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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why some people hate "Padme dying of Sadness" ?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by antitoxicgamer, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Again…not if we saw at the end of ROTS that her death was imminent, and how and why.

    Of course I stopped “engaging with” Padme when she was reduced to crying in her nightgown.

    And no, “she’s sad and can’t show affection for her daughter in public” would not be the reason she died.

    More like “she was bitten by a worm or otherwise poisoned by Palpatine.” Or a flash forward scene to Imperial troops catching up to her, and a cut to toddler Leia playing elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
  2. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    By the logic presented by the pitch itself, that Leia be able to remember, without force memories, her death can't be imminent. It has to be about 3 or 4 years off, at least. I don't think there's any way you can get that and I think it's forced, just to align with a line that's vague anyway.

    What's wrong someone crying in their nightgown at what she may think is something terrible happening to someone she loves. What else would she wear at night? And you may not. It doesn't change that others may and it doesn't mean that character should have a non committal resolution. Why do ya'll insist on ST tactics?
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    If I “insisted on ST tactics,” I would be arguing that Padme and Anakin should have met for the first time on Mustafar and she should have fallen in love with him after he choked her.

    Padme in ROTS as written is the most ST aspect of the PT. What I am arguing for is moving away from “ST tactics.”

    And a flash forward can happen, Rebels proved that, so Padme’s death would not need to be 3-4 years off. Nothing wrong with insisting that one movie of a trilogy align with other movies, that’s not “forced,” and images should be clear, not “blurred” as you said.
     
  4. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Let's not go crazy. I didn't say you were pulling from the ST wholesale. Moreso suggesting it's a use of ST storytelling tactics. "Just vaguely allude to what may have happened inbetween trilogies."

    Rebels didn't even exist then. And time jumping, in film, several years, I think would feel disjointed and needless. it doesn't add anything character, story or structure wise, to do it, to me.
     
  5. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2020
    Someone had said elsewhere that who Leia is remembering is Bail Organas wife not Padme. Thats how I read it. So maybe she dies when Leia was young. Remember when those lines are said by Leia in Jedi the PT hadnt been fleshed out. It was, id imagine, quite vague at that time.

    Unless Leia got a feeling through the force and the force allowed her to go back to before she was born then there could be no way Leia remembered Padme because as Yoda once said "Strong am I in the force but not that strong" lol. Even the daughter of Vader isnt that strong.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    …and the way Padme died detracts from her character and degrades her character. Even if you don’t think a time jump adds anything, it’s a better option than this detraction and degradation. And it is needed for continuity and consistency, since ROTS only takes place over a few days or weeks. Rebels not existing then isn’t the point—Rebels proved that time jumping can be done in Star Wars, and if it can be done in 2014, it could be done in 2005.

    As far as the crying in her nightgown, if that were a one-off incident caused by her waking up in the middle of the night to a potential tragedy, it would be fine, but as it was, she lost every leadership role she had in the previous movies and was shoved into that old trope.
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  7. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    It doesn't necessarily do either of those. Someone losing a battle to an emotional trauma doesn't mean they're weak, detracted or degraded. So it's not needed for that. It's not they couldn't, but why should they?

    It's not needed for continuity or consistency, as a whole. Rebels is not only a TV series, it also having it doesn't mean it should be done, or that it works for the story, as is.

    She didn't lose her leadership role. It just wasn't important to this movie and not what it's about. Anything she had, which I would've preferred (and more), in part, got cut, and I can see why they would.
     
  8. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Yoda was talking about him aging. Remembering something from when she was born doesn't equal that.
     
  9. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 2, 2020
    Hmmm....youre missing my point. Actually Yoda is referring to dying. Luke says You cannot die to which Yoda replies Strong am I in the force but not that strong etc etc.

    Im just comparing the two. They arent the same. Leia wasnt strong enough in the force to remember her mother the way she did and Yoda wasnt strong enough in the force to not die.
     
  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Leia remembers when Padme died, she says as much. She also remembers what her mother looked like, that she was kind to Leia and that she was sad about something. All this means that Leia lived with her mother for some time.
    That Bail would tell Leia about Padme, that is risky. If Leia says mentions that her mother was Padme and word of that reaches Vader or Palpatine. Then that would be bad.

    Records matter if Bail decides to spinn some tale that Leia lived with her real mother for a few years before he adopted her. Several people here have argued that Bail engage in this massive fraud.

    If you were to suddenly have childhood memories of being the child of say FDR and living in his house. Would that not seem odd to you?
    For Leia to have what she thinks are childhood memories or a mother that died when Leia was born. That would be a contradiction. She has memories she can not account for and that she should not have.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    …to avoid putting Padme into that awful traditional female character trope.

    If you think it’s acceptable for her to be put into that trope we have nothing else to discuss. There is no way in hell I would ever find that acceptable.

    And being the only character in the film to lose a battle to emotional trauma that all the characters have, makes her weaker than all the other characters.

    It would work, unless the entire point was to tell a “Padme the wilting flower” story.

    How can Padme being a leader not be important? That was the only good aspect of her character or at least it’s best aspect.
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  12. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    Who says she has to be? Qui-Gon speaks on Anakin's use, without training, in TPM.
     
  13. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    It doesn't do that. I think viewing movies through tropes and using that to decide what should and shouldn't be done in a story, is needlessly limiting. As I think this pitch shows. Similar to another discussion I've been having with someone else about the time frame of the OT not making sense, as they think the jedi being so viewed as ancient and all that (they're solution to this was that jedi simply age slower, like Yoda, and, I think, because Padme being with Vader would make no sense, Vader would assault her and that's how she'd get pregnant, it was nonsense and needlessly forcing the story to fit their perception of one thing they don't like about the movie, a far more extreme concept though, in comparison to this), you're altering a story structure for the sake of one character, and it's not even adding anything to it, other than altering, maybe, how you view the character. Because I certainly don't view a man or woman who dies from emotional trauma, even if I don't fully buy it and would prefer it to be done differently, like I've said more than once about Padme's death here (even then I wouldn't want her dying at the birth of her children change just for the sake of a vague line in ROTJ), as them being weak or degraded and such. And I'm not gonna let perceived tropes take away from how I watch or engage with a movie, like that, even if I don't agree with it.

    None of the characters, who aren't jedi (who are trained to not attach), have comparable trauma. None of them.
    She's not a wilting flower in the movie, as is.
    Because that's not what the movie is about and Padme isn't the main character. The build of the rebellion got cut, and that not only benefited Padme, but gave more weight to the rebellion as a whole, to me, but it got cut.
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m good being “limiting” if it involves sending that trope to the dustbin where it belongs, especially when there are about 37526 other ways to write a character and as such it’s not “limiting” at all to avoid the trope.

    What was positive about Padme dying of sadness, or what should be viewed as positive about it by those who are more inclined to be annoyed than go “awwww”?
     
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  15. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I think Leia doesn't say that she remembers that. Where's the line, in the movie, that she says that? Leia never says that her mom was kind to her. In the transcript it says that she was kind, but sad. That's not details and it's not saying her mom was kind to her. Leia herself says that what she remembers is images and feelings, not how her mom was to her or that she lived with her.

    That assumes Bail would tell her Padme's name, or explain things to her when she was a child, instead of waiting when she was older.
    I think in the ROTJ that I've seen and/or read the transcript of, no one says that Leia lived with her real mother for a few years.
    Who says it was sudden for Leia? I think I could see a suggestion that she's always had these since she can remember.
     
  16. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    In the way that I've seen suggested it be changed, for the sake of a vague line, I think it's limiting story and structure wise. You must've seen how I'd prefer it be changed, so I don't know what you want from me. You want it changed for your thing. It doesn't make what happened to her degrading or weak and such. This isn't Luke in TLJ where he's made into an incompetent, petulant manchild who disregards the lives of his friends and family. That's what I call weak and degrading. If Luke had died from a broken heart after seeing all his students killed, I may not buy it like I don't really buy it with Padme, but I like to think I'd respect it more than what they did.

    I think it's not about positivity, really, like that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  17. Darthvader1975

    Darthvader1975 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 2, 2020
    Simply because babies that are minutes old do not remember their mother as being very beautiful but sad. They have no recollection. Babies that age can only see a few feet when they are born, it develops as they grow.
     
  18. The Emotional Jedi

    The Emotional Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 18, 2021
    I have never had any problem with the official explanation of Padme’s death. After all, we are talking about Star Wars, not the real world. It's not necessary to formulate at all costs a logical explanation for the death of someone in a universe where sometimes the laws of physics don't even exist. The Star Wars universe is not our universe, not everything has to be realistic and sometimes It's necessary to simply accept things as they are presented to us. Sometimes I get the impression that fans are looking for logical explanations even when it’s not necessary.
    Some have complained that Padme’s death does not fit with Leia's mention in Return of the Jedi. But imagine what would have happened if Padme had not died. It would have been much worse if she had survived, since in the Original Trilogy she's never mentioned and there isn't indication that she's alive. They should have killed her in some Expanded Universe novel or comic book, and that would have been much worse, as she’s one of the main characters in the Prequel Trilogy and the main cause of Anakin’s downfall. Although it’s an explanation created by fans and not present in the films, I think the idea that Leia’s memories are simply Force visions that she misunderstood fits better in the general context of the Saga, because not killing Padme in Episode III would have been much worse, and even doing it in a spin-off would have been a bad idea.
     
  19. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I don't think the believability of this in these movies is that much of an issue.
     
  20. Darth Baga

    Darth Baga Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 21, 2021
    I never had an issue with Padme's death. Let's look at what she was dealing with:
    • She had just given birth to twins (childbirth has historically been a major killer of women).
    • Before going into labour, her husband had just brutally assaulted her with magic.
    • Her husband had just become a genocidal fascist, even sinking as low as to murder children.
    • The system and values she had fought for throughout her life had all just come crumbling down.
    • Palpatine, a man she once respected, was actually the devil incarnate and she played a role in his ascent to power.
    • Beyond the safety of her children, there was very little hope.
    To say she had a rough couple of days would be the understatement of the century. Given the physical complications of a traumatic childbirth, it's not too much of a stretch for her to die after being strangled, especially with all the heartbreak and grief she was dealing with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  21. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    The entire point of the scene in ROTJ between Leia and Luke is that Leia remembers being with her mother and Luke doesn't. Leia lived with her mom. Luke did not. That's the entire point of the scene. Having Padme die right after she gives birth to Luke and Leia makes no sense. It means they were both around her the exact same amount of time; which goes against the very point of their conversation in ROTJ.

    And as much as I hate to say it, I know Leia staying with Padme while living with the Organa's makes no sense. But sending Luke to live with Anakin's step-brother and not changing his last name doesn't make any sense either.

    But not changing Luke's name doesn't undercut a touching moment between brother and sister, Padme dying does. The whole point is that Leia lived with her mother as a small child.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
  22. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2004
    Yet, this is not why she dies in the film.

    Honestly, this is (IMO) what should have lead to her death....yet, the film points out that there's nothing medically wrong with her. No?

    Historically, Padme has been shown/known to stand up against genocide and fascists. Furthermore, she seems like a great patron/supporter of children...so it's incredulous that she gives up on her own children. This is incredibly incongruent in terms of what we know about her character.

    Right, but we know that she's a fighter and a foundational member/creator of what will become the Rebel Alliance.

    Again, this seems like more of a reason NOT to give up and quit on life. Padme bears some responsibility for the sad state of the galaxy and, typically, she has been shown as someone that does not shirk a challenge, fighting the good fight, nor her responsibilities.

    1. The safety of one's children are (typically) paramount in a parent's life. It's odd that a character that was as strong, compassionate, and good as Padme would quit on hers.

    2. Her children LITERALLY were the last/new hope in the galaxy and she (uncharacteristically) crapped out on them and that hope.
     
  23. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    I think Luke's moment has more emotional resonance if his lack of memories is something about him, not the time he didn't have. I think it makes sense if Leia has force memories, considering, after Leia says that Luke suggests Leia's power. Whether intended or not, at the time, I think it can work.

    But at least Luke living off in the middle of nowhere is keeping him from everything.
     
  24. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 19, 2020
    Luke is asking Leia what their mother was like because he never knew her. Leia did know her, for a short time. That's what the dialogue in ROTJ is saying. Luke is asking Leia what they're mother was like because Leia lived with her.

    ROTS does not fit with this and no, I don't want to squint to make it work. I'm not going to do the work for George Lucas.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  25. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 9, 2015
    It's not, literally, saying that. Maybe heavily implying that. But not stating it.

    That you don't want to look at it that way is a you thing. Not my thing. All these movies have these types of issues, to me, all of the OT and PT. So, you trying to draw some kind of line on this situation like this, I think doesn't have a lot of weight. I think it you picking and choosing.