lock this thread (and the similar thread in the 8 & 9 forum). This is technically different now than it was before; it was never a completely shut case with no holes before... but now it appears that it is (as much as it can be via Twitter, anyway). Pablo has now covered both the "IS" and the "WAS" ("was Snoke ever Plagueis") angles. The threads will be reopened if we ever hear anything official that supports the Plagueis theory again.