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Why was Vader under Grand Moff Tarkin?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by crashdown, Jan 23, 2005.

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  1. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    I don't necessarily agree that he'd "inherit the throne", I rather think if Palpantine had died durring ESB the empire would have fractured rather than fall to Vader intact.

    still it amazes me how people concentrate on this scene and forget the scene right after the Falcon escapes.

    After learning the Falcon had left the ship Tarkin says to Vader:

    "I'm taking an aweful risk Vader, this had better work."

    This to me shows the relationship between the two, i can sum it up in one word: RESPECT.

    It seems to me that after the PT some people have had Vader Love go to their heads.

    Vader releases Motti for a large number of reasons, all well stated and because Tarkin says to, it's not an order Tarkin issues. It's more of a shocked, "wait don't kill him, you've proven your point!" than it is an order.

    Even the very tone the line is delivered with isn't the commanding order type voice Tarkin uses when talking to the officers in that scene, so in my mind there is no question Tarkin respects Vader and Vader respects Tarkin.

    It's as simple as that.
     
  2. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    Well we can't say with certainty what would happen to the Empire if Palpatine had died and Vader had lived. In episode III, Anakin seemed fine with taking over the Empire for himself. I could see Darth Vader taking the mantle of Sith Lord and taking control of the Empire. On the other hand, I could see Vader not really caring about the Empire now that his master was dead. He could simply go into hiding and do more for the Dark Side. That is hard to argue to be honest, but I think it can go either way... Darth Vader is certainly capable of running the Empire.

    As for the rest that you said? I agree. Pretty much what I said earlier. It is all about the tones. You're right about Tarkin and as I said about Vader, his tone was not of fear and subservience. He was saying it in a "Sure...whatever you say..." tone.
     
  3. DarthButt

    DarthButt Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2003
    I wouldn't argue with you at all that Vader and Tarkin shared a mutual respect, Malikail. Vader respected Tarkin's position and his jurisdiction. If it came down to it, I'm sure Vader would impose his will as he saw fit, but he respected Tarkin and he agreed with him on his method of command. When Vader was choking Motti, I don't think his real intention was to kill him anyway. It was more of putting him in his place. Motti didn't fail Vader, nor was Motti under his command at the time. He attempted to insult his belief in the Force. Vader just merely reaffirmed Motti's belief in the Force ;) When Tarkin told him to release him, Vader had made his point, and it was Tarkin's junior officer, so out of respect, he let him go.

    Vader has a lovely way of getting his point across. [face_laugh]
     
  4. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    hehehe, yea he does.

    i actually only quoted that exchange for the throne part. the rest of that is just random rant by me.
     
  5. DarthButt

    DarthButt Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2003
    Same here.. I was just making additional comments about the scene as this scene is the main reason this thread his here in the first place. :)
     
  6. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    Agreed. I always saw it more as a respect thing, than subservience. I'm surprised more people didn't see it that way...
     
  7. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    this is plain wrong. The whole Vader thing saying "as you wish" is unacceptable. Vader's character as we understand it today would have turned to Tarkin and said "oh really?" and start choking him. As far as anyone is concerned, Vader is number 1 because the Emperor is never around. Vader can do what ever he wants. Plus Leia's comments of Tarkin having Vader on a leash implies that Vader is known to be Tarkin's lap dog. Simply not right. really, an easy way to fix that would be when tarkin tells vader to stop choking him, change Vader's dialogue to "i will do what I wish" that shows he is stopping, but he's doing it because he wants to stop and the hell with tarkin telling him what to do.
     
  8. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    I take it you have not been reading the posts?

    Several people have already discussed this in great detail about HOW it makes sense. Its all about respect and the tone of voice. Listen to Darth Vader when he says it. He doesn't sound subservient to Tarkin. His tone is DEFINITLY a "whatever you say..." tone when he says "As you wish..." Watch it again.;)
     
  9. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 12, 2004
    To quote another poster from long ago (I'm sory I forgot who):

    "if Vader killed Tarkin, the Emperor would nail is metal butt to the wall".

     
  10. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    someone is plain wrong and i believe it's you who has completely misinterpreted Vader's character.

    so i suppose by your way of thinking later in the film when the decision is made to let the falcon go and track it, that decission should have also been vaders?

    it wasn't you know.

    it was vader's idea, he suggested it to tarkin and tarkin did it because vader talked him into it.

    yep it's right there on screen all the proof you need.

    Vader isn't a mad dictator and you're painting him to have no control of himself, actually i think your above post is a disservice to Vader.

    if Vader turned on Tarkin in that scene as you suggest the emporer would find out about it and we'd have a new villan for episode 5 as the emporer would have most certainly killed Vader for his insanity.
     
  11. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    Vader is not a "mad dictator" and I am not painting him as one. I am trying to show that Vader should be the one in control. I don't watch ANH because Lucas really had not figured anything out yet. Don't you think if the OT was remade it would be very clear that Vader was the one in control? The Sith are 1-2 in the Empire. I'm not going to type some crap of what reason Tarkin is bossing Vader around. He shouldn't be. Vader was not supposed to be this special guy in ANH when it came out. He is just some uderling and Tarkin can boss him around. So i'm not going to make up some reason and claim to listen and "hear" that Vader's reply is somewhat mocking. ANH isn't the true vision of Star Wars. Let's call it what it is people, it's a mistake.
     
  12. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    no i do not think that if the OT were refilmed this would be any different at all.

    At no point does Tarkin boss him around, what film are you watching?

    Vader also has not athority over Tarkin and it's clear, they do respect each other and see each other basically as equals in a sense.

    Vader is #2 in the empire, he's not a vice president.

    if palpantine dies of a heart attack in episdoes 4 or 5 Vader is not going to be automatically crowned Emporer, it would probably lead to a long civil war and there is a very good chance Vader would not be on the throne at all.

    it's not a mistake at all, it's intentional and brilliant.

    i suppose that you think general Veers attempts to argue with Vader, though he didn't have Tarkin's clout so he didn't push it, were innappropriate too?

    i'm just totally blown away that you saw that as bossing him around, it seems to me you're ignoring the TONE of voice the line is delivered with and concentrating on the words far too much.


    Butt Edit: Nevermind
     
  13. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    Ok...I tried to be nice about it before...can you not read? Several of us clearly explained this topic without going off on a tangent about how ANH isn't a real SW movie.:rolleyes:

    Those scenes do make sense. You're just choosing not to see it. Why should Lucas remake the movie for you when you clearly made up your mind and are too stubborn to see anything else than Vader being a wimp?


    Hmm...thats the only thing I disagree with. I'm pretty sure that Vader would inherit the throne. He seemed pretty intent on taking it with Luke in ESB and in ROTJ he wanted it with Padme. Vader clearly has aspirations to rule the Empire, maybe not for power, but for some midguided attempt to bring "order to the galaxy". I don't think Palpatine would trust anyone else to take over the Empire. MAYBE Tarkin, but I seriously doubt it.

     
  14. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    I didn't say Vader wouldn't end up on the throne, i just think there would probably be power grabs by some Admirals and perhaps local rulers of important planets and a bit of a bloody conflict.

    It is very possible perhaps likely that Vader would maintain control of the imperial fleet and senate and eventually cement his place on the throne as emporer.

    I just don't believe the empire would have passed seemlessly from Palpantine to anyone, not even Vader.

    that's just how i see it, if Palpantine had fallen over dead one day i think Vader would have had to fight for the empire, possibly for the rest of his life.
     
  15. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    2 the posters above:

    Your not choosing to see it. Compare the films TESB and ROTJ to ANH. Look it how the Imperial officers interact with Vader. They fear Vader. Look at how Ozzel tells Vader that Hoth isn't the rebel base. He says it respectfully and Vader still takes offense. In both movies the interactions are extremely different from ANH. In ANH, you have that guy on Tantive IV telling Vader that he won't be able to get answers from Leia. You just don't talk to Vader like that. You speak politely as possible and maybe, just maybe, you won't get Force choked to death. I would have no problems if the same throughout the 3 movies, but it isn't it changes with the start of TESB.
     
  16. DarthButt

    DarthButt Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2003
    I think it would be best to agree to disagree here. ;)
     
  17. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    Oh I see. This I agree with. I'm sure dozens of admirals or whoever would make a grab for the throne. I think legally, Vader has the most claim to it though, but I agree that many would want to take power themselves.

    As for the topic itself...

    I think the reason the admirals and officers treated Vader with disrespect was because it was a sign of the times. The Empire had become overconfident in their dealings with the Jedi. They say Vader as another Jedi. Imagine if a Ewoks conquered Kashyyk(sp?). If they managed to beat all the Wookies, they would be overconfident too. They would treat Wookies like crap, even if Wookies are ten times bigger and stronger than them. Same thing happened with the Empire. Even though Vader has the Force at his disposal, they still would talk down to him because the Jedi are all dead. Who is he to talk to an Imperial offical like that?

    As for ESB and ROTJ, what you said only proves my point. Tarkin was the one that dealt with Imperial matters and other officers. Darth Vader remained in the shadows, obeying the Emperor. I think Vader was never "used" unless the assignment was SUPER tough. Tarkin dealt with running the empire. When he died, Darth Vader was pretty much forced to take over his role in dealing with the Imperial officers. I'm sure in the time between ANH and ESB/ROTJ, Vader made an example of dozens of officers, forcing them to respect him.
     
  18. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 12, 2004
    I have to agree that there is a difference of tone in how the officers address Vader in ANH. But you have to remember something: the officers in ANH (except the tantive crew) were not under Vader's command, the officers in ESB were. And to be quite honest Ozzel was not polite, he was patronizing Vader by talking down to him. After Vader killed him infront of everyone, of course that got more respect out of them, if you take my meaning ;)

    Vader is not Palpatine's official second in command, there is nothing in the movies to support this. Vader is Palpatine's personal agent, and lacks a specific rank. He is roughtly considered equal to the highest imperials, those who answer directly to the Emperor.

    If you don't believe me, read the orginal Return of the Jedi drafts. Jerjerrod was orginaly supposed to have been a Grand Moff, and its quite clear that the power of the Grand Moff rivals that of Vader.:

    11. INT. MAIN BAY Super Star Destroyer
    As the shuttle settles onto the deck of the docking bay, Imperial ground crews rush about securing the craft. The bay is filled with an impressive formation of Stormtroopers, Guards, Star Captains, and Special Elite Units. As one, the thousands of troops snap to attention, and heads turn to the entrance of the bay. The door slides open revealing the dark Lord of the Sith, DARTH VADER. He walks past the troops toward the shuttle craft. ADMIRAL PIETT and several Star Captains are with him. The Admiral turns to Vader.

    PIETT
    Never before have I heard of the GRAND MOFF leaving the planet to greet someone. You are greatly respected, my Lord.

    VADER
    Or greatly feared. The disgusting little bureaucrat is attempting to lay a trap for me.

    PIETT
    He's a fool to think that you would not know.

    VADER
    The Emperor's counsel is no fool. He is very clever and quite dangerous.

    Vader and Piett stop before the Imperial shuttle. The hatch to the shuttle swings down and a colorful platoon of the Imperial Guards lines up outside the ramp. They salute as a thin, evil-looking man descends from the shuttle. He is the GRAND MOFF JERJERROD. Vader salutes him, but Admiral Piett and all the Star Captains kneel before him. An effete covey of dignitaries descend the ramp, acting as if they have never been on a Starship before.

    VADER
    You honor me with your presence, My Lord.

    JERJERROD
    Yes, I know. (looking around) You may rise. All this fuss just for me, an impressive display I must say. (sniffs the air) Yes, well the Emperor sends you his blessing?.

    VADER
    But he still refuses to answer my transmissions.

    JERJERROD
    I'm afraid he's quite too busy.

    VADER
    Then why was I ordered to return?

    JERJERROD
    He feels your prolonged stay in the outer systems has not agreed with you.

    Vader is very angry and it takes all the control he can muster to contain himself. Jerjerrod starts for the hanger entrance. Vader follows.

    VADER
    Don't you toy with me.

    JERJERROD
    All right then?. the Emperor is disturbed with your failure to deal with young Skywalker and he has decided to handle the matter personally. You will supervise the construction of the Battle Stations; a task he feels will be much less demanding.

    VADER
    But, I have all but turned him to the dark side of the force.

    JERJERROD
    The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation. Skywalker is more powerful now, than before your feeble attempts to convert him.

    12. INT. BRIDGE STAR DESTROYER
    Vader, Jerjerrod and company walk onto the vast Star Destroyer bridge.

    VADER
    He can't do this. The boy is mine!

    JERJERROD
    That seems to be part of the problem. It would appear that you still have some feelings for your troublesome offspring.

    VADER
    The only feeling I have for him is hatred.

    JERJERROD
    Then you should be thankful the Emperor has taken such an interest in him. The Emperor will turn Skywalker to the dark side, and then destroy the Rebellion in one swift stroke.

    VADER
    The Rebellion will not be easily crushed, and my son will not be easily turned.

    JER
     
  19. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2006
     
  20. VyndAcharon

    VyndAcharon Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 24, 2006
    It's not canon, but it does go to show Lucas's conceptualization of Vader up through ca. 1982, and that therefore Vader was not Number Two in the Empire during ESB.

    I haven't read the whole thing (cardinal sin, I know), but it's clear to me that Vader was inferior to Tarkin in authority. Tarkin is already a high-ranking uniformed member of the Imperial machine at the end of RotS, when Vader is just a hit man of questionable quality. Sure, he's the number two man in the Sith cult, but that doesn't make him number two in the Empire. Previous junior Sith Lords had little or no legitimate claim to galactic governance. (Dooku came closest, but even he needed a great deal of support.)

    Looking solely at the OT, Vader is never seen to exercise any political power -- he seems coequal among the Death Star council, commands a small task force in ESB, and sets up a reception for the Emperor in RotJ. He's a member of the aristocracy and a Clone Wars veteran, but there must be millions of those. He just happens to be one of the few with a "sad devotion to (an) ancient religion."
     
  21. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2004
    I would sort of agree he has less athority than Tarkin on the death star in ANH, but that's because it's Tarkin's command and he's not just a Moff or an Admiral, he's a Grand Moff, i'm under the impression there are few of those.

    I do agree that Vader's possition as the Emporer's apprentice is completely seperate from any possition in the empire, it's not a Sith Empire and the emporer's power does not derive directly from being a sith lord.

    Point in fact, the Emporer seems to go to great pains to keep the general populace and military from knowing he's a Sith.

    I would differ with how Vader is seen as far as that last bit goes in your last paragraph. There may be a lot of clone wars veterans, but if they know he was a Jedi and in the clone wars he's probably the only one alive. I do not think a former Jedi general would be totally regarded as average among imperial veterans, especially since this lone "Jedi" remained loyal to the Empire.

    your compairison of Dooku to Vader is accurate but if we tie it together Palpantine needs a lot of support also, this is true of all politicians even the Emporer. The emporer is the emporer because he's a politician, not because he's a Sith, the same was true of Dooku's place as leader of the seperatists.

    Vader is simply not a politician, had he not lost on Mustafar Anakin could have become one, but it's a little bit harder for him walking around in an iron lung. Especially since as far as i can tell no one knows he's Anakin Skywalker, last of the loyal jedi and hero of the clone wars, that would help alot with establishing his credibility and esteem in this area.
     
  22. Obi-WanKenobi06

    Obi-WanKenobi06 Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 15, 2006
    I don't think anyone is arguing what Lucas' original intentions were, but it is painfully obvious that they've changed. Look at the PT alone. It's obvious that he switched some stuff that was said in the OT.

    My initial point is, if you think about it, the scene(s) in question DO make sense. A lot of people are just like "Nope. Somehow Tarkin is above Vader" or "Vader is a wuss. De-canonize ANH." When none of that is necessary...
     
  23. DarthButt

    DarthButt Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 11, 2003
    Malikail, I agree with almost everything you said in your last post.

    The only thing I would argue is that Vader having the ability to lead the government. You post incinuated that Vader wouldn't be able to become Emperor based on his looks. Well look at Palpatine. He did it. His looks changed as well. But I would say that Vader's personality and role in the grand scheme would not be a role that would be necessary to replace Palpatine as emperor. Palpatine was a leader and a manipulator. He was great at what he did. Very charismatic. He was someone people wanted to follow (at the time of ROTS which carried over to the latter years of the New Order); Vader was more of an enforcer. Granted he was the only one who could succeed Palpatine, but he wouldn't have been able to do the PR job Palpatine was able to do.
     
  24. Darthdias

    Darthdias Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 12, 2004
    "None of us said that Vader is Palpatine's official second in command. But if Palpatine wanted anyone to take over after him, I'm sure it'd be Vader over a Moff."

    Oh, I agree. But just because Vader is the heir, doesn't make him the second in command.

    "While all of that is interesting, none of it was shown in the movies. Thus, it's not canon. Vader bowing to a moff? HAH!"

    Not to be nitpicky, but Jerjerrod was a Grand Moff in this draft. A Moff is what he became in the finished movie. There is an important distinction. There are hundreds of Moffs (I think) and only like a very few Grand Moffs. And Vader didn't bow, Piett did. Vader would only bow to the Emperor.

    I'm not saying that Tarkin is above Vader, that would be impossible considering that Vader answers to the Emperor only. But, in my mind at least, so does Tarkin. Many will disagree but I consider them to be on equal footing. Vader is like the head of the Gestapo, while Tarkin heads the political branch.
     
  25. Malikail

    Malikail Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2004
    i wasn't saying he couldn't do it, i was saying he had a harder road than say Dooku with the seperatists. Also at no time in the OT is Vader depicted as having any real political following. It's not that Vader couldn't succeed the emporer, but if he emporer had just fallen over dead between episodes 5 & 6 we'd have Vader needing to first secure a political base, then fight a bloody revolution against the powerful Moffs and senators that would make a power grab. As a Sith Palpantine has only one Heir, Vader who he tries to replace with Luke. But as a politician we don't really see even Vader clearly established as his political Heir, that doesn't mean Vader couldn't take control of the empire. It means he'd have to fight for it and would have a longer road than he would if he were political already, but yes i do think his appearance would play against him in that. Simply, being in that suit would make that harder than it would be if he weren't in the suit.
     
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