CT Why take this ship into battle?

I have only ever taken the mission of the Rebel Alliance, from its first business meeting with Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Padme, to be to neutralize the Chancellor / Emperor. The Chancellor / Emperor might be an overt emergent symptom of an underlying mayonnaise, but his continued existence is a magnet towards which the people of the place are realigned for the worst. For some significant fraction of population of the GFFA, one's better angels are repelled and point away, and one's worst demons are attracted and point towards. He's like a compass of evil. Yes, evil people exist in the wild. Yes, evil people can group up, align their evil, and be eviler than one evil person. Take out that compass, and the alignments of evil among ordinary people break down into smaller manageable chunks. (Then you hang the most responsible - the most willing, the most eager, to shed their better angels and be bested by their worst demons.)

As far as the Emperor is concerned, there is no spoon thing outside of himself that deserves consideration, that has its own existence, right to existence, purpose, aside from himself. For the Imperials who dutifully read their management emails everyday, and have taken the koolaid, their lives are dedicated to the preservation of the Emperor, who is the Senate Empire.

That's a fun point about the line of fire. A consolation prize is available in the deleted scenes where the Emperor tells Jer Jerrod to turn the death star towards the Endor moon and destroy it. So the death star was able to train its turret. But the rock and a hard place instructional message -something twelve year olds should learn exists- would be diluted if you increase the resolution on actual tactics. High resolution on actual tactics would belong in a simulation.

 

Huh, when did I write what you're quoting me with? Is my sleep schedule that much in need of an overhaul?

 

I’m afraid I’m not following.
-The Rebels highest priority is destroying the Death Star and the Emperor who is on board.
-The Imperials highest priority is protecting the Death Star and the Emperor who is on board.
-The Rebels do not commit all of their fighters to the initial attack, only Red and Gold groups.
-It is unreasonable to assume that the Empire did not commit 100% of their fighters to the initial defense?

 

The Death Star does have guns on its surface though, right? We saw what the ion cannon on Hoth was able to do to a Star Destroyer, so it's probably not unreasonable to assume the Death Star would have similar weapons.

 

Even so, the star cruisers stand a far better chance against the surface canons than they do against the super laser.

On a side note, and this is more a flaw with Star Wars itself. If lasers blasts cannot penetrate a shield from the outside, the converse should apply, as well. Laser blasts should not be able to penetrate a shield when firing outward.

 

Why? It's very common in sci-fi to have ships firing through their own shields (look at Star Trek) - so why would it be problematic in Star Wars specifically?

 

I meant it from a real world perspective. For all the attempts to create a sense of believability, they do fall a tad short in some aspects. I don't think it takes away from the story, just pointing it out.

 

"One way glass" is a thing, where you can see out, but people on the other side of the glass can't see in.

 

Indeed, I don’t think shields being one-way is any less realistic than laser-guns and shields existing in the first place. It’s not even particularly difficult to build a circuit that allows current to flow in one direction but not the other so with a dash of sci-fi magic on top I can buy that shields are calibrated to allow lasers out but not in.

 

I should have elaborated a bit more because we see an inconsistency with shields depending on plot need. Some can withstand blasts, but allow people or ships to pass through, then some apparently block everything, or the X-Wing shields that don't stop anything.

 

I agree that it’s a bit confusing but I believe there are two different types of shields: “Energy shields” which protect against lasers and the like, and “particle shields” which prevent physical matter from passing through. As far as I can tell there’s no rule against a given shield being comprised of a combination of both. And yeah fighter shields might as well not exist as far as the space battles in the movies are concerned but we do see that the Naboo Star-fighter’s shields are able to repel handheld blaster fire, and that the droideka’s shields are also able to repel handheld weapons but not the more powerful blasts of star-fighter weaponry. So it’s kinda like stormtrooper armor in that regard. Better than nothing but getting shot is still not advised. That being said, I would expect the GR-75* to have shields that are relatively effective against TIEs (but like all other ships can worn down with sufficient time and numbers), but wouldn’t last long against a Star Destroyer.

*the “combat” version anyways, even if it’s not a standard feature on the generic transport.

 

I think it was Essential Guide to Warfare or something that mentioned that all modern shield generators produce both ray shields and particle shields...so for all intents and purposes it's just a generic "shield" that blocks everything.

 

Kenner toys, of course. The Kenner Hoth line was the most important line, to me. It was the essence. Possibly, because it was an effective microcosm, most completely filled out, and least interchangeable with other environments (aside from Chewy / droids / Vader).

If you do frame by frame analysis of the moments when the fleet first drops out of hyperspace, you'll count something like 53 candidates for unique fighters, all heading for the death star. It's a fun speculation to entertain that the line of battle vessels had their own interceptor groups (combat air patrol) in form of A-Wings, but that is covered in an old thread. The fact that all these fighters are heading straight for the death star, according to plan exactly as Ackbar explained it in the briefing room, means that rebel alliance management felt that the arteries of the death star were numerous or wide or long or whatever enough to either accommodate that many fighters, or, give that many fighters, even with horrific attrition, a chance to get the job done. So. The Rebel's priority was *not to bring the large vessels to protect them with fighters, but rather to throw a very large number of fighters at the problem of destroying the death star, and, create a perimeter around the death star that could intercept an inevitable Palpatine escape. That *was the plan. And then the plan did not survive contact with the enemy.

The real world analog is static armor plate on a warship. A desperate reach of an analogy could be a 'wall of lead' (tungsten) such as emitted by a CIWS. Lucas star wars has directed energy armaments (offensive weapons), directed energy logistical machinery (tractor beams). It should be ok to imagine directed energy armor (defensive capability). Directable, steerable, pass through.

This shot is immediately after Red Leader says he'll draw their fire. These are the anti aircraft pom pom analogs. These are the guns that Dodonna said would be the tighter defense, more of, if the Empire considered one man fighters to be a threat. In this shot (maybe not this one frame) you can clearly see the venting of gasses from the guns. Obviously it was shot on a sound stage, and the gas venting under atmospheric pressure looks like gas venting under atmospheric pressure. But then there's no telltale white glow around the gun ports which would indicate an air shield. One could make the defensible argument that this whole space is evacuated, and there is no air shield. One could make the opposite argument. I cannot locate the scene in the PT where a ship board cannon is firing through an air shield.

From: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-the-D...ghters-the-first-time-every-time-all-the-time

 

I think the shot @Hernalt mentions is in ROTS during the space battle in the opening.

 

The Rise of the Resistance ride had First Order Canons firing out of shields. I was able to breath no problem when crossing between the turrets and the air shield. Later Resistance forces hit the Star Destroyer opening a hole in the haul. At this point air was sucked out of the room like a vacuum before we got to the other side of blast shields.

 

But fire a bullet from either direction and it'll go through the glass. Unless it's bulletproof glass, in which case, the bullet will be stopped from either side.

 

"Glass? Who gives a $#!T about glass? Who the *cuss* is this?" - John McClane - Die Hard

 

Sadly this ship wasn't popular with Joe Johnston but I really like it, it looks the part for what it was designed for.

 

Perhaps I confused you with the phrase “initial attack”, by which I meant their immediate response to the shields going down(how they know this information could probably be its own thread) and not the Rebels original plan which had quickly become obsolete. So to reiterate my point:
-The Rebels are as committed to the Emperor/Death Star’s destruction as the Imperials are to preventing it. (Debatable but your earlier post seems to indicate you agree)
-When the shields go down the Rebels only divert a (significant ) portion of their fighters to commence their attack. (Fact)
-It is therefore reasonable to assume that the Imperials likewise do not immediately divert 100% of their fighters to the Death Star’s protection.
-The connection between destroying the command ship and buying the fighters time may be related to the Empire’s ability to coordinate which TIEs are assigned to defending the Death Star and which ones are not. I.E. the Imperial equivalent of “Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me” while Grey and Green squadrons continue the general fleet engagement, and indeed can be seen responding to the order to concentrate fire on the Super Star Destroyer.

 

Hm. Without looking (digging up materials), that line by Lando is a elision of what occurs in the novelization. What we get in ROTJ theatrical is a two dimensional projection of a 3D data cube. You can make arguments from it. Parts of the original 3D data cube shine through here and there. In the novel, which would date to Lucas scripts in February 1982, all the groups go in, and some of green group is called back to help with the super star destroyer, after Lando has made a determination, 'maybe you can get some of those TIEs to follow you'. So on this matter of how much of the fighter force resumes its initial primary mission, the original thinking was that most if not all of them do. And then, once some chunk of that mission is figured out and Lando knows the lay of the land, some of them are left to go do other things.

However, your observation does underscore this question. For, even in February 1982, Lucas had Ackbar calling for fighters (in print it turned out to be Green Wing and Green Leader, which in film turn out to be A-Wings) to come help take down the super star destroyer. So even then, what Ackbar requests demands explanation in light of the primary mission. The naive induction is that Ackbar would be aiding the primary mission BY asking for help to take down the super star destroyer.

One way to square things is to add a complementary micronarrative that N TIEs had to remain at the fleet to defend the super star destroyer, whose special sauce was enabling the M TIEs that were chasing the alliance fighters to do their job as best as possible. Another tactical concern is that after Ackbar's order of battle was homogenized because of the about face, there's going to be a cloud like particle distribution of fighter particles. The ability to answer the call in tactical time will decrease slightly as a function of distance from the death star. So, not all P quantity of the original fighters could hope to make the party, after the order of battle had been mixed up. And to guarantee that this line of reasoning is perceived to be on topic, those fighters at greatest distance would have higher chances of running into those Gallifrey isopods.

 

That is a cool ship. Look similar to a few others yet is all it's own. So fits right in with the fleet.

What is it designed for?

 

^ Hard to tell from the little blurry pic, but that might be the one known in WEG as the Corellian Gunboat.

 

Out of universe, it's a hastily kitbashed ship designed to bulk up the Rebel fleet on-screen but not detailed enough to be used as a "hero ship" for VFX shots.

 

Is this the same ship?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHcQ1UxW4AAdC04.jpg

 

This all I’m on board with it’s the ingredients in this “special sauce” that I struggle to identify. The best I’ve been able to come up with so far is that as the battle rages and the number of fighters in M is depleted, it is the command ship’s responsibility to reassign fighters from N to M given that M is the higher priority. For whatever reason this duty may be difficult for another “regular” Star Destroyer to take over in the event of the Super Star Destroyer’s destruction.