PT Why some people hate "Padme dying of Sadness" ?

Ill bite - I actually love Anakin and Padme of course but Han and Leia are my favorite. I LOVE Leias snarky attitude towards Han like right off the bat. Its clear that he's shocked by her behavior but it doesnt take long for him to respect her. "Still...shes gotta lot a spirit" as he says to Luke in the Falcon when they are heading towards Yavin. At that point when he asks Luke about a "Princess and a guy like me...." you know Han is hooked. Then in Empire they start being snippy with each other but that slowly dissolves and their passions take over. I feel it develops at a natural pace which works for me. Padme and Anakins does a decent job of this too but Han and Leia take the cake, IMO.

 

OT fanbase doesn't know that there is a lot of love stories, when the character dies, losing his beloved. It happens because of strong feelings.

For instance, Stanislaw Lem's "Solaris".
In it, Kris Kelvin's beloved - Harey - killed herself, because he has broken her heart. 10 years later Kelvin still isn't married, suffering from his actions.

Solaris creates a copy of Harey, and in the end of the story Harey asks Snaut to annihilate her (other ways don't work - she tried to kill herself drinking the liquid oxygen), just because her presence torments Kelvin:

"Darling, it was me who asked him to do it. He’s a good man. It’s awful that I had to deceive you, but there was no other way. I ask one thing of you—listen to him and don’t hurt yourself. You were wonderful."

Kelvin's words in the end of the book:
"I didn't believe for a minute that this liquid colossus... could be moved by the tragedy of two human beings".

 

This would have been extremely dramatically unsatisfying. She's a main character and her death is pivotal to Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader. Her death needs to be seen, not implied to have happened offscreen.

Is it really infamous for that? Because I could have sworn it was infamous for precisely the opposite. But I guess if there's anything we know, it's that the prequels are guilty of anything and everything bad that can possibly be said about a series of movies, even things that are mutually contradictory.

Regardless, I think that it was probably a wise decision on Lucas's part to give Padme a dramatically satisfying death scene rather than seeing it as an opportunity to brain tease the audience.

Yes, and a robot programmed specifically to understand human behavior and interact comfortably with humans should be able to understand and be comfortable with the concept of kissing, an extremely common and socially important human behavior. Yet C-3PO does not, because one of the themes of Star Wars is about machines not being able to understand human emotion:

“I think he’s rather disconcerted throughout the film that he’s not human,” Daniels says. “He doesn’t quite understand what kissing is because if there’s one thing a robot isn’t into it’s kissing. So there are times when he is suddenly pulled up short and I think that slightly upsets him."
--The Making of the Empire Strikes Back

The reality of the Star Wars films is a romantic one, not a realistic or scientific one. Ironically, the failure to realize this demonstrates a kind of overly literal, robotic way of thinking. When the Terminator says, "I know now why you cry, but it is something I can never do", do you really not understand what he means? Do you think he's literally just informing John Connor that he doesn't have tear ducts? When Data from Star Trek demonstrates an inability to comprehend figurative language or to master grammatical contractions despite being an extremely sophisticated android, do you shut the TV off in consternation?

 

No, of course. People are totally desoriented. One group of people says that they cannot understand anything (who is in the Trade Federation, who is in the Republic, etc.), and the other group of people says: "Let me spell out the obvious".

It is the result of 20 years of gaslighting, which have lead to bad consequences.

I've watched ROTS in the theater in 2005, when I was 16, and forgot about Star Wars for 14 years. In 2019, when I had enough time, I decided to read the Internet. The Internet is full of nonsense: "George Lucas cannot write and direct", "Star Wars was saved in the editing", etc.

I've realized, that something has happened in the space of the information. Some research - and here it is: Rocket Jump's video, Red Neck Media "reviews", which are used as propaganda even in Russian segment of the Internet, though Russian audience isn't even 5% of the US audience. Chris Suckmann, What Culture, New York Magazine's propaganda how Lucas cannot write dialogues and how Natalie Portman's career was "saved", how dialogues in Star Wars were saved by Marcia / Carrie Fisher / blue people from Avatar, etc.

Propaganda.

 

I personally don't hate it because george lucas wanted to write an old love story with some ''shakespeare tragic'' vibes (not his words just mine and idk if they are accurate so bare with me). Personally i always thought palpatine was drawing her life away while he was trying to give life to vader. Is a wrong theory? Probably. But i like it better than the whole ''broken heart'' stuff. I understand lucas reasoning to the whole scene because it was ''needed'' to fuel anakin's journey to the dark side but i think padme's death could have been better written in my opinion.

 

There is a real-life condition called Broken Heart Syndrome.
Maybe she had that.

 

My theory and I've stated it in here I think, is that Lucas added the "there is nothing physically wrong with her" line so the audience wouldn't completely turn on Anakin. If he indirectly killed Padme that would be a tough thing to come back from. (I know he did lots of other terrible things)

 

Yes, but that usually affects the elderly, not healthy young people in their 20s.

 

You're both right here. I dont think it was as simple as a broken heart but it was along those lines, IMO. It was too much at once to deal with. I didnt see it as weakness but if some do then thats OK. Padme to me was mostly a strong-willed character right up until her tragic end.

 

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It exists, but not only is it simple and easy to diagnose, it is also treatable. Had she not been brought to a high-tech medical facility, I might have bought it as an explanation (even if she is too young to suffer such condition), but as it is, there just isn’t any good explanation for her death (because dying from grief and sorrow is not something that can happen in the span of a few hours).

 

You're probably technically right. If she did die of BHS it wouldnt have happened that quickly. My heart breaks for her character but I also accept her death and it works for me. I dont have a problem with it overall. Its what sets the OT in motion per se!

 

My brother and I talked about this recently.

He had a theory the Palpatine was killing her telepathically. I had also read a FanFic about Palpatine torturing Obi-Wan and Padame.

Also I have heard other theories that she had complications with her labor.

I also don't see it as a "weakness", personally. She was an emotional character who led such an unhappy life. She just had one too many pains. I mean she betrayed by the only person she ever loved.

I always felt sorry for Padame.

 

Padmé needed to a) die onscreen or b) survive which was never going to happen but probably would have if Lucas had written all the scripts before he started making the original. Having her killed offscreen later would have made me hate her end. I think her death is tragic and it is a great scene made even stronger by her emotional funeral.

You do not leave out explaining what happened to such an important character unless planning another set of films that would explain it. Those old enough to remember the 2005 discussion know Lucas' original plan was to have Anakin kill Padmé (force choke and throw her if I remember correctly) but we have this ending which is excellent.

The way their "deaths" are linked as Padmé dies as Vader starts breathing is just brilliant, and that moment alone is better than the whole sequel trilogy.

Would I have wanted another way for her to die?

Not really except if he simply had Anakin "kill her" like he intended as it would make him even more evil and her death more sad (maybe too sad). I don't have any other great suggestion as to how. Palpatine killing her (like many theorize) is one but she certainly needed to die in the film itself and could not have been murdered by an assassin as she had to give birth to the twins. The only other option is because of the birth. I don't see any indication that is not what happened to be honest. Just because the "doctors" could not find anything wrong, doesn't mean nothing was. I also like that it is kept open why she died. Nobody ever said she died of a broken heart in the film (even though it is likely what Lucas intended after changing his mind about Anakin killing her).

And since when do deaths in films like this need to be realistic? This takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far away. I agree it needs to make some sense but it is not like it is based on reality. It's not like the same rules apply there (unless Lucas wants it to). I see people arguing about the likelihood of Padmé dying of a broken heart? (again, something never confirmed in the film). Do you really watch Star Wars because it is likely to happen? I don't and her death is at least 100 times better than those that Han Solo and Luke Skywalker got!

Finally in regard to it ruining that ROTJ line, last time I knew Yoda said those strong with the force could see loved ones long gone so I don't see how that is so problematic. It isn't for me.

 

I think had it been established that taking one of her children away from her would be too much for her, it would have explained why she died between ROTS and ANH and also gave a bit of extra sadness to the fact that Obi-Wan had to separate the kids.

 

I think that's not really a satisfying end, off screen, like that.

 

Yes. She had died not long after Luke and Leia were born. And yes, Leia was very young. Leia had no memories of how Padme looked like. She eventually admitted it to Luke. Her only memories of Padme were feelings that she had briefly sensed. This was revealed in "Return of the Jedi". And that could be explained via Leia's Force sensitivity. Padme dying off-screen after being a major character in the Prequel Trilogy just doesn't work for me. And the idea of Padme handing Luke over to the Lars family on Tatooine and keeping Leia for herself on Alderaan is very abhorrent to me. I find that so unnecessarily cruel. And I find it even more abhorrent that so many saw nothing wrong with this.

Obi-Wan would have had to known which child to take. And considering both were Force sensitive . . . it doesn't make any sense that he would just snatch Luke and allow Padme to keep Leia. If he and Yoda had taken any of the twins away from Padme by force, they would have done this to both kids.

I try to tell myself that I never understood this hullabaloo over Padme's death. Then I find myself wondering if some fans had simply wanted Padme to end her arc as some feminist icon or action heroine. Why? Why is it that so many people continue to insist that female characters in an action film or TV series have to adhere to some one-dimensional trope? They either have to be "damsels in distress", merely "the love interest" or the "kick ass heroine" who can do no wrong. Why must fictional women be constantly placed in these narrative straight jackets?

A great deal of the Star Wars fandom has never been able to accept that Padme could possess both strengths and weaknesses. They're now accusing Rey of being a "Mary Sue", but God forbid that Padme or Leia should not be one. And yes, Leia's weaknesses were on display in the movies, as well. Especially "The Empire Strikes Back". However . . . a lot of fans have consistently refuse to acknowledge Leia's real weaknesses over the years.

 

Yes it did. It meant that Padme was capable of being both strong and weak . . . like the other major characters. She had allowed her emotional state to affect her physical state, while giving birth to twins. A lot of people have allowed their emotions to affect their health. It's nothing new.

I wasn't being "anti-Leia". I was trying to hint that in her own way, Leia had proven she could be both weak and strong. And her weakness, in my opinion, had truly manifested in the form of her anger at Lando Calrissian in "The Empire Strikes Back". Chewbacca shared the same weakness. Both were so busy being angry at Lando for his "betrayal" that they had failed to use their brains and realize the bad situation that their arrival at Bespin had placed him.

Again, apparently the idea of both Padme and Leia possessing weaknesses in their characters is not allowed, yet we're expected to complain about Rey being a Mary Sue. What gives?

 

I'd like to think I can be fine with both. Though it may depend on the situation. Like, for me, similar to how I see Padme's depending the situation. I don't totally agree with it, but I also don't have a harsh issue with it. In a The Last Jedi redo I'd want to see, based on what I've posted in the sequel section:

Yoda would inform Luke, whose development in this is apart of his distance from his human connections (as he has no memories of his mother and no connection to her, unlike his connection with Vader, this weighing on him in the idea that all he is, is the part of him that's his dad and he feels like he has to constantly atone for that part of him, for the crimes his dad committed), that his mother is apart of him too, and tell Luke that what he's forgotten was that the force flows through everything, and that when his mother died, she died because she gave up the last of her life force to ensure her children lived (Yoda sensed that happening). Luke would reach out through the force and finally regain that last memory of his mom, her naming him and touching his cheek, and telling Obi-Wan that there's good in Anakin and he would realize that his resilience, his hope, comes from his mother, that part of him that won't give up.

 

This sounds like you had wanted Padme to be some one-dimensional feminist icon and not a character with both strengths and weaknesses to me.

Leia was not flawless or ideal to me. I don't care what her gender was. I saw her flaws right off the bat. Just as I had noticed Han, Luke, Anakin and Padme's flaws. Yet, very few fans are willing to acknowledge Leia's flaws. Just as many have rarely acknowledged how Luke was about to master the Force during the one year between ESB and ROTJ without any hands on training. I found that unrealistic and I believe it almost made him a Gary Stu.

 

I have heard this theory often, but I don't think I like it much, it puts Palpatine in 'god status' mode. I don't like the idea of Sidious just chilling in his office being able to kill anyone he wants telepathically.